Predetermination and God's Sovereignty

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by jiggerj

 

jiggerj - www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm too burned out to get deep into anything today. This working for a living is quite exhausting. At 58 years old, my job is the equivalent of jogging over 2 miles on my hands everyday.

To jump on topic here, THIS life is my hell. Anything after will be a breeze.

I understand. Being a kid in the summer stuck at home with nothing to do can be pretty rewarding

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by veritasmortis

 

Okay. But am I still going to Hell?

I'm going to jump in out of turn.No you aren't going to hell(no one is)...and obviously no it isn't because you don't believe in it.It is because it is the Truth.The subjective -objective volleyball will be bounced around ad nauseum unless this is nipped in the bud.The Truth is there is no eternal punishment by torture in hell.

Ask those that disagree with you and condemn you to hell where they get that and 9 times out of 10 they will say the bible...which is 100% false.It is nowhere in there just ask them to prove it....they can't.For them that is the proof (when there is none) while other folks just know it and need no proof.This is a very good method to know whether the person you are communicating with is credible(like you need that).Best of luck..btw ... there is no heaven "somewhere out there" after you die either...of course that's a whole other ball of wax on wax off.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
I assume that the Christians in this section believe that every event in the universe, including each and every person's actions, thoughts and feelings

most Christians I know don't believe this at all.Its a mishmash of convoluted doctrines that make no logical sense.They " say" they believe God is sovereign yet believe man has free will to "choose " or reject salvation....impossible

Originally posted by HarryTZ
(and the consumption of the Forbidden Fruit which allowed for sin to exist), has been predestined by God.

the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a metaphor for something completely different than what most think.There was no juicy apple or pomegranate hanging off it.Eve sinned(was imperfect) before she "ate" of the tree.Sin means missing the MARK of perfection...imperfection....and in real world terms .. immaturity.Nothing is "born" mature ...it must grow.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
This would have to include every sin, every wrongdoing, and every moral infraction of each person. And we know that if you sin and don't repent, you go to Hell.

I covered this in the previous post...and of course this is patently wrong and the most heinous doctrine believed and propagated by man.It is the true sign of utter depravity to believe it.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
But if God predetermined every sin that each human will perform, why is it fair to condemn him to everlasting torment?

you "hear" much better than you may realize.This makes perfect sense because it is The Truth.Well done grasshopper.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
If I have absolutely no choice over anything that I do, than I cannot have ever done anything that would justify my going to Hell. That would mean that every man and woman is innocent, because they had no choice in anything that they ever did, thought, or felt. And none of us deserve eternal punishment (not that we would in any case anyway).

Just something to think about.

You are correct with some holes however this is the crux of the matter.This is where it gets extremely difficult.This is the biggest hurdle anyone will jump over(more accurately lifted over)..Man does not have free will FREE of causation.EVERYTHING is caused by The Creator God who is 100% sovereign(there is no other kind).

Yes it all looks chaotic and entropic however everything has a purpose mankind just has a very very poor POV.Obviously the implications of this are vast and mostly unknowable.The bottom line is mankinds fate is all in Fates hands and not their own.That is some VERY GOOD News.As the Borg say..resistance is futile.Try to enjoy this very short part of the trip.

reply to post by Rex282

most Christians I know don't believe this at all.Its a mishmash of convoluted doctrines that make no logical sense.They " say" they believe God is sovereign yet believe man has free will to "choose " or reject salvation....impossible

You know what doesn't make any sense? Thinking that we're all robots and toys being played with and not having any free will at all to exercise. If we weren't allowed any free will, there wouldn't even be a reason for us to be here. God would have just created us like him in order to live with him where he is now and be done with it.

God doesn't choose to force anyone to love him and worship him. No, you are definitely allowed to make that choice for yourself. That's why you are here.

The only difference is that God knows which way we're going to choose beforehand.

Originally posted by Deetermined
You know what doesn't make any sense?....... ......

The only difference is that God knows which way we're going to choose beforehand.

edit on 29-6-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

I'll present some terms and definitions of characteristics of a sovereign"God".Which by definition means there can only be one God
Omnipotent-all powerful meaning this God does everything and there is nothing this God can't do and nothing it didn't do.
Omniscient-all knowing this God Knows everything and this knowing is the root of its will. Whatever it wills/ thinks IS...it happens.
Omnipresent-This God is always "present..which in time terms means without time.. in space terms means everywhere.

When God "knows" everything that means he is causing it to happen.That doesn't mean he is an observer standing outside of time watching all the mechanisms of its creation play itself out by it's own will.There is nothing that can resist his will.To say God has no control over someones will goes against his omniscience and omnipotence.Mans will does not and cannot override Gods will.

