Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by cartenz

 

Deflection attempt and failure on your part.
America .. where secular rule of law makes none of that happen.
America ... where abortions are not forced like they are in China.
America ... where you don't go to jail for writing anti-Obama songs.

China ... where abortions are forced.
China .. which supports North Korea starving millions of humans to death.
China ... with slave labor for policial prisoners.
Russia .. where you get thrown in jail for writing anti-Putin songs.
Russia .. where you get thrown in jail with no charges and no trial for years.

America..where you get 13 years for writing anti-bank statements in CHALK on the sidewalk. California man faces 13 years for writing anti-bank messages in chalk[/url]

America..where if they "say or THINK you are a terrorist you can be held without trial indefinitely.

The most controversial provisions to receive wide attention were contained in subsections 1021-1022 of Title X, Subtitle D, entitled "Counter-Terrorism," authorizing the indefinite military detention of persons the government suspects of involvement in terrorism, including U.S. citizens arrested on American soil. Although the White House[12] and Senate sponsors[13] maintain that the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) already grants presidential authority for indefinite detention

en.wikipedia.org...
America.. that uses drones to kill people and so kills innocents along with their "suspects".

America.. that supports "rebel forces" (read "terrorists"), that are committing atrocities.

This report published by Der Spiegel reveals the true face of the so-called “Opposition”, supported and upheld by the “international community” in the name of democracy. The gruesome details provided in this report on “the burial brigade” provide ample evidence of crimes against humanity committed by the US-NATO sponsored rebel brigades, largely integrated by mercenaries. A system of “burial brigades” for those executed confirms an organized process of mass-murder and extra-judicial killings. This single “burial brigade”, according to the executioner’s testimony, was responsible for the arbitrary execution of 350-400 people including “prisoners” and “traitors”. The “traitors” are Sunni civilians within the occupied urban and rural areas, who express their opposition to the rule of terror of the Free Syrian Army (FSA): “Since last summer, we have executed slightly fewer than 150 men, which represents about 20 percent of our prisoners,” says Abu Rami. … But the executioners of Homs have been busier with traitors within their own ranks than with prisoners of war. “If we catch a Sunni spying, or if a citizen betrays the revolution, we make it quick,” says the fighter. According to Abu Rami, Hussein’s burial brigade has put between 200 and 250 traitors to death since the beginning of the uprising.” The important question which the Spiegel report does not address is: Who is behind these rebel groups? What is the command structure? Who decides on the arbitrary killing of civilians, categorized as`”traitors”. The executioner is a young man obeying orders. How many burial brigades have been set up by the Free Syrian Army (FSA)? Despite the documented atrocities committed by the rebel FSA army –as conveyed in the Spiegel report– the legitimacy of the “opposition” is not questioned.

www.globalresearch.ca...

Syrian rebels say they are at a turning point in the two-year conflict against President Bashar Assad’s forces, and that for the first time they have an organized, unified command that will now also benefit from a shipment of weapons from the United States. The Obama administration decided this month to provide military aid to the rebels, with the first shipment expected within the next two weeks. Meanwhile, rebels already wear American-supplied uniforms, use American radios and eat U.S. military rations. The United States has also been providing $2.5 million cash every month, they said.

worldnews.nbcnews.com...

America..that SUPPORTS Chinese slave labour by BUYING the products that slave labour PRODUCES.

MASANJIA, China — The cry for help, a neatly folded letter stuffed inside a package of Halloween decorations sold at Kmart, traveled 5,000 miles from China into the hands of a mother of two in Oregon.

www.nytimes.com...

America is not so innocent is it? so get off your high horse already.

Originally posted by MountainLaurel

Lets get real about China too.....Our Corporate Government sold us out to China a long time ago....for God's sake, we have given them land, infrastructure and access to strategic ports on the West Coast and now our Government wants to pretend they are our enemy?!

You hit the nail on the head here.

Our traitorous government and their Bankster created economic foreign policies have done more damage to this country, and helped build up China not only economically, but militarily as well. Corporate and Technological know how was passed on to them, our "enemy" with our politicians blessing.

The biggest enemies in this country are the Politicians and Wall Street Bankers that sold out this country a long time ago for a few copper shillings.

Originally posted by WhiteAlice
If you're about to become public enemy number one of your country of residence, then running to those countries who have the least pleasant relationship with said country would almost guarantee that they would not be so keen on simply handing you over.

Given the amount of criminals and traitors in our government, that make up laws on the fly to make the illegal, legal, or the legal, illegal where there is profit and control to be had, the last place I would want to be as Snowden, is here in the US, or with another country that would have to hand him over.


