In 2009, Ed Snowden said leakers "should be shot." Then he became one

Originally posted by Archie
I completely agree and this is a really good point but I think you have to be careful in making that analogy. I don't believe that this is a 'front' for anything.

I'm keeping an open mind about it myself.

It is giving the people some of the information they need to overthrow the government but, when the time comes, I don't think those same people would be stupid enough to elect an alternative government that wasn't going to be in America's best interests or that would usurp her sovereignty.

I am not in favor of overthrowing anything. All the instruments to operate a functioning democracy are in place in America. A few laws need to be repealed for sure. There should be a tax on Wall Street transactions and some other regulations on tax shelters and offshore asset shelters, but America has the tools it needs already in place.

I don't think a revolution is necessary. I pray that I am right. Revolution is very messy. Some 600,000 Americans died in the Civil War. A revolution in the 21st century might go completely out of control.

When you talk about elections, though, that's politics and very tricky.

Although it would be truly ironic if that did happen.

It's happened before, with huge majorities, like 98%.

Originally posted by 3n19m470
reply to post by neo96

 

It's called infiltration. You gotta let the bad guys think you're on their side if you ever expect them to accept you. I'm sure he suspected they were listening, but could pretend that he was speaking candidly and somewhat anonymously.

It's just a possibility... I'm just saying, you don't know how long he'd been planning this. Chat logs cannot be proven to be the genuine thoughts of the person typing. Some people just want to fit in, others just want to argue...others may be purposely covering their tracks by spreading disinfo, and then others have their own agenda for saying what they say online.

Then that raises the possiblity that Snowden himself is spreading 'disinfo'.

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by ipsedixit

I am not in favor of overthrowing anything. All the instruments to operate a functioning democracy are in place in America.

Sorry, my poor choice of words. I agree.

Originally posted by neo96

Originally posted by reeferman
reply to post by neo96

 

In 2009, Ed Snowden said leakers "should be shot." Then he

saw just how corrupt the government truly is...

with new information comes a new mindset..

Actually no because government always out does itself with the 'next big news' has already been made just not reported yet.

Yes, you need to keep in mind the other, more likely possibility is that, like anyone, snowden is a different person than he was 4 years ago. He may very well have believed every word in the chat logs, but after being on the inside of the machine, he saw it worked much differently than he has had first ascertained...it happens all the time. Look at what's happening to our soldiers in the middle east.

reply to post by neo96


What, you mean on the chatlogs?Yeah, that was the point, in this scenario, he had to spread disinfo. That's what you have to do to infiltrate something that is always watching. It was a necessary evil, perhaps...it remains to be seen, but so far it appears that his concerns and reasons for taking his action might have been for just reasons. I'm withholding judgement and will only speak hypothetical for now, because I trust nobody. And because its not my job to make that particular decision right now so I have that luxury.

Or did you mean to say that Snowden is spreading disinfo with his leaks and that the leaks themselves are not factual and represent disinformation? Or is he spreading it in some other way that I have not yet perceived?

You'll have to forgive me, I'm just trying to figure out this whole thing for myself. It gets rather confusing at times (for me).

reply to post by 3n19m470


What do I mean?

The current government could have sent Snowden themselves the only thing I am saying is Snowden may not be what he seems.

Governments sacrifice all the kings men all the time they are notorious for that.

reply to post by ipsedixit



You may be correct. However, it seems to me that if you look at past history as any kind of predictor of future history, what we will end up getting is more quadrennial events where we can have the freedom of choice: The Rock, or The Hard Place.

Thank God for "Democracy".

The real issue is the parasite that has gained control of our government. Like T. Gondii.

reply to post by neo96


neo96, do you even remember anything from the start of the disclosures? 3 weeks; almost a month ago?

Did you already forget Clapper?

Snowden's disclosures proved Clapper lied to Congress.

You saying C-Span only serve to discredit your reply.

Clapper said he tried to be "least untruthful" after the disclosure contradicted his Wyden response.

And the Arstechnica title is not an equal comparison to Snowden's leak.

