Judaism, Still Waiting For A Messiah ?

reply to post by JiggyPotamus


Yes you nailed it

What Are The Odds

Those are the odds with just eight variables, add these and you see the picture. And there are even more, but these are the more popular ones.

Chart Of Prophecy

reply to post by JiggyPotamus

Jesus fulfilled every single requirement of the Messiah that was laid out in the Old Testament, and if one understands what was prophesied in these documents, it is clear that there is absolutely no one else who could have potentially been the Messiah. And it is too late for a Messiah, as you mention. Therefore Christianity is right, and Judaism is now wrong.

We should remember that in the 1st Century there was not yet a Canon of Scripture, neither Jewish nor Christian.

It's quite possible that many of the writings that people appealed to as scripture have been lost to us today. Even the Psalms of Solomon were lost until rediscovered in the 1600s. I would theorize that many people within 1st century Jewish belief held them to be true prophecy. Therefore it wasn't until after Jerusalem was destroyed that they disappeared as an embarrassment.

To continue on in Psalm of Solomon chapter 17:

23 (21) Behold, O Lord, and raise up unto them their king, the son of David,

At the time in the which Thou seest, O God, that he may reign over Israel Thy servant

24 (22) And gird him with strength, that he may shatter unrighteous rulers,

25 And that he may purge Jerusalem from nations that trample (her) down to destruction.

(23) Wisely, righteously 26 he shall thrust out sinners from (the) inheritance,

He shall destroy the pride of the sinner as a potter's vessel.

(24) With a rod of iron he shall break in pieces all their substance,

21 He shall destroy the godless nations with the word of his mouth;

(25) At his rebuke nations shall flee before him,

And he shall reprove sinners for the thoughts of their heart.

28 (26) And he shall gather together a holy people, whom he shall lead in righteousness,

And he shall judge the tribes of the people that has been sanctified by the Lord his God.

29 (21) And he shall not suffer unrighteousness to lodge any more in their midst,

Nor shall there dwell with them any man that knoweth wickedness,

30 For he shall know them, that they are all sons of their God.

(28) And he shaIl divide them according to their tribes upon the land,

31 And neither sojourner nor alien shall sojourn with them any more.

(29) He shall judge peoples and nations in the wisdom of his righteousness. Selah.

32 (30) And he shall have the heathen nations to serve him under his yoke;

And he shall glorify the Lord in a place to be seen of () all the earth;

33 And he shall purge Jerusalem, making it holy as of old:

34 (31) So that nations shall come from the ends of the earth to see his glory,

Bringing as gifts her sons who had fainted,

35 And to see the glory of the Lord, wherewith God hath glorified her.

(32) And he (shall be) a righteous king, taught of God, over them,

36 And there shall be no unrighteousness in his days in their midst,

For all shall be holy and their king the anointed of the Lord.

wesley.nnu.edu...

This is all a pretty concise summary of 1st Century Messianic Zionism. It all pretty much can be found within the canonical Psalms and Prophets. Nothing really new here, except for the timeframe built into the first part of the chapter, tying it in with the elimination of the Hasmoneans.

Also, many of the references in the part I quoted are also reflected in the early teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Gospel accounts. Recall his insistence upon "this generation" and "seeking out the lost sheep of Israel" etc.

Many times I have entertained the theory that Jesus was actually trying to be this Messiah, and that only in the last few days of his life did he realize the utter futility of the project. Then he turned away from his mission and pronounced doom upon Jerusalem. For that he was killed. And by his death the whole notion of Messiah went to the grave (or should have rather).

That paragraph above is my working hypothesis until I find some other theory that makes more sense to me.

reply to post by Phoenix267

Today in Judaism the concept of God is very strict and what I mean is: God is consider one being who cannot be divided; has no image like human or animal characteristics; God does not have gender either. I was surprised how strict the concept of God in Judaism was very different than Christianity and similar to Islam.

That's the public face of Judaism. The reality that the Kabbalah introduces all manner of divisions and gender is not made public.

