Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

reply to post by crazyewok


On this, I can see we'll have to agree to disagree. It's just a topic that doesn't have many places to go because we have polar opposite positions on things which cannot or will not change as I've seen it. Specifically, you see aspects of the Chinese and Russians as ever having the best interests of American citizens and average people in mind to seek help from. I don't and can't. Perhaps it's having seen The Tienanmen Square Massacre as a school child on TV to leave quite an impression. It's definitely got to do with the fact that however bad people think the Afghan Mujahadin in the 1980's were, what they were fighting was considerably worse.

That system and that world is what Putin was formed by and what his professional outlook is all rooted in. The people who cleared the square in China by killing everything in it are still represented by the unbroken power structure from then to now. These approaches to see either of those nations as better than ours are ill informed, in my opinion and probably where our opinions diverge too far. The US has fallen to match, but they've not improved in any meaningful ways to look to as help, IMO.

reply to post by cartenz

Deflection attempt and failure on your part.
America .. where secular rule of law makes none of that happen.
America ... where abortions are not forced like they are in China.
America ... where you don't go to jail for writing anti-Obama songs.

China ... where abortions are forced.
China .. which supports North Korea starving millions of humans to death.
China ... with slave labor for policial prisoners.
Russia .. where you get thrown in jail for writing anti-Putin songs.
Russia .. where you get thrown in jail with no charges and no trial for years.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by cartenz

 

It is helpful to see everyone get their true and deepest feelings out here so we all know where each other is coming from in the future.

Yeah I keep databases too

When/If Snowden's actions shift from a man looking to see critical change in America to a man looking to do harm to it for the sake of doing harm?

If that was a question then please rephrase it as a question.

Then there is no question...

You are right, it wasn't a question...

...lines or debate.

So we are not allowed to debate/discuss this, we have to accept the official line of "he's a traitor!"? that really defeats the porpose of any forum discussion does it not?

He has become a traitor and is awfully young for how many years he'll have left to hide or run.

He will out live the regime that hunts him IMHO

There is a world of difference between the two motivations, IMO.

Yes, the world we want and the world we live in. The only way to achieve the former is to destroy the latter.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Todzer
So do you think he should have kept his mouth shut then?

If he was a patriot .. he would have told the American people about NSA spying on them.
And then he would have stopped and not given up state secrets to China and Russia.

Proof for that ? What state secrets ? Everybody knows that US is spying and hacking on China and Reverse . But not everybody knows it before two weeks that thousands of people like Snowden can see and hear your bathroom, kitchen , your emails ......with secret court and secret warrant and even without a warant. You have an agenda here i can smell it ..too much posts on attacking Snowden , and not adreesing the message.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Maybe we will.

But look at it this way.

France never had the best intrests of the American people at heart. And its Absolute Monchary compared to Britain made the UK seem like angles. Look at some of the atrocitys France was known for (that lead to its revolution). Same as China and Russia now are prettly low on the human rights scale. Yet your forefathers still had to seek help from France to win even though it had no intrest in American wellfare and was pretty rotten and worse than what you were fighting in the first place.

Its not clear cut when a Freind becomes a enemy or a Enemy becomes a Freind or If a Enemy that becomes a freind is still a enemy

All that matters at the moment is Tyranny in the USA (and here in the UK) is stopped. And to stop it we may have to do some distastefull things with distastefull people just like in 1776.

Originally posted by xavi1000
You have an agenda here i can smell it ..too much posts on attacking Snowden , and not adreesing the message.

:shk: Just stop it ...

1 - I have stated that if Snowden had stopped at just telling the USA about NSA spying on it's citizens, then he'd be right up there with Nathan Hale and Paul Revere, as far as I'm concerned.

2 - I have stated that Snowden went too far when he ran to China and started giving up National Security Secrets. That is an activity that is WORTHY of attacking.

3 - Your 'agenda' statement ... straw man absurdum.

reply to post by cartenz

So we are not allowed to debate/discuss this, we have to accept the official line of "he's a traitor!"? that really defeats the porpose of any forum discussion does it not?
He has become a traitor and is awfully young for how many years he'll have left to hide or run.

He will out live the regime that hunts him IMHO
There is a world of difference between the two motivations, IMO.

Yes, the world we want and the world we live in. The only way to achieve the former is to destroy the latter.

I've met some people that speak like you do. Just a few. As much as they were allies of necessity at that moment, those who are dedicated to the total destruction of the system or my nation are my enemy. Absolutely no confusion ought to ever exist on that.