Arstechnica lowered their standards with that article.

He gave NOTHING away. Really! This was all old stuff everyone knew. He's not a "Player", he's more of a- confused traitor. Why did this guy even make the news?

Did somebody say traitor?



Okay, so here are just a few examples of what your little double agent, traitor, whateverthef*ck he is supposed to be, has achieved to date...

Anti-Hacking Bill Aiding Verizon Delayed by Snowden Leaks

Lawmakers have stopped advancing cybersecurity legislation until at least September as they gather more information about the National Security Agency surveillance programs and hear from constituents to assess the political fallout, Senate and House members from both parties said in interviews.

There’s very little faith in the institutions of government right now,” said Representative Tom Cole of Oklahoma, a Republican party leader. “If you look like you’re not sufficiently critical and sufficiently vigilant in defending people’s liberties I think they’ll express that at the polls."

You can't tell me this isn't a win for the people. They will watch what happens to this bill very closely.

Meanwhile, in jolly old England:
Snooper's charter has practically zero chance of becoming law, say senior MPs

The chances of Theresa May reintroducing her "snooper's charter" communications data bill are practically zero in the wake of the Guardian's disclosures on the scale of internet surveillance, leading Tory and Labour civil liberties campaigners have said.

That's two major pieces of repressive legislation that have been frozen or stopped because of Snowden.

Hope all of that assists you in fleshing out the conspiracy that's so obviously afoot (not).

Think of it this way....many a pacifist will kill in self defense. He was defending the Constitution not the Government.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by tracehd1

 

Wow.... You need to grow up a little bit.

OFFTOPIC

Back in the 80's I use to wear panties and then I " Changed my mind " and started free-styling...

OFFTOPIC

Back in early 2000 I use to believe in my Government and then I " Changed my mind when G. Bush won.

Believed in something that has not nor will ever change

I also back in 01 believed that guys from a cave killed more then 3000 on american Soil, i the. " changed my mind "when I seen all the lies and buildings coming down within hours of being hit by an Aero-Plane.

And?

Things and facts came up that made it possible for me to grow and learn that sometimes...We are forced to change our minds when, again... Certain facts are brought to light and not opinions.

All that growing, and can't see government for what it has always been.

edit on 27-6-2013 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

OFF TOPIC



I love how you shout that when your cornerd



I think your just bitter as Snowdon had the guts to do something you dont hence why you are flooding ATS with anti snowdon posts

Originally posted by MsAphrodite
reply to post by Rocker2013

 

Did you see the hit piece on Glenn Greenwald too? It's so obvious what these fascists are doing, and it's sickening.

Glenn's response to the hit piece

It's not surprising. The attitude that the government has is that, if it titillates the public, they'll eat it hook, line and sinker. They are definitely going through Greenwald's life with a fine tooth comb and, considering what he states is being dragged up, it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of his article. But if you can't fight the message, attack the messenger and smearing the "other guy" is a pretty typical political move. The funny thing about smear campaigns, at least with elections, is that, statistically speaking, the effects of the smear campaign are usually felt the most by the one doing the smearing as it makes them look uncouth. Honestly, how dumb do they think people are?

reply to post by Archie


reply to post by ipsedixit


Why do people say "overthrow the government" rather than "reform the government"

Who is the government What is it supposed to accomplish

THE ADMINISTRATORS ARE THE PROBLEM! If IBM has problems its because the management really sucks at their job, or they might even be paid to destroy it covertly from another corporation.

Get rid of the management. That is the solution! Vote different people who want to properly reform the government. Possibly different parties. Chastise the media that covers up or spins something out of context.

We need to stop using wrong terminology because it cheapens the cause and gives people wrong ideas.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by 3n19m470

 

What do I mean?

The current government could have sent Snowden themselves the only thing I am saying is Snowden may not be what he seems.

Governments sacrifice all the kings men all the time they are notorious for that.

Wow this is the silliest thing I have read in a long time. If what you are saying is true then why would john kerry be demanding from russia and china that edward snowden be extradited back to the usa for espionage? Why would that happen?