That only leaves us with other places that our government does not have puppets in, or the Banksters do not control the place. Russia and China are the 2 biggest that come to mind. He made a wise choice.

This is a PR War between truth tellers and liars and Snowden is not the Liar in this case.

Originally posted by neo96

So Russia and China are 'beacons of freedom, and democracy and liberty' ?

Well our Country the USA is certainly no beacon to it either.

Where is the Beacon of Freedom with spying on our own citizens, DHS, Patriot Act, Increased Checkpoints, and an Increasing Militarized Police Force?

Where is our democracy when it is up for sale to the highest bidder?

What a JOKE!

rbth.ru...

I wanted to post this yesterday, but wasn't sure exactly where I read it so I went digging through my library of sorts. A year ago, I Remember, reading the story in Russia Beyond the Borders magazine, about these Russian hackers that would be working under Obama admin, etc., to spy on computers, hacking and so forth. I Remember because the article was talking about how advanced these experts were and how excited the US government was, etc., Defence and all that, to be hiring them and all that...

This whole time with Snowden and the going back and forth about Russia not extraditing Snowden and several here in regards to China and Russia not being friends with the US and well I just thought this to be Way weird,

If they are not friends, then why are they working together on a global network where they have ultimate control and can "hack" to see Dissenters, etc. I Remember the article, pictures too, because it just seemed a bit weird that these hackers would be looking at US computers, for hacktivists, or dissenters,

Which they mentioned several times. This was a YEAR AGO,

Relevant? Well I'll leave that for you all to decide, but again, it was in a Russian magazine, I could not say if these was even in American news or not.

One VERY interesting quote IN the article and if memory serves me right the "Guardian" did cover this story,

But IN the article it says, that the Russian hackers would Not agree, in the stipulations, to hack/spy into Russian computers as That would make then TRAITORS. Now, Why would they feel compelled to state such a stipulation to begin with?

Remember, this was a year ago, therefore the Russian hackers, aka as well as the government of Russia already apparently knew there would be hacking/spying, etc going on, that would be deemd Treacherous if done to ones own government, otherwise that statement wouldn't have been included...then the article goes on about hacking etc., international scale and so forth,

But, don't you find that a bit odd? Obviously the international at least where the agreements between certain parties are concerned, we're Way we'll aware of the implications before the name Snowden even came up. What that means, I do not know, but I highly doubt that Russia is like shocked or dismayed at the allegations that Snowden made or that this is some new mysterious news, Hardly,

Again, these were entire Systems being worked on, from what the article says, excluding under emphasis or sugar coating, which the media does quite often. This sounds to me more like a giant rats club and one of the rats developed a conscious OR was not aware at just how extensive these "hacking" programs were going to be...maybe it's not just About spying, only,

Maybe it's also about the ability to Frame individuals or companies to gain an advantage over OR entire take downs...a kind of cyber blackmail system. I seriously don't think the government cares one way or another about spying on Johny's bingo obsession or porn visits, UNLESS it's something they can utilize to take down whole companies, judges, etc in a big power way, one could mass enormous POWER with this kind of ability,

Wouldn't even need a voting system, that much CONTROL over the tech grid, would be like one giant octopus ruling the world with its tentacles in Everything....and then some. Not just nation tyranny,

But GLOBAL TYRANNY.

That's some scary # when you consider the ramifications of That kind of power among a small few.

Originally posted by Tykonos
It seems people are upset at others speculating whilst they are doing the same in countering others opinions.

Really?

if you're gonna take a shot at me, at least have the balls to do it by name, ok?

and speculation SHOULD be shouted down when it has no basis in reality. passing off speculation and opinion as fact is poor form, and contributes nothing productive to the debate.

That's what FF did, and i called him/her/it/wtfever on it...

Originally posted by sonnny1
First, you limited yourself when you said current Administration! Look at your own qoute.....

i never said "current administration", i said "current SOP"....which could have originated several administrations ago...

Second, Manning has spoken.

When/where? as i said, i can find nothing recent.

You STILL haven't shown those whistleblowers silenced! Wheres your proof?

those journalists? read about the damn cases... i think now you're just arguing to argue..

I brought up gitmo because theres no American whistleblowers being held there.Its a prison. That is the one place if you go to that your rights really dont matter. Yes you can be burried there.

yes, YOU brought up GITMO, not me....you claimed i had said there were american citizens being held in gitmo....is reading really THAT much of an issue for you?

and wow...i guess somehow, while i was asleep, GITMO became the ONLY prison in the entire country...

But you used the word killed.

yes, i used killed for murdered, and hole for prison, or other undesirable place of incarceration..

