Judaism, Still Waiting For A Messiah ?

reply to post by SimonPeter

We are about to see some prophecy come true that has been prophesied in the bible and it will be devastating to this world

You may be worshipping the dragon, who is the god of chaos, rather than the one who "made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water".

reply to post by jmdewey60

A lot more normal than dispensationalism which is antichristian, making Christianity the red-headed stepbrother to the Jews, creating what is, as far as I am concerned, outright idolatry.

You know what's anti-christian, Dewey, it's following Ellen G. White's visions instead of God's Word.

reply to post by Deetermined

You know what's anti-christian, Dewey, it's following Ellen G. White's visions instead of God's Word.

Do you mean things like trusting in God, following Jesus, and not smoking and drinking alcohol?
Or did you have something else in mind?

reply to post by jmdewey60


The only thing I don't understand is why you claim all of the prophecies have been fulfilled, but Ellen G. White made several predictions and set dates for Christ's second coming that never happened.

Have the Seventh Day Adventists dropped Ellen G. White now?

Is this why you don't believe in a second coming?

reply to post by Deetermined

Have the Seventh Day Adventists dropped Ellen G. White now?

It never was a rule that you had to accept everything E G White ever said, or really, any of it. I think it is requested of membership candidates that they believe that God does still act in the world through prophecy.
What caused me to drop support of any end time prophecy fulfilment scheme is (in light of the hoopla over 2012 doom predictions), taking a closer look at the scriptures used to support it. One thing that I discovered right away is that if you eliminate 2 Thessalonians, the entire thing falls apart.

reply to post by jmdewey60

One thing that I discovered right away is that if you eliminate 2 Thessalonians, the entire thing falls apart.

Can you explain your thoughts behind that because we still have Revelation?

What prophecies do you feel are still left to play out?

reply to post by Deetermined

Can you explain your thoughts behind that because we still have Revelation?

Revelation starts out saying that these things are soon to take place.
It compresses history to make the fulfillment in the present.

What prophecies do you feel are still left to play out?

None, since it was written before the great tribulation.
The cults get around that by artificially setting the date of its writing to later than the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD by the Romans.
Adventist eschatology recognizes that the prophecies were already fulfilled, but that they would have a secondary fulfilment in relation to a final judgment. What I have done is to retain the first part, and then to drop the second, based on there not being sufficient evidence to support it.

reply to post by Deetermined

Sorry, but Seventh Day Adventists aren't considered the norm as it relates to Christianity.

And yet, the new Dispensationalists got their idea of using the Apotelesmatic principle to recycle fulfilled prophecy from a Seventh-day Adventist's Doctoral Thesis presented in 1972. You referred to that in the post to me when you wrote:

That's because there is a true argument for both sides.

However, you have to compare Daniel to Revelation to realize that it's all going to play itself out again, only this time someone will stand in the temple and declare themselves God right here on earth and force people to worship him or risk being killed.

It's no different than Jesus giving a twofold message in Matthew 24 with Jesus warning of events about to happen (the fall of the second temple) compared to events that will play out again in the future, only with a different and permanent ending when Jesus mentions the heavens and the earth passing away.

History repeats itself.

Ford, uses this hermeneutical principle to accept various reinterpretations and applications of descriptions and of prophetic symbols. As the modus operandi of his principle, Ford states the following axiom:

"Once the principle is grasped we will readly understand why many
excellent scholars can be listed under each separate school of
interpreters: preterism, historicism, futurism, idealism. All are
right in what they affirm and wrong in what they deny.3"

Ford stated this axiom for the first time in his thesis submitted to
Manchester University, England, in 1972. It is stated as follows: “Here again, as
is so often the case, the heresies prove ‘true in what they affirm, but false in
what they deny’”.4
The same thought recurs in his commentary on Daniel
published in 1978. There it occurs in a discussion of the different schools of
prophetic interpretation:
The Apotelesmatic Principle: Origin and Application

I looked up the word and found that it already existed as a principle in Astrology, due to the nature of repeating star patterns. So what it amounts to in Bible interpretation would be to take oracular statements and look at them as an Astrologer would. That's right up there with Kabbalistic use of numerology and such to "decode" the Bible.

Weird huh!

reply to post by pthena


Why don't you and Dewey both tell me when these things happened?

Matthew 24:27-33

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


Zechariah 14:6-9 and 12-16

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

reply to post by Deetermined

You shouldn't lump us together. jmdewey is a Christian and I am a heathen. Our answers won't be the same.

My answer is that Zechariah is rubbish, and the author of Matthew was heavily reliant upon Zechariah and Psalms of Solomon imagery and literary constructs.

Jerusalem was quite literally destroyed. All those prophecies about it not being destroyed are exposed as being pure rubbish. If you think that history must continually repeat itself until every single word of every single false prophet comes true then maybe you should change your thinking.

And no, I'm not calling Jesus a false prophet. Jerusalem was destroyed, and Jesus said it would be in spite of what Zechariah wrote and what was written in Psalms of Solomon.

reply to post by pthena

My answer is that Zechariah is rubbish, and the author of Matthew was heavily reliant upon Zechariah and Psalms of Solomon imagery and literary constructs.

If that's the case, you might as well throw out the whole Bible.

OLD TESTAMENT VERSES FOUND in the NEW TESTAMENT

www.ccel.org...

reply to post by Deetermined

If that's the case, you might as well throw out the whole Bible.

I'm seriously considering not discussing the Bible any more. Still in the discussion phase within my secret cult. Perhaps a moratorium is in order, until we sort out our plans and goals.

Moratorium: starting ..... wait for it........... wait for it...........Now.

reply to post by jmdewey60


For someone who will not confess Jesus as your savior how can you make that remark ? You know I follow Jesus Christ and he does not follow satan . .

reply to post by pthena


If you actually studied the prophecy you would never make that statement . There is nothing recycled about a One World Government headed by the False prophet or the Mark of the Beast System . Nor is their the great earthquakes that will level mountains or the Sun and Moon being darkened .Nor has their been the Gog and Magog war as described by Ezekiel 38 especially followed by the next chapter describing the Lord coming back to save Israel from being totally wiped out .
Then there is 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 that says the Son of Perdition will sit in the Temple seat of God as if to say he is God . The Son of Perdition or False Prophet /AC has not come yet .
The only thing that has been recycled is Preterits rhetoric .

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

What I cannot understand is how the Jews cannot recognize in the cross of Jesus, the Tree of Life and the twin pillars of a severe Justice and a tender Mercy.

P.S. I believe our commission from Jesus is to what might be called a participatory eschatology, unto some sort of critical mass, not as a phenomenon one can point to, and say look - there he is or here he comes.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I have never heard a Christian call the cross that before. I know in Judaism that there are different forms of atonement that is very different from Christianity. There is sacrificing certain animals to God, charity, and prayer. In Christianity there is the original sin that Christians believe only Jesus death on the cross can clean. Compared to Judaism that doesn't believe in human sacrifice and see Jesus death as an invalid form of atonement.

reply to post by Deetermined


Matthew 24:27-33 is still ahead of us.

As for the the second coming, this is another topic altogether, and understanding that properly actually involves understanding a few Greek words correctly. I have posted this information on ATS before, I need to go digging for it.
Suffice to say we won't be seeing Jesus directly, but we will see events that prove he is back and using his powers, throughout the earth, and not just in the geographic area of Israel.

I think this would make a good topic to discuss in the future, but this isn't the thread to do it in, because this one is on the Messiah that comes to give up his life for humanity in the first century in Isreal. Not Jesus taking action on worldwide scale to fix the whole planets problems.