Snowden en route from H.K. to Moscow: report

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
umm yeah because the USA gives everyone at Guantanamo Bay a trial.

ummm yeah, because those in GITMO are not American citizens and they do not have the same Constitutional rights as American citizens do.

Massive spying programs, really? yeah no way would the american government ever spy on its people lol!!!!

I didn't say that America wasn't spying on it's people. I CORRECTLY stated that the USA isn't as bad as China or Russia on human rights issues for it's citizens.

Right back atchya. I noticed you totally ignored the information I posted and instead just blathered anti-USA sentiments and rhetoric.

Yep, blinded by patriotism.

Not even close. However, it seems you are unable to see straight due to those anti-USA goggles you are wearing. I suggest you take them off and address the issues and facts I posted. That would go a lot further than just using gimmicky catch phrases.

You think China and Russia have more freedoms and are better for citizens than the USA? Really? How about you go live there for a while and find out. Go to China and try to have more than one child. Go to Russia and say something negative about Putin . Go educate yourself on reality and get back to us ..... :shk:

Originally posted by johncarter
So this is what "Brainwashed" by big brother looks like. Thank you.

Childish post. :shk:

How about you address the facts that I posted? You think that the USA is worse than China or Russia? Really. Go live there and say something negative about Putin. Go to China and try to have more than one child. Go ahead. After you educate yourself on the realities of life in those countries, get back to us.

reply to post by redoubt

I can't speak to his treatment during incarceration. I don't know which stories are true and which aren't . There is a lot of posturing going on with both sides. All I can say is that Manning took an oath and he betrayed his country. He wasn't a whistleblower or a patriot. Manning is a different story than Snowden. Snowdens case is convoluted. Mannings is not.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
Where else was Snowden supposed to go?

Stay and fight. He made the choice to tell what what happening with the NSA in regards to American citizens. If he had revealed that and did the patriot thing ... he would have the American people behind him. However, he chose to go to China and then Russia, who are worse, and he chose to tell those governments secrets about the American government. This makes Snowden a traitor ... not a hero.

If he had stuck with telling the American people about NSA ... he would have done okay with protection as a whistlelblower because a HUGE number of Americans on both the right and left are behind him.

But he went further ... and so he has shown that he's not a patriot but instead is something else (yet to be named).

He would end up locked up like Bradley Manning if he stayed in the US, Manning's US support means diddleysquat

Manning is a completely different story. Manning was not a hero.
Manning harmed his country. He didn't help it.
Snowden and Manning aren't even in the same category.

ameri
Didn't work for Bradley. And he doesn't have the American people behind him. He has the educated folks on websites like ATS behind him, and Libertarians, and such. But the average American is alright with the Government becoming a dictatorship as long as they can continue watching their American Idol, and football. They just don't care, and the media will spin him (as it has done) into a common spy, so that everybody who gets their talking points from FOX and CNN and all the others will know their marching orders.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by redoubt

 

I can't speak to his treatment during incarceration. I don't know which stories are true and which aren't . There is a lot of posturing going on with both sides. All I can say is that Manning took an oath and he betrayed his country. He wasn't a whistleblower or a patriot. Manning is a different story than Snowden. Snowdens case is convoluted. Mannings is not.

How can you say that, don't you understand the principle of being innocent until proven guilty?

Seems to me you pick and choose the freedoms you think are ok and who they should and should not be applied to.

Maybe you should go and work for Obama, he's that kind of guy.

"Detain without trial" - "Yes we can"
"Murder people in foreign nations" - "Yes we can"
"Prosecute whistleblowers" - "Yes we can"

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
You keep saying China and Russia are worse than the USA, how so? This sounds like a case of you being blinded by patriotism.

Blinded by patriotism. Oh please ...

China and Russia are much worse. China forces abortions on families. Both have big deep dark endless prisons that they throw people in without trial. Neither country has true freedom of the press. Both have massive spying programs on their people and the governments can arrest the people without charges and without giving them trials.

The USA is better than that. THat's not being 'blinded by patriotism'. It's just the truth.

America does the exact same things. You just don't hear about it from the media.
There are folks being rounded up all over the place in the states who are nothing more than political dissidents. A family member survivalist of mine, for one.

reply to post by Wisescarab


43% of Americans want Snowden Charged
Only 43% think Snowden should be charged with something.
And his support is from both Democrats and Republicans.
Snowden should have just told about the NSA Spying on US Citizens.
And he should have stayed and fought.
That's what he would have done if he was a patriot who loves liberty (as he claims).
Instead, he told China and Russia state secrets and ran to live over there.
So he obviously doesn't have America's best interests at heart. He's no hero.

Originally posted by Wisescarab
America does the exact same things. You just don't hear about it from the media.

America forces abortions? Really? America will throw a band in prison for two years
for writing a protest song against Obama? Really? America systematically throws
large numbers of people in prison for years without charging them and without trial? Really?
You'll have to prove that.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Wisescarab
America does the exact same things. You just don't hear about it from the media.

America forces abortions? Really? America will throw a band in prison for two years
for writing a protest song against Obama? Really? America systematically throws
large numbers of people in prison for years without charging them and without trial? Really?
You'll have to prove that.

Yes, and no I don't have to do your work for you. Its out there if you want, but I am sure you won't bother because you have to go watch Foxnews.

Originally posted by citizenx1
How can you say that, don't you understand the principle of being innocent until proven guilty?