Give me proof. Quit trying to play the Alex Jones game making wild accusations with no evidence. Why would I apologize for asking for proof?

and what exactly would you want as proof? anything i provide to you will be disregarded so you can continue arguing for the sake of arguing..

the only one playing games here is you...it's called the "misdirect, argue, and derail 'til they shut it down" game...i'm not playing it anymore...get on topic, or i'm reporting you to administration.

this isn't going to be another thread full of you mindlessly mocking people, and accusing them of "living vicariously through homeboy dorner"(thought we all forgot about that, didn't you?)

Originally posted by zeeon
reply to post by imalitehaus

 

To the uneducated, it might appear that the US Constitution is the supreme law of the land.
Something can be LEGAL and still appear to be un-constitutional.
What the NSA has done (or is doing still) hasn't been ruled UN-CONSTITUTIONAL.

You and I may think or believe it may be - but as of yet - IT IS NOT.

That is the difference. Just because you think it is, doesn't make it so.

edit on 26-6-2013 by zeeon because: typo...it's early

ok, so firstly, the constitution IS the supreme law of the land. the fact that you think otherwise tells me there's something wrong with your education.

so the word of the law is no longer relevant? even though what they're doing clearly violates the 4th amendment, as well as an executive order, and an act of congress......but it's not illegal....right...

just because a bunch of politicians in robes say dog means cat doesn't make it so....anyone capable of reading text written in engllish, can plainly see that what is going on is a violation of the supreme law of the land.

Originally posted by zeeon
Why don't you try using those logical deduction skills you claim to have. I'm sure it will come to you.
It's not that difficult to figure out. Whistleblowers and journalists have been doing it for years.

Case in point - Stuxnet and Flame. Source code wasn't leaked was it? Yet, we found out about it.
We found out about our nations Cyberwarfare capabilities. Yet, the *DETAILS* of how that technology actually worked - was not released by the whistleblower, was it?

That is the difference. Snowden released the entire program - not just the fact (with corraborating information) that the NSA is spying.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof....

i doubt the man would have been taken seriously if he had gone to HK, met with the press, and said something along the lines of "the NSA is spying on anyone....but i can't show you anything to prove it, because it's seeeeeeeeekret...." computer viruses are different...if you release source code, the media needs to have someone look at it first, to tell them if it's super-badass tech, or just a thing to make your computer make fart noises when you visit a site with boobies on it....

and computer viruses like stuxnet aren't really huge news either.....yes, they're still bad, but they're not earth-shattering... an illegal nationwide surveillance program against the american people, by their own government IS huge news...it's an extraordinary claim, which requires extraordinary proof....it's kinda like when manning released those videos to wikileaks....nobody would have taken him at his word about the events in the videos....that required some serious evidence..

so really. no, you can't leak something THIS big without leaking it...

Originally posted by zeeon

Now you are asking me what I believe - do not confuse my personal beliefes with the reasons why we have PRISM / NSA Spying now.

I believe to spend billions of dollars to prevent something that I, personally, have a 99% chance of never encountering (terrorism) is stupid and wasteful. I was, and still am against the Patriot Act and the NSA activities - but not because they are spying on me.

I am against this because I refuse to live in fear of something that has such a little chance of affecting me, my family or friends at all, in our lifetime. I am more afraid of the asshole driver on the freeway on my way to work every day then some radical jihadist. I am more afraid of dying of heart disease then some radical jihadist.

Yet, *I* didn't vote for this. I shouted and told as many people as I could not to allow the Patriot Act.
My minority voice (minority in the sense that my opinion was not of the majority) was drowned out by the multitude of American's who were so scared of Terrorism that they allowed the Patriot Act to come into existence. The very same American's now who cry foul now that we know the NSA is spying on American's to prevent the very thing THEY ASKED THEM TO DO.

It so very hypocritical to see so many people in here cry foul at the NSA when it was they who were the very ones who brought this upon the rest of us. It's also so hyprocritical to see the multitudes of posters in here congratulate and praise a traitor who betrayed his country - the very same country that was doing the very thing the MAJORITY OF AMERICANS ASKED THEM TO DO.

I am here to explain to people that they got what they asked for.

i'm asking you to defend your position on PRISM, and explain why you are of the opinion that it is necessary...

you're sitting here defending a program that is clearly illegal.

i don't even know why i'm still replying to you....

you claim to be in disagreement with programs, and other things the government is doing, and then in the next breath, you defend them....you make no sense...you seem to believe that the federal government is not subject to the law (by implying that the constitution isn't supreme law), and that they can do what they want, because it's somehow necessary to national security.....

so i will ask you again: Do you believe that PRISM is a national security secret, and essential to the preservation of the historically traditional american way of life, and the continued existence of these united states?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Exactly! It was cool when he told us. But the minute he told others he became a traitor. And should be hung or put in front of a firing sqaud. Its as simple as that. We should hunt him down and bring him to justice. So no one else gets any more stupid ideas and think they can hide in russia or china or where the hell ever!

reply to post by NickK3


You know the part I don't get about the NSA monitoring is why they are doing the stuff in China and Hong Kong.

