Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

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posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 08:23 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Who says he's told anybody anything other than what he's released via the press? We don't even know where he is, so you aren't speaking in facts. Mere speculation. Snowden says he's spoken to no one but journalists and he's supposedly traveling with a small cadre of journalists and attorneys. I don't think he's even had an opportunity to talk to any Heads of State or Spook-Crews yet with all this wisking around.

Now, this last bit I will admit is my own speculation - but I get the impression that the countries he's passed through so far are slightly amused by this whole situation and they've let him travel without friction or questioning. It seems like those coutries have recognized that this political bombshell will play itself out, and have opted to take the high-road.

Besides, you think China and Russia were surprised by all this?

But of course, I could be very wrong. Would you acknowledge the same of yourself?



edit on 25-6-2013 by Heliophant because: (no reason given)



+2 more 
posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
- Don't say anything at all.

That makes him as guilty as anyone else.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then stay and fight like a patriot.

Would not have worked. The FBI would have thrown him in some dark hole and not allowed him to speak. So his message would not have worked its way out.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run.

If he had run to a US Ally he would have been shipped back by now and be in the same situation as above.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run and help America's enemies (China and Russia) by telling state secrets that weaken the defense of the USA.


First off All he has done is state the obvious that Russia and China would have know anyway. He has not exposed names and the mechisms of what they have done. All he has done is conferm what everyone knew anyway. So no harm really is done.

Secondly you may have to re evaluate who your "enemys" are. At the moment your main enemy is YOUR goverment. And you need help.

Your forefathers had to make the same decisions in 1776.

They did not have the money or power to go it alone so had to ally with French to win there independence. The French who were far more tyrannical than the British. The same French who were there mortal enemies just two decades before and who the colonists had to fight to stop them from invading there land. The same French who sent native war bands too raid there homes and kill there women. The same French who did not care really if the USA getting independence was right or wrong, it was just a chance to hurt there bitter enemies the British.

And lets no mention the other ally of the patriots the Spanish!

Snowdon is no more a traitor seeking help from the Russians and Chinese than the founding farther were traitors from seeking help from their enemys the French and Spanish.


edit on 25-6-2013 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)
edit on 25-6-2013 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by Heliophant
Who says he's told anybody anything other than what he's released via the press?

Really?
China acknowledges that Snowden has told them about how the USA hacks into China .. it's government, it's universities, it's military, ... how it's done .... all of it. And China and Russia both have had Snowden with all his download secrets and knowledge for weeks. You don't think they've squeezed the information from him? What ... you think they are just offering him tea and cookies and a warm bed to sleep in? You really don't think that this is Snowden aiding foreign powers against the USA?

Besides, you think China and Russia were surprised by all this?

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if it was planned by Snowden AND China all along.
I'd bet a box of donuts Snowden didn't just stumble upon information and decide to out it.
I'd bet that he targeted the job and position and made arrangements ahead of time with China.
I can't prove that, of course. Not yet anyways ...



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
[ You really don't think that this is Snowden aiding foreign powers against the USA?



You mean against your Goverment who is a more pressing enemy that China or Russia.



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if it was planned by Snowden AND China all along.
I'd bet a box of donuts Snowden didn't just stumble upon information and decide to out it.
I'd bet that he targeted the job and position and made arrangements ahead of time with China.
I can't prove that, of course. Not yet anyways ...


So you think that Snowden was a Chinese spy before he even got his job? That China recruited him to do what he is doing now?



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by crazyewok
He has not exposed names and the mechisms of what they have done.

Why would you say that? He has the names and workings. He knows it all. He has downloaded oooodles of information. He's spent weeks in the hands of China and now Russia. He has given up state secrets. So what makes you think that he'll just sit back at some point and say to the Chinese and Russians ... 'no, I"m a good American, I'm not going to tell you anymore' ...

Yeah, right. I've got a bridge to sell ya' ..


you may have to re evaluate who your "enemys" are. At the moment your main enemy is YOUR goverment. And you need help.

Telling China and Russia state secrets to weaken our defense is not helping to stop the NSA from spying on Americans. Not even close.

Snowdon is no more a traitor seeking help from the Russians and Chinese than the founding farther were traitors from seeking help from their enemys the French and Spanish.

Snowden is a traitor because he gave (and is giving) state secrets to China and Russia. Secrets that weaken America. It's just that simple. If he had just told the American people about NSA spying on them, and then he ran to save himself, I'd say he was a hero like Paul Revere or Nathan Hale. But instead ... he ran with state secrets in his pocket and is freely giving them to China and Russia. This weakens America.



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by RickKilgannon
So you think that Snowden was a Chinese spy before he even got his job? That China recruited him to do what he is doing now?

I'm saying that it wouldn't surprise me. I have no idea if he was or wasn't. But all things considered, and how fast he went to China and unloaded state secrets for them which severely hurt American national security ... it wouldn't surprise me if he targeted the position at the NSA ahead of time in order to do just what he is doing now.

He MAY have just been a geeky guy without a college degree who got a high paying job with the NSA handling tip-top secret information ... and he MAY have just stumbled upon information and he MAY have just ran to China with it squealing all the way .... OR it could have been set up ahead of time.

I don't know. Time will tell ...



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Todzer
It looks like he didn't have much of a choice though, .

He had a lot of choices ....
- Don't say anything at all.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then stay and fight like a patriot.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run and help America's enemies (China and Russia) by telling state secrets that weaken the defense of the USA.

He decided to do the last .... which means he isn't a patriot. He has harmed America.




I agree.

Firstly, I applaud Snowdon for leaking the info, the US government should be made to answer for what has come out. However, he's totally screwed not only the American people but its allies by running to the Chinese, now Russia with all the 'undisclosed information' he has on four laptops.