In times past, only the Ultra Orthodox read the Kabbalah. Now due to growing popularity of Chabad movement, even Reformed Judaism is encouraged to study Kabbalah.

reply to post by pthena

Many times I have entertained the theory that Jesus was actually trying to be this Messiah, and that only in the last few days of his life did he realize the utter futility of the project. Then he turned away from his mission and pronounce doom upon Jerusalem. For that he was killed. And by his death the whole notion of Messiah went to the grave.

Let's go back to what we were discussing yesterday when Jesus had the talk with the Samaritan woman. Was that a few days before his death? He already told her that a time would come when he was not there and everyone would be worshiping God through his Spirit. You don't think he knew from the time he got here what the entire plan was? He told his disciples that he was going to be rejected and that the world would hate him. He always knew. He said he came to die for his sheep.

reply to post by Deetermined

Let's go back to what we were discussing yesterday when Jesus had the talk with the Samaritan woman. Was that a few days before his death?

That seems like a good idea to me. Long threads are burdensome to get through and this thread is shorter. I prefer short threads.

However, I don't hold out much hope that we will come to any consensus, due to the fact that you have a fundamentalist attitude toward the writings whereas I have no such attitude. I distinguish between author and author, and I distinguish between when things were written and what things the writings were written to refute or argue against.

The Gospel of John was most likely written some time after the destruction of Jerusalem. Therefore the author presented the teachings of Jesus in such a way as to argue against the teachings of the post destruction Rabbis who were working toward presenting a new Messiah (see Bar Kochba, and his success in holding Jerusalem for three years against the Romans and re instituting sacrifices ).

reply to post by pthena

The Gospel of John was most likely written some time after the destruction of Jerusalem. Therefore the author presented the teachings of Jesus in such a way as to argue against the teachings of the post destruction Rabbis who were working toward presenting a new Messiah (see Bar Kochba, and his success in holding Jerusalem for three years against the Romans and re instituting sacrifices ).

Can you elaborate in more detail and what question you have about it?

reply to post by Deetermined

Can you elaborate in more detail and what question you have about it?

One book that I know about that gets into that is,
The Fourth Gospel and the Jews: A Study in R. Akiba, Esther, and the Gospel of John, by John Bowman.
You can find a used copy on Amazon right now for $15.
www.amazon.com...=cm_cr_mts_prod_img
It documents what the vocabulary was during the time that Jesus was alive, and how it changed later on and that changed version is what shows up in the Gospel of John, also the issues related to the introduction of the Book of Esther into the canon and how John uses themes from that book in scenes like the miracle of turning water into wine, and the woman caught in adultery. It also gets into the events surrounding the Jewish rebels after the destruction of the temple by the Romans.

reply to post by pthena

That's the public face of Judaism. The reality that the Kabbalah introduces all manner of divisions and gender is not made public.

Can you share more information about this? I only know so much about Judaism and what they believe.

Great post. And all they had to do was sacrifice their own people for it to happen. The ends justify the means.

reply to post by Phoenix267

Can you share more information about this?

I haven't studied the Kabbalah myself, but I have read portions of it enough to realize that it isn't monotheistic. Here's an excerpt from a Reform Judaism website:

Kabbalah
Definition:
A particular branch of Jewish mysticism that emerged after the 12th century.
...
Certainly, the primary text of Kabbalah - the Zohar – was most likely compiled by Rabbi Moshe de Leon (13th century) who stated it came from Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai (2nd century). Despite these claims, most scholars recognise a development of Jewish mysticism from the early merkava mysticism (based on the account of Ezekiel’s chariot) and mysticism based around the Genesis account towards a more developed system of esoteric doctrine in the Middle Ages.
. . .
. . .at the end of the Middle Ages, Kabbalah was prohibited to anyone under the age of 40 because of the complexity of the allegories and the risk of misinterpretation (as well as the need for a firm grounding in primary Jewish texts such as the Bible first).

