Science and the Conscious Force that is in all

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Kashai
Matter is Energy (E=mc2) from a perspective.

Any thoughts?

Only that consciousness is not in that equation.

Are you suggesting that it will never be?

decisions are made by unconscious me 7 seconds before conscious me…

Through our own personal accumulated experiences, observations, and knowledge,... the mid-brain dopamine system (MDS) of our brain helps to create predictions and expectations of our near future. If you see dark clouds and hear thunder, you could next imagine rain, because past experiences have correlated rain with dark clouds and thunder in your mind. In the same way, our brains predict the most potential outcome of any existential equation of experience/observation. Almost like a 'subconscious programming.'

In regards to a metaphysical quality,... every moment is an expression of infinite potential. All exists as One, transcendent of time.

The human brain predicts the future as best as it can. Here to enjoy the illusionary gift of relative-subjectivity as a mortal human being 'Now.' The All who is One has/is/will express infinity at every space/time. The One is all that was, all that is, and all that ever will be. Far beyond even the conceptual glory and conceivable illustrations as a [micro + macro] infinity at every subatomic particle. Even more grand than that is One!


• Human: Here to enjoy the illusionary gift of experience and separation through the mechanisms of ego, relativity, subjectivity, and space/time.

• Essence: Been there, done that. Here, there, and everywhere.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by jiggerj

 

If you don't want to hear one of the possibilities than you cannot possibly accept the truth, whether it is that "consciousness has always existed" or something completely different. You have to be open to any answer that is given to you. At this point, the metaphysics aren't even important. It's the internal process in which you view the metaphysics (and everything else).

Quite right. To Just Believe that an intelligent entity of any kind has always been and always will be, without any process of itself being created is pure folly. We could just as well start a whole new religion on the eternal plaid dragon that sacrificed its tail for us - hey, prove that this dragon doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Kashai

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Kashai
Matter is Energy (E=mc2) from a perspective.

Any thoughts?

Only that consciousness is not in that equation.

Are you suggesting that it will never be?

Yes, actually, because that equation is part of the process that created consciousness. Well, created OUR consciousness.

reply to post by jiggerj


The problem is that we live in a world that accepts 'somethingness' as a reality. We think there a 'things', distinct from other 'things'. We think that certain 'things' cause other 'things' to do 'something'. But these are only concepts. Really there is nothing. Nothing within nothing doing nothing acting like nothing becoming nothing. But even this is just a concept.

Anything that the mind conjures up to try and explain anything, isn't really explaining anything at all. Because there's nothing to explain, nothing to conceptualize. That's what concepts are, just another formless form of nothing appearing in nothing.

It's just nothing. Not even a void, not even emptiness, just nothing. Really, not even nothing. This world we live in seems like something but it's not. If you look at an object you realize that it lacks any describable properties at all. We can only compare this thing to that thing. This pen is red. What is red? It's a color. What is a color?
See? It's nothing.

Consciousness is not an intelligent entity because there is nothing to know. To talk about anything other than consciousness is absurd because consciousness is all there is. But the term 'consciousness' is misleading because we associate it with something. But you see the problem with that. In truth, there really isn't any consciousness. There is no way for me to explain this, but even if there was it would not make a difference.

reply to post by HarryTZ


I and I met this "emptiness" and "nothingness". I and I were quite lonely and bored. Oh what trifles and illusions we have painted here for our own folly! The door that leads back is always at hand, though we oftentimes look everywhere except the obvious, enchanted by our own devices.

Originally posted by Kgnow
reply to post by HarryTZ

 

I and I met this "emptiness" and "nothingness". I and I were quite lonely and bored. Oh what trifles and illusions we have painted here for our own folly! The door that leads back is always at hand, though we oftentimes look everywhere except the obvious, enchanted by our own devices.

What is there to experience loneliness and boredom? If the mind is presenting itself it is possibly, otherwise no.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Kashai
Matter is Energy (E=mc2) from a perspective.

