Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

reply to post by cartenz


It is helpful to see everyone get their true and deepest feelings out here so we all know where each other is coming from in the future. When/If Snowden's actions shift from a man looking to see critical change in America to a man looking to do harm to it for the sake of doing harm? Then there is no question, lines or debate. He has become a traitor and is awfully young for how many years he'll have left to hide or run.

There is a world of difference between the two motivations, IMO.

reply to post by Tykonos

I'm not saying they might not want that information. I'm saying we don't know that they have gone after it and that we don't even know what information he has.

Innocent until proven guilty.

Besides, Russia might not want to touch this hot potato right now with everything else going on in the world. And again, we don't even really know where he is for sure. It may even be possible that he never even went to Russia. I think I saw something that said he was potentially spotted in Switzerland/Sweden. (Ugh, I always get those two countries confused!)

Originally posted by cartenz
Good. I have been waiting my whole life to see the evil empire burn like Rome.

Yeah .. because China and it's forced abortions is so much better. And Russia that throws a rock band in prison for 3 years because it dares write an anti-putin song is so much better. And China, that backs the North Korean regime that is mass starving it's people is so much better.

I mean that in the most contemptuous way.

reply to post by Computron

Can you please explain, all the national security secrets he has told them?

Some people are happy to stick their head in the sand and hope he has nothing worthy of value for Russia to use against the US.

There is indeed lots of speculation without little fact about what secrets he holds.

The point is, those secrets are now in Russia's hands, given to them by an American citizen.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Ummmmm WHAT NATIONAL SECURITY SECRETS DID HE GIVE?!

Originally posted by Heliophant
Innocent until proven guilty.

This is China and Russia we are talking about. OF COURSE they are going to milk as much super-secret info from Snowden as they possibly can. They want the downfall of America. To sit back and say 'innocent until proven guilty' doesn't work. This is international politics ... not an American court system.

reply to post by Heliophant

Besides, Russia might not want to touch this hot potato right now with everything else going on in the world.

Seriously????

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Agreed, but until we know whats going on, I can't say that he is in fact a bad guy. Until we find out for sure that he has maliciously attempted to aid foreign nations, we speculate. If and when that happens, I will change my tune. But right now, we don't know enough.

Originally posted by Tykonos


Some people are happy to stick their head in the sand and hope he has nothing worthy of value for Russia to use against the US.

There is indeed lots of speculation without little fact about what secrets he holds.

The point is, those secrets are now in Russia's hands, given to them by an American citizen.

Lol, so yall are getting so worked up, over something you know so little about? Wow. I mean for all we know he could be holding the secret recipe for kfc chicken!! "Oh god, please help the national security of kfc's original 5 piece recipe!!!!!"

Originally posted by Computron
Ummmmm WHAT NATIONAL SECURITY SECRETS DID HE GIVE?!

ummmmm What part of this is China and Russia that we are dealing with don't you get?
Snowden has had access to massive amounts of national security information. And he's
freely blabbing. COMMON SENSE ... Russia and China want the USA weakened and
Snowden is proudly blabbing. THEY HAVE SECRETS.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Heliophant
Innocent until proven guilty.

To sit back and say 'innocent until proven guilty' doesn't work.

So you say burn him at the stake just in case?

All I'm saying is that we don't know whats going on!! So lets stop drawing conclusions and stating things as fact that we do not know to be fact. We can speculate all day long, as long as we realize its just speculation.

reply to post by NickK3


I agree with Amnesty International on this one. And to those that say that Snowden spilled secrets to other countries, putting us in harms way - what proof do we have of that? From the media? From our government? How can we believe anything either of them say at this point? And does anyone really believe that those governments did not already know about our shenanigans?? I bet if someone went back through press releases and video over the years - they'd find that we have bragged about our capabilities many, many times - so to me, the whole point is moot. What could he have possibly told them that they either didn't already know, or couldn't find out on their own?

I think Snowden is one of the bravest people I have ever seen or heard about - and definitely one of the smartest. Just look at his timing! Unbelievable that TPTB didn't see it coming.... One person really can make a difference in the world. They thought they had him wrapped around their little finger - I mean, they had plenty of others wrapped. A nice paycheck - living in freaking Hawaii - who do you know that has this life? Better yet - who do you know that would give up that kind of life for the rest of us to know what is really going on? His employers bet on the fact that he, like the others, would be submissive once he was in a cushy situation - thank God they were wrong about at least one of them.

Keep running Snowden - go Man go!