Manning took an oath. He admits he broke that oath. He admits leaking classified information
to Wikileaks that aided enemies of this country. What part of HE ADMITTED GUILT don't you get?

Seems to me you pick and choose the freedoms you think are ok and who they should and should not be applied to.

Seems to me you just hate America and refuse to look at the facts.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Oh my god you contradict yourself so much.

You were spouting in previous posts about other countries spying governments, lack of 'free press' and fair trials when in reality America seems to be failing on all these issues.

It also appears that you accuse anyone who doesnt share your view to be 'anti USA'. ( typical ignorance )

When have I ever said that China and Russia have more freedoms than the USA I asked you to tell me how they were worse? To be honest they all seem equally as bad to me for different reasons. You are the one who needs educating on the outside world.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Wisescarab
America does the exact same things. You just don't hear about it from the media.

America forces abortions? Really? America will throw a band in prison for two years
for writing a protest song against Obama? Really? America systematically throws
large numbers of people in prison for years without charging them and without trial? Really?
You'll have to prove that.

This is the same bastion of freedom which is trying to execute a man with learning disabilities?

You just won't have it - the US is worse than the other countries you slate because it does the same things and tries to pretend it is in favour of individual freedoms.

The constitution isn't worth the paper its written on.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by citizenx1
How can you say that, don't you understand the principle of being innocent until proven guilty?

Manning took an oath. He admits he broke that oath. He admits leaking classified information
to Wikileaks that aided enemies of this country. What part of HE ADMITTED GUILT don't you get?

Seems to me you pick and choose the freedoms you think are ok and who they should and should not be applied to.

Seems to me you just hate America and refuse to look at the facts.

I hate the behaviour of the US government and that of my own, the UK in spying on its citizens.

You are trying to defend the indefensible and i take great exception to that.

reply to post by Wisescarab

Since you are new here ... lemme' explain something to you. YOU made the statement that the USA does the same things (forces abortions; throws big numbers of Americans in jail for years without charging them or without trial; puts people in jail for years for singing anti-Obama songs). It's up to YOU to prove your statement is correct. Otherwise .. it's just you spouting nonsense.

As for your FOX news rhetoric .... straw man absurdum.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Of course they do. China has a Government-Run and even Censored Search Engine. And the Russians have always been experts at snooping, long before the Internet.

I have no doubt that both have considerable abilities when it comes to international snooping and spying etc, that goes with being a superpower.

But there is a difference between gathering intel for international security and dominance, and spying on millions of innocent people.

I can even understand that both have certain abusive branches with a remit to watch and disrupt political opponents and "dissidents" in their own countries. But again, this is not the same as a government colluding with corporate interests to gather up masses of data on millions of innocent people.

Their priorities are different, they do not spend a fraction of what the UK and US spends on the same toys. And even if they do have some capability to tap into global communications to spy on millions of people, there is no evidence that they actually have.

This is one of the fundamental issues that numerous members of ATS have consistently ignored, it's one thing to suspect it, it's a totally different thing to have proof that it is happening.

I can suspect that China and Russia might have similar capabilities, but it wouldn't be half as considerable simply because of the corporate involvement in the US and UK, the banking hubs we operate, the military power we have and the access to infrastructure and systems developed by the US and used all over the world - Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, etc,

The reason we can state that the US and UK are leaders in this, and that no other country can possibly compete, is because of the systems and companies involved. These corporations are GLOBAL leaders, based in America. That gives the USA an immediate advantage, and it's exactly why a Russian member of government recently made a public statement telling his government that they need to provide their public with Russian alternatives to those American companies - this is another aspect of protectionism and national security that we will be seeing more of in the coming years.

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
You were spouting in previous posts about other countries spying governments, lack of 'free press' and fair trials when in reality America seems to be failing on all these issues.

Again ... prove that America is worse on these issues. Prove it. Otherwise it's just (typical ignorance) anti-America rhetoric being spewed.

It also appears that you accuse anyone who doesnt share your view to be 'anti USA'. ( typical ignorance )

It's very simple. You people get on here and spout that the USA is just as bad as China and Russia, but then you all fail to prove that. Therefore, it is evident that those posting that America is just as bad as China and Russia are just spewing typical anti-American rhetoric (typical ignorance). Otherwise, you people would have posted FACTS instead of using straw man absurdum.

right back atchya

Originally posted by citizenx1
You just won't have it - the US is worse than the other countries you slate because it does the same things and tries to pretend it is in favour of individual freedoms..

Again .. prove it. You say this over and over ... and yet provide no proof that the USA is worse than China and Russia. I have given proof that the USA isn't nearly as bad as China and Russia. You have not been able to counter that. Epic fail on your part.

Originally posted by citizenx1
You are trying to defend the indefensible and i take great exception to that.

That's a lie. I have never defended the USA spying on it's citizens. I have said very clearly that I am glad that we all now know the extent of the NSA spying on American citizens.

I have very clearly said that the USA isn't as bad as China and Russia. And I have given proof.
You have failed to give proof that the USA is as bad as China and Russia. You have failed to
show why Snowden would find the freedoms he supposedly is fighting for in China and Russia.

reply to post by FlyersFan


The oath he took is superseded by his his duty as a human being to do the right thing. "Superior Orders" is not a valid defense, so regardless of any oath, if a crime has been committed, it is their duty to expose it..

As for Snowden. The right to privacy is a basic human right. Violation of ones privacy is a violation of one's human rights. If you violate enough individuals human rights, you are committing a crime against humanity. Snowden also had a duty to expose this.