Any thoughts?

Only that consciousness is not in that equation.

But the equation exists within consciousness.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by jiggerj

 

If you don't want to hear one of the possibilities than you cannot possibly accept the truth, whether it is that "consciousness has always existed" or something completely different. You have to be open to any answer that is given to you. At this point, the metaphysics aren't even important. It's the internal process in which you view the metaphysics (and everything else).

Quite right. To Just Believe that an intelligent entity of any kind has always been and always will be, without any process of itself being created is pure folly. We could just as well start a whole new religion on the eternal plaid dragon that sacrificed its tail for us - hey, prove that this dragon doesn't exist.

What if I told you that somewhere out there, that dragon does exist?

Would you like to meet him?

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Kashai

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Kashai
Matter is Energy (E=mc2) from a perspective.

Any thoughts?

Only that consciousness is not in that equation.

Are you suggesting that it will never be?

Yes, actually, because that equation is part of the process that created consciousness. Well, created OUR consciousness.

So what you are saying is that mankind is incapable of solving certain problems inherent to nature?

reply to post by jiggerj

Originally posted by jiggerj
Energy is used to create everything.

You say "energy" being used to created "everything" as if Everything and Energy are two different things which is not the case.

Energy IS everything. NOTHING is created. Things are FORMED out of the already existing energy.


Second Law of Thermal Dynamics:

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed or transferred.

This "change" gives the illusion of things being "created" when all things are just being FORMED of already existing energy.

So yes, Consciousness is energy because EVERYTHING is energy.

Thanks for the responses.

Like I said, materialism doesn't make any sense. You don't here non energy or non information. Energy and information is just in high or low states of entropy.

There's no such thing as non life.

It's just one consciousness being expressed differently. When consciousness is in a complex form like the human body, it's self conscious. When consciousness is in a tree or a flower, it's conscious but it's not in a complex form that's self conscious and that's aware of will and intent.

In a tree, you can still see will and intent when the tree grows it's just the tree isn't in a form that's complex enough to be self conscious.

I also think absent form, consciousness is pure awareness. This is why people say they're more aware during near death experiences. So if we were to reach equilibrium, this fundamental force of consciousness would be fully aware because it's not bound by form.

reply to post by HarryTZ

The problem is that we live in a world that accepts 'somethingness' as a reality.

The problem is that we are always ready to accept ideas that can't be proven. It's perfectly fine to toss these ideas around, but when we start calling something a truth before it can be validated we run the risk of sending science down a wrong alley for possibly centuries.

Here we are, apparently a bunch of somethings living in something called a universe where we can't even reduce something to nothing, yet many are claiming that this is all a bunch of nothing. We HAVE to accept this somethingness because that's what all evidence points to, with absolutely NO evidence pointing any other way.

Originally posted by Kashai


So what you are saying is that mankind is incapable of solving certain problems inherent to nature?

Please forgive if I'm going off track. This is why I usually jump out of threads that get too long. I forget what the heck we were talking about in the first place. I believe we were debating whether or not a consciousness is behind everything and that this consciousness has always been there.

So, when you ask if we are incapable of solving certain problems inherent to nature, I can only reply in this way: If there were a controlling consciousness, and if we were a part of that consciousness, then not only would there not be problems in nature, but we would be able to create and rewrite the nature of a thing. Today we claim that E=MC^. Tomorrow we would simply change this law to make time travel easy.

But, we can't do this because we don't create knowledge; we only uncover the laws that are already there. At the moment an environment is created there are certain conditions also created that are natural and unbreakable. If a single consciousness existed, there had to have been an environment created that was suitable for forming and maintaining that consciousness. Consciousness cannot first create an environment for consciousness to form in. It's just not logical.

Energy IS everything. NOTHING is created. Things are FORMED out of the already existing energy. ...