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Computron
Ummmmm WHAT NATIONAL SECURITY SECRETS DID HE GIVE?!

ummmmm What part of this is China and Russia that we are dealing with don't you get?
Snowden has had access to massive amounts of national security information. And he's
freely blabbing. COMMON SENSE ... Russia and China want the USA weakened and
Snowden is proudly blabbing. THEY HAVE SECRETS.

Ummmmmmm I know WHO, it is. Secondly, Im asking if you know what they are, since you keep saying they DO. Im asking FOR YOUR FACTS ON WHAT THEY HAVE. Not your speculation on what they MIGHT HAVE. Thanks.

Guys, this has been fun, but I gotta run. Wrabbit, Tykonos, FlyersFan... all respected individuals in my book, thanks for the debate and your opposing opinions.

reply to post by Computron

Lol, so yall are getting so worked up, over something you know so little about? Wow. I mean for all we know he could be holding the secret recipe for kfc chicken!!

I don't see anyone getting worked up.

Taking State Secrets out of your own Country and into another Country that is an adversary to yours is right? Really?

Originally posted by Heliophant

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Heliophant
Innocent until proven guilty.

To sit back and say 'innocent until proven guilty' doesn't work.

So you say burn him at the stake just in case?

I'm not burning him at the stake. I"m saying use common sense. He's got national defense secrets. He's freely blabbing. He's in the hands of the enemies of our country and he's there of his own free will. Common sense ... he's not getting a pat on the back as a 'hero' until it's proven that he is one. And all things considered .. I doubt that will ever happen.

Originally posted by Tykonos

I don't see anyone getting worked up.

Taking State Secrets out of your own Country and into another Country that is an adversary to yours is right? Really?


Um I never said it was ok, but from the wording Ive been reading, (Ive read the whole thread btw) Yall seem truley scared as to what "he might have told" but yall dont even know what he has to begin with. I read "oh well he's telling about our computers, and how we operate." Computer coding can be changed, so we are still safe.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by crazyewok

 

There is no blurring at all in my opinion and he's no freedom fighter or nation builder. As an American, he's a whistle blower. As someone in the arms of our most serious adversaries, he may well be what he's accused of....even if it hadn't started that way. There are lines of going too far in both what he shares, given what he had access to offer ...and who it's all done with. Sharp, black lines. It's just how I see it. China and Russia aren't babes in the woods or above any of this....and it's starting to look like Snowden just flipped sides more than he's trying to see change.

Time will tell as this plays out.

I respect your opinion and can see were you are comeing from. At the moment we just dont know what he intentions are.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
As someone in the arms of our most serious adversaries

One thing im getting at is before 1776 France and spain were Americas greatest adversaries.

Let say in 10 years you goverment is still on the same course and thing have boiled up to breaking point.

Revolution is in the air. Would you and the others who are fighting the tyranny of the Goverment be willing to bite the bullet and accept Russian and Chinese aid? The same as your forefathers had to accept French and Spanish aid? Even though those two goverments were worse than the British!

A Revolution would mean fighting your Military and Security services? Would you be willing to let China and Russia seize control or attacked your military bases on non USA soil like in Korea, Twain, Cuba and the middle east so as to tie up your some of Military so they can not be used againt you? The same as France and spain attack holding in the carribean to tie up British Forces?

Russia and China would help for the same reason as France, to see a hyper power reduced to a more balanced superpower. Yes it would weaken the USA military and internationaly the same way the Revolution did. Without the Britain ruleing the USA it was initialy pretty weak and worse off.


You also have to decide who your enemys are in Goverment. Ok releasing certain information would weaken the CIA/NSA and your military operations. But at the moment they seem to be your enemys! If you marched on Washington next week to remove the traitors in office they would be used to stop you and maybe even kill you. To me you cant condem them in one hand and praise them and there work in the other. there are just tools of a evil goverment.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by cartenz
Good. I have been waiting my whole life to see the evil empire burn like Rome.

Yeah .. because China and it's forced abortions is so much better. And Russia that throws a rock band in prison for 3 years because it dares write an anti-putin song is so much better. And China, that backs the North Korean regime that is mass starving it's people is so much better.

I mean that in the most contemptuous way.

America: Where the fundiMENTAList christians want to make abortion illegal
America: Where Clear Channel put whole bands playlists on the not for broadcast list.

Yeah, you don't have a moral high ground, don't pretend to.

reply to post by Computron

Yall seem truley scared as to what "he might have told" but yall dont even know what he has to begin with. I read "oh well he's telling about our computers, and how we operate." Computer coding can be changed, so we are still safe.

I believe he may not have 'told' them anything by free-will. He's in a very desperate situation, again I don't know that for a fact, I can only speculate. Just like I can speculate on what information he holds. It may indeed be of total irrelevance to Russia and China and indeed may be totally useless to them.