Britain’s Watergate? : The “Military Coup” Plot to bring down the Government

So......the barstids been messing with the governments since forever...get rid of the intelligence services.....

reply to post by mirageman


This reminds me of the attempted coup by American captains of industry, including Prescott Bush, to overthrow FDR during The Depression. However, the general who was asked to lead it, General Shmedley Butler, was a an actual patriot and believed in the Constitution, so he told FDR about it (even though he didn't care for FDR). The perpetrators were never held to account because it would look too untoward, and because FDR then used the information as a form of blackmail so that he could coerce these businessmen into helping in the coming war effort as well as to keep them at bay with respect to his other economic policies. This is a VERY poorly documented part of American history.

reply to post by crazyewok

Actually if a Government acts in a Treasonous way it can be removed. Same with the Monarch.

Well both governments and monarchs have, and continue to, act treasonously in the transfer of sovereignty to a foreign power, the EU, but that I guess is a discussion for another time and place.

But handing the country over to the USSR would in my opinion be treasonous.

Of course it is, but if the electorate choose to elect a leftist leaning government then that is the will of the people.
Parliament is supposed to be representative of the people and takes precedence over the monarchy - a little matter of The English Civil War and the subsequent beheading of King Charles I settled this matter.

TPTB have no legal or moral right to interfere in the governance of this country nor have they the right to use this nations security services and armed services to enforce their will in direct opposition to Parliament.

If Wilson, or any other politician, was / is a KGB spy then they should be arrested, charged and prosecuted in accordance with our law and due electoral procedure followed - there is no reason or excuse for executing a 'military coup', procedures are already in place.

Does not matter what the public wants in that regard as it would have been harmful in the long term.
[

Of course it matters what the public want.
And who says it would have been 'harmful in the long term'?

You seem to have more faith and belief in the monarchy and the ruling 'elites' than you do the people of this country.

Normaly no the military, police and secrurity service should not interfere and let the public make it own mistakes.

Normally?
How about 'at all times'.

But when those mistake involve extremes like full on Communism, Fascism,
Religious extemism or deep rooted corruption then yes I think the goverment should be forceible remove and new election with freesh canidates be done.

And who determines exactly what constitutes a mistake or 'extremism'?
The monarchy?
The security services?
The Armed Forces?
The Oxbridge / Old Etonian old schoolboy network?

I prefer to put my faith in the British people rather than any of the above.

And I think it's worth noting the incestuous relationship between all of the above, their vested interests in maintaining the status quo that they exploit to the full and also that far more KGB spies and threats to UK sovereignty have come from these backgrounds / networks etc than anywhere else.

some times the public can be stupid and reasonble limits should be placed or you could end up with a another NAZI Germany or Stalinist Russia on your hands.

Reasonable limits are already in place if due legal, electoral and parliamentary procedures are followed.

The security services play a valuable role in ensuring our continued safety and security - but it should not entail under-mining electoral and parliamentary process.
I have a huge amount of regard and respect for our Armed Services - but they are not the tools of some ruling 'elite' to be used to suppress the will of the people or to enable the installation of a puppet government.

reply to post by mirageman

Although I was aware of a fair bit of what you presented, I have learnt a lot of new stuff from that era when I was growing up. Going to do a bit more research into this now!

What an excellent post. Well written, presented and researched, It is so refreshing and rare to see posts like this lately. This is what I originally came to ATS for!
Well done! Much deserved S&F! (Wish I Could give you more)
Thank You.

Originally posted by Freeborn
If a government had gone 'full on red' as a result of the electorate's wishes then no-one should have the right to replace that governement other than the electorate themselve's.

But you're making this assessment on the principle that we have a democratic process. As we are seeing now, and as it was back then, we cannot possibly have a true democratic nation when there is an unelected group of individuals in a position of total control over government.

The security services were just as corrupt and self-serving back then as they are now. We're probably in a worse position now because of the ease with which information can be gathered by these all-powerful agencies, and because of their bloated and unrestrained reach.

How can we possibly have faith in any supposedly democratic electoral system when a group of spies wields absolute power over every member of government?

To the OP, thank you for a remarkable thread, the story is supporting what I feel we are experiencing now. I have increasingly believed that we have had a coup, or at least there has been one in the USA. We are no longer in control of our governments, instead we are given the impression of a democratic government, but one that is controlled by a cabal of military, intelligence and commercial interests.

If all of this was possible back then, just imagine what's going on behind the curtain right now.

Awesome post OP

Dr Peter Beter touched upon the British conspiracy in the 70's

Wow, I'd never heard of this, so thank you OP for bringing it to my attention, S+F

King

reply to post by mirageman


Mirageman , thank you very much for your fantastic, brilliantly executed post. That was superbly informative, well researched, cited, and a thorougly good read.