Think man, think!!

The man worked for the usa government, not for the democrats and republicans. The democrats and republicans have proved themselves the enemy of america and are using the government to destroy america. The administrators are lousy. ED found out what nsa was up to, that is spying on americans(not on chineese or russians) and decided to go to hong kong to disclose these facts for a) to help americans see the truth b)to embarrass democrats/republicans.

Thats all! Nothing else! Stop daydreaming fantasies.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
The man worked for the usa government, not for the democrats and republicans. The democrats and republicans have proved themselves the enemy of america and are using the government to destroy america. The administrators are lousy. ED found out what nsa was up to, that is spying on americans(not chineese or russians) and decided to go to hong kong to disclose these facts for a) to help americans see the truth b)to embarrass democrats/republicans.

Not all of the politicians in Congress are enemies. www.guardian.co.uk...
Plus you also have the Pauls speaking up, too, along with several other senators that I forget the names of. The NSA falls under the structure of the Department of Defense and the relationship between the DoD (including various aspects of the DoD) and Congress has not always cozy.
Organizational Structure of the DoD

As a member of the Intelligence Community, it also falls under the ODNI. As Clapper has already lied on the subject of surveillance to Congress, that's definitely an indicator of "not cozy".

What's also interesting is that now Gen. Cartwright is subject to a leak investigation by the DoJ. He retired from the position of VC of the Joint Chief of Staffs in August of 2011 and presumably leaked the information about Stuxnet around the same time, considering the publication date of the NY Times article and book by Sanger. If taken into perspective (and if he was in fact the leak), then, to use the analogy of a tree...Snowden would be one of the tiny branches and Cartwright, if it was him that blew the whistle on Stuxnet, would have been part of the integral roots. That implies that there may be a systemic issue there that is driving the leaks.

reply to post by Riposte

You seem to think America can easily be changed by working within the system, voting in politicians and "changing" the laws. But that is simply not the case.

Sorry, I did not say it would be easy. Those are your words. When you bring up disparate ideas and link them to something unrelated you can get called on it. There is a term for this and its called "Correlation does not imply causation." Google it. It will help you understand logic and reasoning.

What you could argue is that, between Obama and Romney, whichever side won, the NSA spying would continue. No doubt Romney would have followed the same path as Obama is currently. But then you have to ask yourself, is there no difference between the two. I would argue, along with most of those that voted, that the two would be different in many ways. In the case of National Defense, in regards to the NSA requests, they would probably be the same. But, and here is a big BUT, you don't know what Obama is hearing. There are things the American people simply don't need to know when it comes to security. That's why we elect people, to deal with # above our pay grade.

Now, to your other point that the People cannot change the government. This is false. Our voting does in fact elect officials in all forms of Government. Local, State and Federal positions are voted on, your problem is that, your ideas don't hold enough water with the People. You have to convince the masses your ideas are right, you simply cannot do this with poor logic. If you go off on irrelevant tangents you simply turn off the populace.

I hope this clarifies my point adequately.

You can be an internet conspiracy ranter, that is your right. That doesn't mean you your points are valid, you could be a kook, a crackpot. All i have to go on is what you say. I agree that writing is a poor medium for getting a point across because there is no base line of reasoning between everyone. So you have to build a case with sound logic. Otherwise, your arguments are simply dismissed.

So connect your dots adequately, don't write for the illogical, it will not have the affect you hope to achieve.


V

Originally posted by WhiteAlice

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
The man worked for the usa government, not for the democrats and republicans. The democrats and republicans have proved themselves the enemy of america and are using the government to destroy america. The administrators are lousy. ED found out what nsa was up to, that is spying on americans(not chineese or russians) and decided to go to hong kong to disclose these facts for a) to help americans see the truth b)to embarrass democrats/republicans.

Not all of the politicians in Congress are enemies.

I bet the vast majority are. The campaign system creates enemies of the state. Someone pays you they expect service. What does the average citizen provide other than their ignorant vote based on a controlled media? Sure they provide their basic pay which is absolute peanuts compared to bribes they get.