The general consensus is not having a free will makes man an automaton ...however... that isn't true.Automatons don't have a will.Humans do.Robots are programmed.Our will is a "mechanism" which we make choices "though".Our will and it's choices are not programed it is in accordance to the causes God is causing to make an effect that GOD wills.The premise of cause and effect.

The faulty logic of having a free will in a universe with a sovereign God leads to ...we must have free will to freely chose to LOVE God.I would bet most people haven't a clue what that "love" even means.That fact is we couldn't Love God unless God caused it.God IS LOVE.

We are not the originators of "our" love.God is only giving us what we don't posses.An analogy(and of course they all break down) is a father giving his 4 year old son money to buy the father a present for the fathers birthday.The son has no money of his own only what the father gives him then the father receives what he gave his son back in the form of a present.Yes the son could go spend the money on candy but the father is still producing the money to buy the candy.The transaction to happen is dependent on the father...and of course a humans father will could not cause the son to buy jolly rancher firestix but the sovereigns God would because he caused the son to enjoy them.

It makes no sense that if there is a sovereign God that we can do ANYTHING of ourselves.The scriptures is a clear witness on that fact. Yet the many who claim they believe the scriptures and God blatantly deny it and think THEY are the source through their "free will".Therefore without their free will THEY could not CHOSE to be saved and therefore THEY love God because of their FREE will.This is faulty logic at best.This falseness leads them into all falseness because the basis of their "faith" is based on a wrong premise.The DO NOT have a will ...free of causation.It is impossible in a universe created by a sovereign God.

Of course one of the solutions is to not believe there is a sovereign God..problem solved .. you have free will.But of course that is even more faulty logic.The fact is God is causing ALL things according to GODS purpose and will whether anyone believes it or not.He doesn't seem to be hindered by any this belief for or against(both are against)

.If God is sovereign all things are being controlled by God.There are no other options.And here is the beauty of that.If I had a free choice of how I'd want things to be I'd choose to be controlled by the will of the perfect God over my natural inclination to "my will be done". I am imperfect..and even if I was more perfect than imperfect those flaws are going to break the machine eventually.God has solved that inevitability.

God is causing everything to happen he knows the results of everything and it is good.He made man imperfect(immature) and it IS GOOD.He knows the tail from the head.Eternity isn't a destiny it is infinite.We will never be perfected(matured) we will always GROW toward perfection(love).This is the Golden ratio you fear so much and confounds your carnal mind.

ALL things are being caused by the sovereign God.He alone is all wise.He is the creator of all things including Love.We can only love God because he loves us and is causing it.It is futility to think it can work any other way.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
I assume that the Christians in this section believe that every event in the universe, including each and every person's actions, thoughts and feelings (and the consumption of the Forbidden Fruit which allowed for sin to exist), has been predestined by God. This would have to include every sin, every wrongdoing, and every moral infraction of each person. And we know that if you sin and don't repent, you go to Hell.
But if God predetermined every sin that each human will perform, why is it fair to condemn him to everlasting torment? If I have absolutely no choice over anything that I do, than I cannot have ever done anything that would justify my going to Hell. That would mean that every man and woman is innocent, because they had no choice in anything that they ever did, thought, or felt. And none of us deserve eternal punishment (not that we would in any case anyway).

Just something to think about.

I take it that you believe in the absolute providence of God? If that is the case where does free will come into play?

Originally posted by Deetermined

You know what doesn't make any sense? Thinking that we're all robots and toys being played with and not having any free will at all to exercise. If we weren't allowed any free will, there wouldn't even be a reason for us to be here. God would have just created us like him in order to live with him where he is now and be done with it.

How does us having free will add 'reason' to our existence here?

Originally posted by guitarplayer

Originally posted by HarryTZ
I assume that the Christians in this section believe that every event in the universe, including each and every person's actions, thoughts and feelings (and the consumption of the Forbidden Fruit which allowed for sin to exist), has been predestined by God. This would have to include every sin, every wrongdoing, and every moral infraction of each person. And we know that if you sin and don't repent, you go to Hell.
But if God predetermined every sin that each human will perform, why is it fair to condemn him to everlasting torment? If I have absolutely no choice over anything that I do, than I cannot have ever done anything that would justify my going to Hell. That would mean that every man and woman is innocent, because they had no choice in anything that they ever did, thought, or felt. And none of us deserve eternal punishment (not that we would in any case anyway).

Just something to think about.

I take it that you believe in the absolute providence of God? If that is the case where does free will come into play?