While the comments of crazyewok might lead one to believe that jingoism and the status quo are well supported in the main, Freeborns take on this situation has more root in the law, and indeed in the democratic ideals that the majority of people in this country had, back when the majority had ideals of any kind at all.

The real issues here are that at one point, a cabal of individuals with power and money, decided that they did not agree with the direction that the PEOPLE were taking the nation in, and decided to wrest power from thier hands, despite all the laws and history which had to be passed, and past, in order to see the people gain a measure of control lover thier lives, thier destiny and thier nation.

The very planning of such a coup is a treason, because it flies in the face of the will of the people, and since the fall of Charles the first, that will has been supposed to be paramount, transcending the will of the monarch, or any un-elected official in the land. That description includes Lord Louis Mountbatten, whomever was running the intelligence services at the time, as well as virtually all the protagonists in the sordid tale, aside from those being targeted.

Lets boil this down shall we? This was an example of some over entitled, clueless old farts, daring to question the authority of the majority, and go against the voting public. This was not righteous indignation, but willful disregard of the needs and wishes of the people, an egomaniacal take over plot, designed to install what amounts to a dictatorship in a nation which desired freedom, and whose people had already payed a great price to gain it in decades past.

Now, I wasnt around during this almighty balls up, but if I had of been, my veiw on it would be the same as it is today, with matters which pertain to the same area of political thought, and action:

No matter wether your politics are right or left, blue or red, democracy trumps your opinion, and its operation is not subject to debate. It will be as the people say it shall be, or there will be blood, thunder, death , mayhem, and there shall be nothing worth the having at the end.

Originally posted by TrueBrit


No matter wether your politics are right or left, blue or red, democracy trumps your opinion, and its operation is not subject to debate. It will be as the people say it shall be, or there will be blood, thunder, death , mayhem, and there shall be nothing worth the having at the end.

Even if the Public opinion was to hand the country over to the USSR? If they had we would have been dragged down with them when the fell not to mention the human rights abuses it would have entailed.

Was it right to let the German public choose Hitler? Was it right to let the Russian public continue to support Stalin? If the German or Russian Millitary have decided no we would not have had world war 2 and some of the worst atrocitys in History.


Freedom to choose is good. Unless emotions get the better of the public and they try and drag the country into extremes be it fasicm, full on communism or some other evil direction.



Now I dont think Mountbatten and those who made up what was hopefully going to be a transitional goverment while new candiates were formed and new electrion taken place were much better than the sad lot we have now. But if push came to shove its far better than if the Goverment had gone full communist and handed the Country over to the warsaw pact.

Luckly the Goverment didnt go full Commie and the army didnt have to come in. The fact they didnt showed that it was a heavly descions and something that really was a last resort.



Now suprisingly Im a socailist at heart but even I would not have wanted full blown commuinism in the UK just because people at the time were being lead by emotion and desperation.


Think of it this way. What if 10 years for now the BNP get into power and start going full Hitler on us? Should the army and security foces remove them? Or should they just let it all happen as we picked them?

At the end of the day it a extremy difficult decision one that should not be taken lightly. And im glad things did not get to a point were it did happen.


And as to the argument or legality or illegality of overthrowing a goverment.
Sometimes the Right thing is not always the Legal thing. Nor is the right thing now always the popular thing.
And its bloody difficult to determine!

reply to post by Rocker2013

But you're making this assessment on the principle that we have a democratic process.

I'm making this assessment on due legal procedure.

I'm not dismissing the possibility that the facts as so eloquently related by the OP did happen, in fact I firmly believe they did - I am merely pointing out that any attempt to use the security services and armed forces to oust an elected government and install a puppet regime in it's place is illegal in the eyes of current UK Law.

My opinions on the current 'democratic' process and politicians etc are irrelevant - at present the system is the one used to 'democratically' elect the representative body that is parliament..

There is no-one more loathing of our self-serving, career politicians, their continual dismissal and contemptuous disregard that they have for the people they are supposed to represent and the incestuous relationship between them, senior civil servants, the judiciary, secret services, armed forces, MSM, police, bankers, industrialists etc than I.
As a proponent of Direct Democracy I firmly believe that the party political system has outlived it's usefullness and urgent and radical reform of our electoral and parliamentary procedures are required.

But that is irrelevant as far as this thread goes.
We can debate the merits and validity of the current electoral and parliamentary procedures, we can discuss alternative methods of government and their relative pro's and con's and we can talk about who really holds the power and influence - but none of that will change the fact that we have an electoral system that allegedly delivers a democratically elected government that is representative of the electorate's wishes.

The elected government is THE senior authority in the country and any attempt to undermine or remove that government outside of the current electoral and parliamentary procedures are illegal.
The only 'body' that has the legal and moral authority to remove a government are parliament in it's role as the electorate's representative body and the electorate itself.

As for your other points; I agree with the vast majority of them.