I see major major ways my nation and my Government needs reformed. I see serious ways other nations like Russia, needs reformed (The outright crusade against anything homosexual comes to mind as a starter). Their way is not and never will be our way ...anymore than our way turned out to be something they could work with after their spectacular crash in 1989/90.

Now it's our turn, apparently, for the math to catch up, as it did for them before, and our turn to crash. We don't need their help in causing it...let alone one of our own people helping to accelerate it. We certainly won't need their help afterward. Reform and Rebuilding. That is the only logical path.

Wholesale destruction is insane and criminally insane at that.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by cartenz

 

Deflection attempt and failure on your part.
America .. where secular rule of law makes none of that happen.
America ... where abortions are not forced like they are in China.
America ... where you don't go to jail for writing anti-Obama songs.

China ... where abortions are forced.
China .. which supports North Korea starving millions of humans to death.
China ... with slave labor for policial prisoners.
Russia .. where you get thrown in jail for writing anti-Putin songs.
Russia .. where you get thrown in jail with no charges and no trial for years.

American Govermnet: Were they invade other countrys on false reasons againt international law
American Govermnet: Who force there way into home without warrents (see Bosten)
American Govermnet: Who spy on you even though its inshrined in law not to.
American Govermnet: Who are rakeing up debt that will destroy your economy.
American Govermnet: Who kiddnap people and imprison them without trial in a toture camp in cuba.
American Govermnet: Who supply arms to syrian rebels who eat people hearts and kill civilians for fun.


Yeah China and Russia may be worse. But the USA are certainly no angels!

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by xavi1000
You have an agenda here i can smell it ..too much posts on attacking Snowden , and not adreesing the message.

:shk: Just stop it ...

1 - I have stated that if Snowden had stopped at just telling the USA about NSA spying on it's citizens, then he'd be right up there with Nathan Hale and Paul Revere, as far as I'm concerned.

2 - I have stated that Snowden went too far when he ran to China and started giving up National Security Secrets. That is an activity that is WORTHY of attacking.

3 - Your 'agenda' statement ... straw man absurdum.

You see , my signature is like people of you , you are worthy attacking for making these claims, Snowden is not a spy , if he was he will be now in Beijing or Moscow enjoying ,,,but he is now running and running.... Snowden sacrifice his life for people like you ordinary people who wants their privacy protected which is fundamental part of freedom if you understand what is that.

History is being made and unfolding as we speak ... those on the wrong side of it by obstructing and impeding the truth from emerging are noted and shall be remembered.

I'm getting this when I try to go to the link in the original post:

Service Unavailable - DNS failureThe server is temporarily unable to service your request. Please try again later.
Reference #11.8c220e6b.1372177043.dc4762d

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

As much as they were allies of necessity at that moment, those who are dedicated to the total destruction of the system or my nation are my enemy.

Now it's our turn, apparently, for the math to catch up, as it did for them before, and our turn to crash. We don't need their help in causing it...let alone one of our own people helping to accelerate it. We certainly won't need their help afterward. Reform and Rebuilding. That is the only logical path.

But if your Forefathers had that same attitude back in 1776 of refusing help from former enemys that had nothing in common with the ideas of American and just wanted to see British empire Burn then you would not have the USA, you would not have the star banner and you would not have the President or Congress.

You would have the Union Jack and stripes, you would be the United Kingdon of America (UKA has a ring to it ) you would have a prime minster not a president and a Parliment not a congress.

reply to post by crazyewok

Its not clear cut when a Freind becomes a enemy or a Enemy becomes a Freind or If a Enemy that becomes a freind is still a enemy

All that matters at the moment is Tyranny in the USA (and here in the UK) is stopped. And to stop it we may have to do some distastefull things with distastefull people just like in 1776.

I sure hope for the sake of modern generations, that inability to so clearly see an enemy for what it is, doesn't change. Tyranny in the US is important to slow down, then stop and then reverse. However, to do this at the expense of U.S. ability in the face of the world? That's not looking for reform, it's inviting attack and destruction. The other side isn't slowing their efforts or tyranny to be blunt about it. Not one bit.

I'd feel better, perhaps, if those running the nations involved here weren't born of the very thinking so many figure is a thing of the past. Obama never thought he'd see nations thumb their nose in his face either. Things are already going in directions I'm not sure people originally intended.

Kerry's 'tough talk' to Russia isn't helping either. Talk about precisely the WRONG approach for Moscow and I don't need to be some super-statesman to see it.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by cartenz

 

Deflection attempt and failure on your part.

Lol you.

America .. where secular rule of law makes none of that happen.