I've no doubt all those secrets are now in the hands and eyes of the Russian government and its allies.

How many of our spies and 'safe houses, have been compromised?

A new cold war has just started.



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


It weakens your goverment not you.


Washington and all the others mostly had to give some things to the french too as the french did not help you Americans out of the goodness of your heart.

My point is you may have accept the Russians and chinese as tempoary alllys if you want change..



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by Tykonos
I applaud Snowdon for leaking the info, the US government should be made to answer for what has come out. However, he's totally screwed not only the American people but its allies by running to the Chinese, now Russia with all the 'undisclosed information' he has on four laptops.


That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. If he had stopped with just telling about the NSA spying on Americans, then I'd have him up there with Paul Revere and Nathan Hale and the rest. But he then did the China and Russia thing .. and god only knows how many of our people he has killed by doing so ....



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


I don't get your reasoning in this at all, you have been saying he is unpatriotic for going to Russia and China, it is called self preservation. You wanted him to spill the beans then stick around for whatever punishment the criminals in Washington felt was appropriate. The ones that are unpatriotic are the ones in Washington not Snowden, he is trying to save his own ass because if he had not gone for help he would be locked up never to be seen again or dead, simple as. Just because he has the foresight to see what was coming does not make him a criminal it makes him human.



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by crazyewok
It weakens your goverment not you.

It weakens our national defense which puts us all in danger.

you may have accept the Russians and chinese as tempoary alllys if you want change..

Russia and China ??
Those governments spy on their citizens the same, if not worse, than the NSA spys on us. And they are milking Snowden for all the information they can from him in order to further weaken the USA and strengthen themselves. China and Russia are NOT allies of the USA. They are not looking out for us and they dont' care about us.



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by Todzer
I don't get your reasoning in this at all, you have been saying he is unpatriotic for going to Russia and China, it is called self preservation.

His 'self preservation' didn't require that he take state secrets of national security and hand them over to China and Russia. His 'self preservation' has probably killed MANY good Americans in the field who are working for our national security. That's pretty unpatriotic.



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:23 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


So do you think he should have kept his mouth shut then?
edit on 25/6/13 by Todzer because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by Todzer
 




I don't get your reasoning in this at all, you have been saying he is unpatriotic for going to Russia and China, it is called self preservation.


Running from corruption at home and into the arms of two far worse corrupt nations who are 'enemies' of your home Country with national defence secrets doesn't make you a hero in my eyes.

Like I say, i applaud his bravery for blowing the whistle. He became a traitor when he decided to run to HK (China)

Come on people, this is Russia and China we're talking about!

Russia is denying he'd even crossed their border the last I heard, so it seems he can kiss his ass goodbye.




edit on 25-6-2013 by Tykonos because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
I'm saying that it wouldn't surprise me. I have no idea if he was or wasn't. But all things considered, and how fast he went to China and unloaded state secrets for them which severely hurt American national security ... it wouldn't surprise me if he targeted the position at the NSA ahead of time in order to do just what he is doing now.

He MAY have just been a geeky guy without a college degree who got a high paying job with the NSA handling tip-top secret information ... and he MAY have just stumbled upon information and he MAY have just ran to China with it squealing all the way .... OR it could have been set up ahead of time.

I don't know. Time will tell ...


To me if he was recruited to do this by the Chinese, then he would have went straight to China and not to Hong Kong. He would be set up in a safe place in China and would not be seeking asylum in any other country.



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by crazyewok
It weakens your goverment not you.

It weakens our national defense which puts us all in danger.

you may have accept the Russians and chinese as tempoary alllys if you want change..

Russia and China ??
Those governments spy on their citizens the same, if not worse, than the NSA spys on us. And they are milking Snowden for all the information they can from him in order to further weaken the USA and strengthen themselves. China and Russia are NOT allies of the USA. They are not looking out for us and they dont' care about us.


And france was a more tyranical goverment than Britain and cared little about americans yet your forefathers went to them for help.......

Get the point.

And your revolution put your whole nations security in danger!

You may have to take some risks and trust your enemys even if for a short time if you want to win. Your forefather knew that.



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:32 AM
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reply to post by Tykonos
 


I was okay with him using Hong Kong as a legal loophole to stay safe.

When he changed from being an American whistle blower to full and proper defector to an adversarial nation, he became something else. I'm still trying to determine in my own thinking, just how far that represents. This isn't a lot of room when someone has tossed their citizenship in exchange for selling out everything they were entrusted with while serving the nation.

Indeed.. He did see abuses and it was right to blow hard on the whistle of public attention ...but his adult life has been split between CIA payroll work and NSA contract work. He's a friggin nightmare to see turn defector.
edit on 25-6-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by Tykonos
Running from corruption at home and into the arms of two far worse corrupt nations who are 'enemies' of your home Country with national defence secrets doesn't make you a hero in my eyes.

Like I say, i applaud his bravery for blowing the whistle. He became a traitor when he decided to run to HK (China)

Come on people, this is Russia and China we're talking about!


If he would have stayed in the US or would have went to one of the US's allies then he would have been caught and put into a black hole never to be seen or heard from again. To save his life after he outed the NSA he had to go to a country that would not cave to US demand.



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 09:35 AM
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reply to post by Tykonos
 


That's the thing people are outraged that he has gone to China and Russia but it is ok that he spilled about what is going on in America, they don't want a patriot they want a martyr and to be honest the man has put his own life on the line enough, as I said in an earlier post he is trying to keep himself alive and it comes at a price, these countries ain't going to help him out of the goodness of their heart's. If people want anyone to blame try looking in Washington, it would be the best place to start.
edit on 25/6/13 by Todzer because: (no reason given)





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