So yes, Consciousness is energy because EVERYTHING is energy.

reply to post by arpgme


Now you're just playing with words, and yet your own words betray you. If things are formed out of energy, then there is energy first, and then the transformation of that energy into other things: planets for example. Can you say that planets always existed because planets are energy? Of course not. Then how can you claim that consciousness always existed if it had to be formed out of energy?

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by HarryTZ

 

The problem is that we live in a world that accepts 'somethingness' as a reality.

The problem is that we are always ready to accept ideas that can't be proven. It's perfectly fine to toss these ideas around, but when we start calling something a truth before it can be validated we run the risk of sending science down a wrong alley for possibly centuries.

Here we are, apparently a bunch of somethings living in something called a universe where we can't even reduce something to nothing, yet many are claiming that this is all a bunch of nothing. We HAVE to accept this somethingness because that's what all evidence points to, with absolutely NO evidence pointing any other way.

There's no evidence that points to somethingness. In fact...
www.newscientist.com...
I've posted this link multiple times in multiple threads, it really helps prove my points

Originally posted by jiggerj
if it [consciousness] had to be formed out of energy?

Where has this been proven? Nowhere, because it's just an assumption. Scientists just assume consciousness is the result of neural activity because they don't think there could be any other explanation. Not very scientific, if I may say so myself.

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by jiggerj
if it [consciousness] had to be formed out of energy?

Where has this been proven? Nowhere, because it's just an assumption. Scientists just assume consciousness is the result of neural activity because they don't think there could be any other explanation. Not very scientific, if I may say so myself.

edit on 25-6-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)

Good points and I believe Consciousness is a fundamental force like gravity. Gravity interacts with energy and matter and this is why gravity is different on other planets. This is the same with consciousness. It interacts with energy and matter and when it's in complex form it can be self conscious and it's expressed differently in simple form.

Originally posted by HarryTZ



There's no evidence that points to somethingness. In fact...
www.newscientist.com...
I've posted this link multiple times in multiple threads, it really helps prove my points

Two words from that article sum it up nicely "Theory says"

Like I said, it's fun to go all philosophical on this stuff, but we can't take it seriously when ALL the evidence points to somethingness. We touch things. We eat things. We feel pain when something on our body is injured. Absolutely everything points to somethingness. We can't say, oh yeah, but it's all in our minds, or the space between atoms in 99% empty blah blah blah. No, no, no - no matter how you color it, we're still something.

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by jiggerj
if it [consciousness] had to be formed out of energy?

Where has this been proven? Nowhere, because it's just an assumption. Scientists just assume consciousness is the result of neural activity because they don't think there could be any other explanation. Not very scientific, if I may say so myself.

edit on 25-6-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)

Why should science endear itself to the illogical and unprovable? With your way of thinking, then science would have to go searching for consciousness in fire hydrants and dog poo. It's just not logical, and it's a total waste of time.

Let's put it this way: It's logical to 'assume' that consciousness comes solely from the mind, where it is totally illogical to assume that a universal consciousness is making a song play itself over and over and over in my head.

If even the slightest of evidence suggested that we are nothing but receivers for a universal consciousness, all convicted murderers would have to be released from prison. Hey, it wasn't their fault, it was the universal consciousness working through them.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by HarryTZ



There's no evidence that points to somethingness. In fact...
www.newscientist.com...
I've posted this link multiple times in multiple threads, it really helps prove my points

Two words from that article sum it up nicely "Theory says"

Like I said, it's fun to go all philosophical on this stuff, but we can't take it seriously when ALL the evidence points to somethingness. We touch things. We eat things. We feel pain when something on our body is injured. Absolutely everything points to somethingness. We can't say, oh yeah, but it's all in our minds, or the space between atoms in 99% empty blah blah blah. No, no, no - no matter how you color it, we're still something.

edit on 6/26/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Just because you say we're something doesn't make it true. All evidence points towards immateriality. You might not agree with that but it doesn't change the facts. Plus, if you think about it a little, you realize that 'somethingness' doesn't even make any sense. What even is somethingness? If there was 'pure somethingness' what would make it any different from pure nothingness?