And I have no doubt whatsoever that it's entirely feasible that elements within the security services / armed forces etc could or would actually carry out some sort of coup d'etat in the future if a party was ever elected that seriously threatened the current self-perpetuating system that the 'unholy alliance' that really control's this country do everything to maintain and upkeep.

We are no longer in control of our governments, instead we are given the impression of a democratic government, but one that is controlled by a cabal of military, intelligence and commercial interests.

I couldn't have put it better, apart from one little thing;
No longer?
Personally I don't believe we ever have been and what gains that were made in the aftermath of both World Wars have been gradually eroded by succesive governments and to such an extent that we now have a government that is openly intent on taking us back to something like a Victorian like society.

If all of this was possible back then, just imagine what's going on behind the curtain right now.

Indeed.

Originally posted by crazyewok
]
Even if the Public opinion was to hand the country over to the USSR? If they had we would have been dragged down with them when the fell not to mention the human rights abuses it would have entailed.

First of all, there was never any real threat of that happening, so the point is moot. But if it was the will of the people, enough to get it voted through, then yes! What right have you to say otherwise?

Was it right to let the German public choose Hitler? Was it right to let the Russian public continue to support Stalin? If the German or Russian Millitary have decided no we would not have had world war 2 and some of the worst atrocitys in History.

It was right to let them choose thier leadership, but it would have been wrong to allow the Nazis to attack and take over Europe unchecked, and it would have been wrong not to prevent them installing a xenophobic dictatorship across the entire planet, which was the logical conclusion of thier strategy at the time. A people being free to decide what happens within thier own nation is one thing, but that cuts both ways. With that right to decide, comes (cliche maybe, but it is true) a responsibility to suffer the consequences of that choice. They allowed thier government to annexe a major portion of the planet, and got butchered for it, and rightly so.

Freedom to choose is good. Unless emotions get the better of the public and they try and drag the country into extremes be it fasicm, full on communism or some other evil direction.

There are ways that communism could work, provided there were no people with more power than anyone else. Its only human foolishness and greed that allows the entire idea to crumble. A fascism however is never limited to its own borders, promotes violence, and cannot be installed without the abuses of human rights that have been seen before in such political climates. Communism does not strictly require gulags, totalitarianism or indeed any other negative. That is, however, how it always turns out, usually because people allow it to happen, rather than taking power for the majority and forcing those who desire power over thier fellow man out of the way.

Now I dont think Mountbatten and those who made up what was hopefully going to be a transitional goverment while new candiates were formed and new electrion taken place were much better than the sad lot we have now. But if push came to shove its far better than if the Goverment had gone full communist and handed the Country over to the warsaw pact.

For clarification, I would not want that to have happened either. However, there was never any real danger of that in any case. Also, there is no such political status as "full communist". There is communist, and other statuses which are not communist. Also, your new candidates would have been selected by an organisation who were usurping the rule of the people, by the people, which still leaves any resultant government in a God awful state of illegitimacy, and would lead to further civil unrest by its very existence.

Luckly the Goverment didnt go full Commie and the army didnt have to come in. The fact they didnt showed that it was a heavly descions and something that really was a last resort.

If the government had gone commie, the army would have had no bloody place to comment, as covered before.

Now suprisingly Im a socailist at heart but even I would not have wanted full blown commuinism in the UK just because people at the time were being lead by emotion and desperation.


Think of it this way. What if 10 years for now the BNP get into power and start going full Hitler on us? Should the army and security foces remove them? Or should they just let it all happen as we picked them?

If the BNP gain power, then this will not be Great Britain any more, and the correct response will be to either leave, or join a CITIZENS revolt against the rot, not a military one, and not an intelligence community effort, but a purely citizen effort against Nazism.

At the end of the day it a extremy difficult decision one that should not be taken lightly. And im glad things did not get to a point were it did happen.

edit on 27-6-2013 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)

I am also glad that the military did not make the foolish error of attempting to force a set of political circumstances on the people, because that would have lead to thier getting gutted in the streets by raving mobs, far larger than their ammunition capacity would allow for.

Nothing piddles on the parade of the free, like uniforms attempting to lay down the law.

Ladies and gentlemen, please be upstanding for the British Establishment.

Its still there, it always has been and it probably always will be.

Most recent examples would be the London riots. They stopped when the Establishment had enough.

Great op you have done very well doing your research. What I find odd is that the royal families name is Mountbatten and how did they manage to get a relative into power which almost caused a coup is astounding. I mean the royals needed someone they could trust and what better way then having a bloodline in the pack.

reply to post by TrueBrit


Think we will have to agree to disagree.

I just think that 50% of the public in any country are idoits and though I dont think there vote should be taken away we need to accept that sometimes the only thing they are really good for voteing for is who wins X-Factor or Big brother. Therefore some checks and balances need to be put in place so that in hard times these idoits while led by emotion dont lead the rest of us to do something stupid.