Two FREEWILL choices/scenarios, to create SOMETHING/ANYTHING, positive or negative in which each has an outcome, such as building a dam, and potencially destroying the villiages down river by relocation/or allocating of the water and CREATING say the opportunity for irrigation AGRA crops. This is not the same as Gods creation of this world and inhabitants but comes close to describing its power to create or destroy. The other, the ability BY CHOICE to take ones own life if found to be unsatisfactory (this one ultimately is the freewill functioning at its best YOU are allowed to kill your vessel).

reply to post by vethumanbeing


It was the freewill of Satan that brought inequity into this universe it was the freewill of Adam and Eve that brought sin into the earth. God is not the originator of sin.

Originally posted by guitarplayer
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

It was the freewill of Satan that brought inequity into this universe it was the freewill of Adam and Eve that brought sin into the earth. God is not the originator of sin.

Was Satan the creator of God, or was God the creator of Satan? Freewill by definition means FREE-WILL to do as thou WILT by the whole of the law, LOVE is the LAW LOVE UNDER WILL (God ALLOWS all forms of sin to exist as they are tangient they drive, fuel the positive; a necessary negative force has to exist to cause change any change good or evil).

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Evil does NOT NEED to exist. There's going to come a time when it's all done away with forever.

reply to post by Deetermined


But of course when that happens, our ideas of good and bad will shift drastically. Morals are not absolute, they depend on the human psyche.

reply to post by Rex282

Eternity isn't a destiny it is infinite.We will never be perfected(matured) we will always GROW toward perfection(love).This is the Golden ratio you fear so much and confounds your carnal mind.

That is absolutely not true.

Once this life is over, we will know exactly who and what perfection is. There is no need to mature and grow towards it. There will be a clear understanding at the time of our death from this human flesh. The minute we shed our corrupted flesh and inherit our incorruptible bodies, we will know.

reply to post by HarryTZ

How does us having free will add 'reason' to our existence here?

It allows us to choose our eternity or non-eternity.

What doesn't make sense is that we were put on this earth to play out God's plan for no other reason than to be a puppet in his play.

That is not why we are here.

We are here to choose our own eternal destiny.

reply to post by Deetermined


So either Heaven or Hell? What's so great about Heaven anyway? And what's so bad about Hell?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Rex282

 

Eternity isn't a destiny it is infinite.We will never be perfected(matured) we will always GROW toward perfection(love).This is the Golden ratio you fear so much and confounds your carnal mind.

That is absolutely not true.

Once this life is over, we will know exactly who and what perfection is. There is no need to mature and grow towards it. There will be a clear understanding at the time of our death from this human flesh. The minute we shed our corrupted flesh and inherit our incorruptible bodies, we will know.

Our natural state is body-less. Our human bodies aren't corrupt, however, and it's unfortunate that you think that they are. This life is a gift, stop treating it like a waiting room.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by Deetermined

 

But of course when that happens, our ideas of good and bad will shift drastically. Morals are not absolute, they depend on the human psyche.

You don't get it. When we are given knowledge of what the truth is, there will be no more "human psyche".

We will be shedding our human fleshly bodies in order to inherit our incorruptible heavenly bodies.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by Deetermined

 

But of course when that happens, our ideas of good and bad will shift drastically. Morals are not absolute, they depend on the human psyche.

You don't get it. When we are given knowledge of what the truth is, there will be no more "human psyche".

I understand this. But what I don't understand is why you are so sure that you're religion leads to truth and others don't.

reply to post by HarryTZ


It's called faith. Faith given to me by the Holy Spirit of God, but it takes building a constant relationship with Him to see through everything else out there, because the deceivers are using God and his name to twist his message, just like the deceivers were doing back in the days of the Old Testament.

The Bible tells us a lot about the ones who were using divination and visions to claim that God was true, unfortunately, the messages weren't from God, they were from fallen angels. That's why God told people not to dabble into mysticism. Dabble in it and you risk being deceived by the desires of your own heart instead of using faith to know who God really is. You only need the Bible and the power of the Holy Spirit, but many are choosing other ways, only thinking they're finding God in all of their visions by using mysticism.

John 10:1-9

1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Unfortunately, mysticism has crept it's way back into the Christian church too, just like the days of old. But God won't allow it to continue much longer, just like he didn't before.

reply to post by Deetermined


I really don't see the difference between seeing 'the Holy Spirit of God' and 'divining'. Plus, who are you to judge others as deceived? You're just as deceived as they are if you think you have that ability. To me, you're an unconscious incarnation who has put their entire trust in a flawed belief system.