Because NO christan lobby groups influence American politics

America ... where abortions are not forced like they are in China.

Where abortion doctors are shot, and clinics blown up by fundamental Christian psychos

America ... where you don't go to jail for writing anti-Obama songs.

Where John Lennon's Imagine was pulled from playlists after 911, because it might pacify the nation

China ... where abortions are forced.

Hyperbole

China .. which supports North Korea starving millions of humans to death.

Like the USA which supported the Taliban till it decided they were the enemy, again with Iraq, and just about every other nation the US has put its greedy little mitts into

China ... with slave labor for policial prisoners.

Where the US minimum wage is slave labour!

Russia .. where you get thrown in jail for writing anti-Putin songs.

America, where you create a whole genre of music to keep dark skinned people on crack

Russia .. where you get thrown in jail with no charges and no trial for years.

PMSL, read your PATRIOT Act.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Tranny in the US is important to slow down, then stop and then reverse.

Yes like your forefathers.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
However, to do this at the expense of U.S. ability in the face of the world? That's not looking for reform, it's inviting attack and destruction

When the USA broke from the Tyranny of the UK it had toa accept a lesser role in the world and weakend state at least tempoarly. The USA when it broke away took the risk that France (France only resently had it eye on the British colonies 2 decades befoe) and Spain would role in after and impose a even worse regium than the British!

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
. The other side isn't slowing their efforts or tyranny to be blunt about it. Not one bit.

Nor were Spain and France slowing there tyranny down in 1776. Yet America still sought there help.

reply to post by xavi1000

You see , my signature is like people of you , you are worthy attacking for making these claims, Snowden is not a spy , if he was he will be now in Beijing or Moscow enjoying ,,,but he is now running and running.... Snowden sacrifice his life for people like you ordinary people who wants their privacy protected which is fundamental part of freedom if you understand what is that. History is being made and unfolding as we speak ... those on the wrong side of it by obstructing and impeding the truth from emerging are noted and shall be remembered.

I haven't seen FlyersFan calling Snowdon a spy.

He's not running, he's gone missing in Russia, who still to my knowledge say they don't know where he is.

History is being made as we speak, you're right. You are obstructing and impeding truth from emerging by denying others the right to speculate an opposing view to yours.

Originally posted by xavi1000
my signature is like people of you ,

obstructing and impeding the truth from emerging ... yeah right. :shk:
So people who disagree with you are 'obstructing and impeding truth'??
Seriously .. grow up.

Snowden is not a spy , if he was he will be now in Beijing or Moscow

And where is he now? Oh right ... in MOSCOW.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Oh right ... in MOSCOW.

Waiting in the Airport until he can get a safe flight out.

Hardly the Russian HQ.

Originally posted by crazyewok

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Oh right ... in MOSCOW.

Waiting in the Airport until he can get a safe flight out.

Hardly the Russian HQ.

Is that speculation or what you have been told, if so by whom?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by xavi1000
my signature is like people of you ,

Snowden is not a spy , if he was he will be now in Beijing or Moscow

And where is he now? Oh right ... in MOSCOW.

The New York Times' Moscow correspondent Ellen Barry flags a report in Russian in which President Vladimir Putin says Snowden is in a transit zone at Sheremetyevo International Airport.

Putin said that Snowden hasn't crossed the Russian border and is free to go anywhere

www.guardian.co.uk...

You need to grow up , read first then laugh

Your anti-American hate is irrational. There are plenty of things to dislike about in America.
But what you are making up is silly.
Your attempt to make America look as bad as China and Russia ... epic fail again.

Originally posted by cartenz
Because NO christan lobby groups influence American politics

Groups try. Secular rule of law means no laws are made from the attempt.

Where abortion doctors are shot, and clinics blown up by fundamental Christian psychos

How many ... exactly? Considering the hundreds of millions of people in this country, how many times has that happened?

Where John Lennon's Imagine was pulled from playlists after 911, because it might pacify the nation

Really? No laws were made for that to happen. If an individual radio station decided not to play it ... that would be their choice. The song sucks anyways .. no loss. (if that really happened)

Hyperbole

No. Abortions are forced in China under the one child policy. That's a fact.

Like the USA which supported the Taliban

And what's that got to do with China supporting N. Korea starving millions to death?

Where the US minimum wage is slave labour!

Minimum wage is not a 'living wage'. It's for unskilled labor. And it isn't even close to what China does with political prisoners being slave labor. To compare the two is pathetic.

America, where you create a whole genre of music to keep dark skinned people on crack

Reaching ... and downright silly.