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Predetermination and God's Sovereignty

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posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 09:25 PM
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I assume that the Christians in this section believe that every event in the universe, including each and every person's actions, thoughts and feelings (and the consumption of the Forbidden Fruit which allowed for sin to exist), has been predestined by God. This would have to include every sin, every wrongdoing, and every moral infraction of each person. And we know that if you sin and don't repent, you go to Hell.
But if God predetermined every sin that each human will perform, why is it fair to condemn him to everlasting torment? If I have absolutely no choice over anything that I do, than I cannot have ever done anything that would justify my going to Hell. That would mean that every man and woman is innocent, because they had no choice in anything that they ever did, thought, or felt. And none of us deserve eternal punishment (not that we would in any case anyway).

Just something to think about.




posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 09:36 PM
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People that go to hell go there because they want to. When they get there (if there is such a thing), they probably dont.regret it. Hell is a conscious choice of preference.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by smithjustinb
 

Yes, I believe that we create our own experience upon death. But I don't believe that we can suffer, because the moment that we begin to feel any sort of pain we cease the experience and create a new one. And then eventually, we arrive at the Godhead, the Essence, the One, whatever you want to name it.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by HarryTZ
 


Some things are predestined and some are not. It's a good thing God already knows which way we're going to decide either way.

I don't know about you, but my biggest mistakes in life have always had a tendency to run in threes. Whenever I make a poor choice, I find history repeating itself with an almost identical situation coming back to face me again. Usually, by this time, I've realized that a different choice needs to be made to make the situation disappear for good, so I don't have to face it again.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by HarryTZ
 


Some things are predestined and some are not. It's a good thing God already knows which way we're going to decide either way.


How can only 'some things' be predestined and others not? Does God only have partial control of the universe?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44


I don't know about you, but my biggest mistakes in life have always had a tendency to run in threes. Whenever I make a poor choice, I find history repeating itself with an almost identical situation coming back to face me again. Usually, by this time, I've realized that a different choice needs to be made to make the situation disappear for good, so I don't have to face it again.


Yes, such a horrible habit we humans have, to put ourselves in the same insufferable situations over and over and over again.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 09:59 PM
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Serious Calvinistic argument there.
Calvinism is almost a cult demanding they know the mind of God and others should believe their belief. Many Calvinist preach Calvinism before Christ
God cant be put in a box
This fella argues against pure Calvinisn convincingly
www.themeetinghouse.com...

There are many forms of Christianity and most are wrong.
The true Christianity points to Jesus on the cross to forgive all sin, belief in Him is the message



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:05 PM
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reply to post by HarryTZ
 



How can only 'some things' be predestined and others not? Does God only have partial control of the universe?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44


Personally, I believe the verse you quoted to be one of those things that defines "predestined".

The rest I just call "foreknowledge".



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by borntowatch
There are many forms of Christianity and most are wrong.


Just because you don't believe in it doesn't make it more 'wrong' than you.



The true Christianity points to Jesus on the cross to forgive all sin, belief in Him is the message


Sin which was willed by God, for God's entertainment. What other purpose could God, who is already utterly perfect and unchangeable, have in creating man?



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:07 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by HarryTZ
 



How can only 'some things' be predestined and others not? Does God only have partial control of the universe?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44


Personally, I believe the verse you quoted to be one of those things that defines "predestined".

The rest I just call "foreknowledge".



But that still doesn't nullify my point. Christianity is so contradictory to its message that it's not even funny.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by HarryTZ
I assume that the Christians in this section believe that every event in the universe, including each and every person's actions, thoughts and feelings (and the consumption of the Forbidden Fruit which allowed for sin to exist), has been predestined by God. This would have to include every sin, every wrongdoing, and every moral infraction of each person. And we know that if you sin and don't repent, you go to Hell.
But if God predetermined every sin that each human will perform, why is it fair to condemn him to everlasting torment? If I have absolutely no choice over anything that I do, than I cannot have ever done anything that would justify my going to Hell. That would mean that every man and woman is innocent, because they had no choice in anything that they ever did, thought, or felt. And none of us deserve eternal punishment (not that we would in any case anyway).

Just something to think about.


There is a difference between foreseeing and predetermining. The creator has given us free will, not the ability to be unpredictable. With more advanced computers, analysts are getting better and better at predicting the future to a certain degree.

seattletimes.com...


The Seattle Times, Seattle Times staff
Called “predictive policing,” the software uses data going back to 2008 to predict where crimes are likely to take place on a certain date and time.


Imagine something similar to that, but on a scale beyond human or any mortal(or lesser immortal) beings comprehension.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by HarryTZ

How can only 'some things' be predestined and others not? Does God only have partial control of the universe?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44



God has partial control of man, it seems He has created us in His image with the power of choice.
Love, if God is love, does not violate choice.

John 6.44 is such a small part of scripture to base systematic theology on

www.examiningcalvinism.com...



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:21 PM
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Maybe this was aimed more toward those Christians who are dead certain that our lives are predetermined.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by borntowatch
There are many forms of Christianity and most are wrong.


Just because you don't believe in it doesn't make it more 'wrong' than you.