The symbols which are perhaps central to most Kabbalist schools are the Tree of Life and the sefirot. The Tree of Life contains ten sefirot, which can perhaps be understood as manifestations of God, who is often described as the ein sof (“Without Limit” or “Limitless One”). Some hold that the ein sof is revealed to the universe through the sefirot, which in some sense act as intermediate states between the limitless Creator and the limited Earth.
Reformjudaism-Kabbalah

Just from this excerpt here, you can see the hypocrisy involved when Jews laugh at Christians for having a Trinity, while they have a 10-in-1 g.d

a lot is often lost in translation, especially with a language as deep as hebrew.. examples like the mistranslation of "almah" make significant changes..

reply to post by Deetermined

Can you elaborate in more detail and what question you have about it?

I think that I will refer you back to my thread "What Jerusalem?" and ask you if you think that any one successfully refuted my thesis that "there was no legitimate authority whereby the city of Jerusalem was rebuilt in violation of the Law of Moses".

If you had ever met or known in any way the actual ancient clan god of Israel, you would know that there is no place for him in this World, especially among the people who claim to worship him.

The World has gone on without him, especially those who claim to worship him. To them he would seem to be the most primitive sort of heathen deity.

reply to post by pthena


The only things is, you seem to forget the fact that Jesus said that his Father was the same God that Abraham followed. The Bible tells us that Jesus is going to fulfill the Old Testament God's promises. Why would Jesus fulfill the prophecies of an Old Testament God if he was an impostor? Why would Jesus quote him? Why would Jesus keep reprimanding them for not knowing what was written in the scriptures?

reply to post by Deetermined

Jesus said that his Father was the same God that Abraham followed.

Did Jesus say that, or do you read that into it?

By answering my question with this question, are you implying that Jesus was the authority who authorized the rebuilding of Jerusalem in violation of Moses?

Is it possible that Jesus did, in fact, meet the ancient clan deity, and then pronounced doom upon the city?

reply to post by pthena


John 8:56-58

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

reply to post by pthena


I think you're way hung up on the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

Does it matter whether or not it was authorized by anyone?

We know the history of the Jews is to make mistakes and repeat them over and over again, so what is your significance with this one?

ETA: We know that one of God's promises is that the Jews will never be destroyed as a people. Do you still have a problem with Jerusalem existing at all? Help me to understand where you're hung up with this.

reply to post by Deetermined

Your father Abraham

If I remember correctly, the conversation went on to where the Jews rejected the notion of having ever been slaves, thus rejecting the preamble of the Ten Words (aka 10 Commandments)

And thus and therefore Jesus said they were "of their father the devil".

reply to post by Deetermined

If you don't mind, I will rearrange your questions.

Do you still have a problem with Jerusalem existing at all? Help me to understand where you're hung up with this.

Yes, I have a problem with Jerusalem existing at all. Because it is a horrible trap, into hypocrisy, lying, murder, and any other terrible thing that is justified by religion.

My hang up is this: I have heard the taunts of the Jews and all their gloating over the demise of Christianity. No way in hell will I be satisfied with that outcome. Judaism must go down too. The only thing wrong with Christianity is that it keeps Judaic roots, which are corrupt to the core. That's my hangup.

Does it matter whether or not it was authorized by anyone?

Yes, it matters insofar as anyone thinks that there is anything special about that city other than that people happen to live there. Any other use is an abomination.

We know the history of the Jews is to make mistakes and repeat them over and over again, so what is your significance with this one?

And it's the fault of Christians to think there is anything special about Jews apart from being people among people.

ETA: We know that one of God's promises is that the Jews will never be destroyed as a people.

Some god or other. But what if it happens to be the god they have cut themselves off from?

reply to post by pthena


Is it not enough to think of Jerusalem as belonging to God/Jesus who will cut two thirds of it's people off and only save one third of them? That third will acknowledge and accept Jesus. He will allow that third to multiply and regenerate itself for 1,000 years, but that's it. Jesus will release Satan to test them for the last time and then it's judgement day for any who still want to deny the truth. They never owned that land. God always said that he owned it and that they would only inherit it after they accepted Jesus.

reply to post by pthena

Yes, it matters insofar as anyone thinks that there is anything special about that city other than that people happen to live there. Any other use is an abomination.

That's why after the 1,000 years are over and everyone is judged, a new heaven/earth will come down to replace it.