China supports us with North Korea. China put their foot down with North Korea.

I understand preventing acts of terror, but I don't get the NSA stuff with Hong Kong and China.

Originally posted by thegreatone68
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Exactly! It was cool when he told us. But the minute he told others he became a traitor. And should be hung or put in front of a firing sqaud. Its as simple as that. We should hunt him down and bring him to justice. So no one else gets any more stupid ideas and think they can hide in russia or china or where the hell ever!

you're joking, right?

ok, so how exactly is he supposed to tell us (the american people), without telling the media?

because once you tell the media, EVERYONE will know....so by default, in order to tell us (by using the media), you hafta tell other people...

what FF was talking about is him allegedly giving away "state secrets", and "national defense secrets", and "hurting america"...when there was absolutely ZERO proof that any such thing had occurred, and trying to pass it off as verified fact.

so, pretty much, by your statement, you believe ALL whistleblowers should be hunted down and killed, because you can't blow the whistle without going to the media, and once you go to the media, you're not just telling the people of your native land, but everybody in every land....

Originally posted by Miracula
reply to post by NickK3

 

You know the part I don't get about the NSA monitoring is why they are doing the stuff in China and Hong Kong.

China supports us with North Korea. China put their foot down with North Korea.

I understand preventing acts of terror, but I don't get the NSA stuff with Hong Kong and China.

that's the thing, it's not just china and hong kong....it's everywhere...every country of a sufficient level of sophistication watches how ever many countries they have the resources to watch..be it by electronic means, or good old fashion operatives in the field...

it's not necessarily anything personal, it's just SOP..

What i didn't understand so far is this:
Did the guy release only information related to NSA/CIA/other intel organization spying on everyone everywhere OR did he also release info that could potentially weaken USA's defense system [whatever that info might be].
If it's the former, let the guy be. If the it's the later, yes, he committed treason.

[example]
Half of the people using a PC already knows they're being monitored, and a half of these users might not care. [i don't see this as treason]
However only a very few people would care to know that the White House's fence is unguarded for 30 seconds on the left side, for a distance of an 1 inch. You can dig or jump in that place and then see the president in his pajamas hula dancing. [I see this as treason]

Originally posted by Kryscent
What i didn't understand so far is this:
Did the guy release only information related to NSA/CIA/other intel organization spying on everyone everywhere OR did he also release info that could potentially weaken USA's defense system [whatever that info might be].
If it's the former, let the guy be. If the it's the later, yes, he committed treason.

[example]
Half of the people using a PC already knows they're being monitored, and a half of these users might not care. [i don't see this as treason]
However only a very few people would care to know that the White House's fence is unguarded for 30 seconds on the left side, for a distance of an 1 inch. You can dig or jump in that place and then see the president in his pajamas hula dancing. [I see this as treason]

as has been stated before many times in this thread, there is no proof that any substantive, or measurably harmful information has been given to ANYONE, this includes the press...

in other words, there's no proof he furnished anyone with information that is harmful to the national defense.

reply to post by Daedalus


ah, ok. i was trying to make sure, as i dont have enough time on my hands to read some 16 pages.
thank you for the clarification, buddy.

Originally posted by Daedalus
what FF was talking about is him allegedly giving away "state secrets", and "national defense secrets", and "hurting america"...when there was absolutely ZERO proof that any such thing had occurred, and trying to pass it off as verified fact.

Did he reveal anything that the Taliban and Al-Quaeda wasn't aware of given that I have heard there are indications that they had changed their behavior even before Snowden due to their awareness?

reply to post by Daedalus

Basicly what im saying is i really dought hes sitting in some room at a airport afraid to come back home for nothing. Somebody everywhere hes been has most likely took a look at the supposed laptop he is carrying with him. And maybe i am being harsh about hunting him down and killing.................not god bless america.we have no room for turncoats and traitors. Im sure he took some kind of oath before he joined those organizations.

Originally posted by thegreatone68
reply to post by Daedalus

 

Basicly what im saying is i really dought hes sitting in some room at a airport afraid to come back home for nothing. Somebody everywhere hes been has most likely took a look at the supposed laptop he is carrying with him. And maybe i am being harsh about hunting him down and killing.................not god bless america.we have no room for turncoats and traitors. Im sure he took some kind of oath before he joined those organizations.

Huh.

Punctuation?

Grammar?

What is this?!

Are you serious?