To me Britain has always been about moderation. That been our countrys strenghs throughout its history. Extremism be it far right or far left has no place here.

reply to post by crazyewok


I agree with you lol I mean why would anyone vote for Jedward is beyond me

reply to post by crazyewok


And I would agree with you. However, that is not a choice which either of us have the moral or legal authority to make. Democracy means nothing , absolutely nothing, unless the will of the people dictates the fate of the nation as a whole. The big financial problems our nation faces today, and the political response to it, which has been to close ranks against the public will, and crush the people with cut after cut, is evidence that the moment any individual begins to take it upon themselves to decide something on behalf of the common good, that runs counter to public will, there will be problems.

Now, today, we stare down the barrel of a future which contains the effect of successive governments ignoring the will of the people, rather than bowing to it and doing thier damned jobs, as servants of the people, which it is thier place and duty to do. We have never, in this country, suffered an abundance of loyal politicians, prepared to do as they are bid by the majority on every subject, and things will not improve for the majority until we DO have a representative government, who would rather cut thier own throats than make lives difficult for pensioners, who would rather loose a limb than destabilise people on benifits (the vast majority of whom are not cheating the DWP). And yet, that is the precise opposite of the current political spectrum.

Surely you can see that there are similar issues affecting both of these scenarios? The people being removed from having access to power on thier own behalf, is never going to be acceptable, no matter how potentially terrifying the results of thier whims.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
reply to post by crazyewok

 

And I would agree with you. However, that is not a choice which either of us have the moral or legal authority to make. Democracy means nothing , absolutely nothing, unless the will of the people dictates the fate of the nation as a whole. The big financial problems our nation faces today, and the political response to it, which has been to close ranks against the public will, and crush the people with cut after cut, is evidence that the moment any individual begins to take it upon themselves to decide something on behalf of the common good, that runs counter to public will, there will be problems.

Now, today, we stare down the barrel of a future which contains the effect of successive governments ignoring the will of the people, rather than bowing to it and doing thier damned jobs, as servants of the people, which it is thier place and duty to do. We have never, in this country, suffered an abundance of loyal politicians, prepared to do as they are bid by the majority on every subject, and things will not improve for the majority until we DO have a representative government, who would rather cut thier own throats than make lives difficult for pensioners, who would rather loose a limb than destabilise people on benifits (the vast majority of whom are not cheating the DWP). And yet, that is the precise opposite of the current political spectrum.

Surely you can see that there are similar issues affecting both of these scenarios? The people being removed from having access to power on thier own behalf, is never going to be acceptable, no matter how potentially terrifying the results of thier whims.

No I agree the current lot we have now are a bad lot and need removeing. But again the only reason they are in power is because idoits keep voteing for them, ether because daddy and grandady always did or because some celebrity told them too

The smart one like us are left out of the loop and cant change anything because the stupid and lazy ones dont get off there arses.



This is why I believe any goverment needs checks and balances. If it goes too extrem or too corrupt we have a clean out. And I think that should be put into law. We need some constitution that outlines specific rules our goverment needs to follow and our army and security services sworn in to protect that constitution not the goverment or Monarch.

I do not want to be dragged into a extremist country be it Fascist or Communist that resemble NAZI or soviet styles of goverment because No GCSE lazy racist ignorant bob down the road was told too by Jedward on the TV.

I have constantly preached civil liberties on ATS, and for a good reason. This type of behavior is not something that any western country is immune to. This is why it is imperative that the citizenry be armed. Too many people, especially in the US it seems, wish to simply place their fate in the hands of those in power. Or those who would take power away from the current government. Just because the government works smoothly sometimes does not mean that it will always be this way. There was a coup plot in the US, and it would have succeeded rather easily, in the early 20th century.

As it stands now, the military could EASILY overthrow the US government, with no problems at all. IF there is someone who is in a high enough position within the military, there is a chance of success. There are other factors of course, including gathering a following within the ranks of the military, but honestly all it could take is the participation of a portion of the high command and lower command structures, and many soldiers will follow orders. And there are ALWAYS those within the ranks who could do this, IF they KNEW it would succeed. It has not been done as of yet simply because those who would be willing to do it have not known whether they would have enough support to accomplish their goal. Failure would not be an option in such an endeavor.

All I am saying is that this does not surprise me, and that such potential behavior can never be eliminated. Even in regimes where such an act would seem unthinkable, such as during the Nazi regime, there are those who are thinking about such actions, and they might just carry them out. There are always going to be more officers who would support a coup than would initiate one. So if there is someone with the guts to do it, there are going to be many more people that will follow that person.

reply to post by mirageman


Great thread op, I had no idea about any of this before. I've heard rumours of Mountbattens shady history but nothing of this nature before.
S and F for a quality thread.