The true Christianity points to Jesus on the cross to forgive all sin, belief in Him is the message


Sin which was willed by God, for God's entertainment. What other purpose could God, who is already utterly perfect and unchangeable, have in creating man?


So God is the author of sin....hmmmm



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by borntowatch
There are many forms of Christianity and most are wrong.


Just because you don't believe in it doesn't make it more 'wrong' than you.



The true Christianity points to Jesus on the cross to forgive all sin, belief in Him is the message


Sin which was willed by God, for God's entertainment. What other purpose could God, who is already utterly perfect and unchangeable, have in creating man?


So God is the author of sin....hmmmm


Who else is there as the great author stepping up? God of course as it created everything and ALLOWS IT (us as its expression, to my mind very tolerant as a creator being). Me, in its shoes, pave the planet.
edit on 26-6-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:37 PM
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Originally posted by HarryTZ

Maybe this was aimed more toward those Christians who are dead certain that our lives are predetermined.


Maybe it's all semantics.

Maybe the ones that God gives to Jesus are the ones that God already knew would accept him.

It's easy to say that everything is predestined when God already knows everything that's going happen and every choice that going to be made from the beginning.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:45 PM
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reply to post by HarryTZ
 

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44
Jesus was explaining to the audience that he was the person who was going to be doing the raising up when there is a resurrection.
He was not giving an exposition on how God makes people do things.
That usually gets blown out of proportion by people who like to think that they are already saved based on their even having an interest in Jesus.
Really all he was saying is that people wouldn't be drawn to him unless God had already chosen him to play that key role in our salvation.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by HarryTZ
Sin which was willed by God, for God's entertainment. What other purpose could God, who is already utterly perfect and unchangeable, have in creating man?


Are you willing to absolutely stop being you? I am sick of hypocritical atheists, and others who bash the Creator for the faults of men and women. If someone really faults the Creator for sin, then they should walk the talk, and take steps to give up their own free will.

Then again though, I remember a Philosophy class a few years back that was mostly, if not all lefty students(instructor was a communist, but more so a spiritual altruistic communist so I can kind of respect that). The Professor said something about race(mostly European ethnic class make up except 1 Hispanic young woman in the class) in the class due to regional tension because of an influx of illegals. After he said what he said, he had a slight chuckle, and the entire class(except the Hispanic gal and me) started to chuckle.

I learned two things that day:

1) Most leftists are already halfway gone, in regards to purging themselves of free will

2) Never let a Philosophy Professor realize that your not a cackling head, lol(was still the most enjoyable, and educational class I had at that community college).

In closing:

The type of rationale your trying to espouse, is similar to a teen complaining about getting a speeding ticket, and then later blaming their parents for giving them the keys to the car in the first place.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Maybe this was aimed more toward those Christians who are dead certain that our lives are predetermined.


Maybe it's all semantics. Maybe the ones that God gives to Jesus are the ones that God already knew would accept him.It's easy to say that everything is predestined when God already knows everything that's going happen and every choice that going to be made from the beginning.


You realize that if you are part and particle of God, you also know everything, your purpose, your past. My problem is having to re-learn everything I signed up for in this life, and why I had to forget everything before incarnation. That does not sound like progression of my soul more a thwarting, and Im really done with the game playing.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by korathin

Originally posted by HarryTZ
Sin which was willed by God, for God's entertainment. What other purpose could God, who is already utterly perfect and unchangeable, have in creating man?


Are you willing to absolutely stop being you? I am sick of hypocritical atheists, and others who bash the Creator for the faults of men and women. If someone really faults the Creator for sin, then they should walk the talk, and take steps to give up their own free will.

Then again though, I remember a Philosophy class a few years back that was mostly, if not all lefty students(instructor was a communist, but more so a spiritual altruistic communist so I can kind of respect that). The Professor said something about race(mostly European ethnic class make up except 1 Hispanic young woman in the class) in the class due to regional tension because of an influx of illegals. After he said what he said, he had a slight chuckle, and the entire class(except the Hispanic gal and me) started to chuckle.

I learned two things that day:

1) Most leftists are already halfway gone, in regards to purging themselves of free will

2) Never let a Philosophy Professor realize that your not a cackling head, lol(was still the most enjoyable, and educational class I had at that community college).

In closing:

The type of rationale your trying to espouse, is similar to a teen complaining about getting a speeding ticket, and then later blaming their parents for giving them the keys to the car in the first place.






Well if you believe in free will than this post isn't even really for you anyway.
But I'm not bashing anything, just pointing out a fallacy in the logic of many Christians.



posted on Jun, 26 2013 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by HarryTZ

How can only 'some things' be predestined and others not? Does God only have partial control of the universe?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44



God has partial control of man, it seems He has created us in His image with the power of choice.
Love, if God is love, does not violate choice.

John 6.44 is such a small part of scripture to base systematic theology on

www.examiningcalvinism.com...


No. You remember Jonah right? The man who tried to ignore God and was swallowed by a whale, and then spat up near where God told him he had a task to do.

-
If that isn't the biggest red flag that say's YOU HAVE FREE WILL, I don't know what to say. You can't get more obvious. Here you have man who God asks him to do something. He say's no, and God chooses to use external coercion to compel him to do something.

www.biblegateway.com...
edit on 26-6-2013 by korathin because: (no reason given)





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