Snowden en route from H.K. to Moscow: report

Dropping altitude now at 6000 ft!!!

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Too bad there will likely be no boycott of Google, Microsoft and Facebook and a deeper examination of the NSA.

It's already underway.
Trust me when I say that the many millions of webmasters around the world are gradually boycotting Google for their practices before this, now many millions more are moving away from Google as a Search Engine and choosing smaller competitors.

There have been several articles in the webmaster world in the last week explaining how Google is now a threat to corporate businesses all over the world, and with many businesses and individuals using Google for business, they will be increasingly moving away.

Google IS in panic mode, trying to think of ways to stop the hemorrhaging of their customer base. They are releasing information to try to persuade people to keep using them. It isn't working.

I can tell you that Google organic traffic is down across the board. Yahoo is marginally up, so is Bing, AOL is almost out of the game. I don't know about Facebook, but I can tell you that Google is suffering right now.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
And too bad the Chinese and now the Russians, who practice the same kind of surveillance, are likely milking Snowden for inside information.

Well, suspicion is one thing, proof is another.
I don't believe for a second that Russia or China has anything like the extensive snooping of the USA and UK in operation. If they did, don't you think your government would have made this clear by now in an attempt to make them look less like the bad guys? They've tried everything else, pretending its in our best interests, tried to discredit Snowden and paint him as a "traitor", and suggested that China has been guilty of cyber attacks on US businesses (that I can believe). So if either nation is hoovering up data like our countries are, don't you think this would be one of the first things our governments would try to use as a defense?

Can anyone point to the Chinese or Russian equivalent of the Utah NSA complex being finished right now? No? Thought not.

Originally posted by Rocker2013
It's already underway.

Thats good news. Google and Facebook need to be given stern lessons in protecting our Privacy.

I don't believe for a second that Russia or China has anything like the extensive snooping of the USA and UK in operation.

Of course they do. China has a Government-Run and even Censored Search Engine. And the Russians have always been experts at snooping, long before the Internet.

Originally posted by pez1975
I really feel torn about Snowden, No I don't think he should be arrested for telling the truth about the spying on Americans as that is illegal for the government to do and needs to be looked into and stopped imo, But then he goes to China and tells them The US is spying on you and this is how when what where and why. And God knows what else hes told China. Which I feel is a traitorous act and deserves arrest.

edit on 23-6-2013 by pez1975 because: (no reason given)

His choices were limited as far as finding sanctuary. Other so-called 'democracies' would have handed him back over to the US without a second thought. Hong Kong was a sort of middle place where he could find escape while at the same time, not forced to survive some hellhole like N. Korea or a theocracy like Iran.

If Obama hadn't pushed for his extradition, he would have likely stayed on in Hong Kong, as well. But with the US Bureau of Waterboards and Renditions closing in... he had to skip to Russia or someplace outside of their direct reach.

In sum, our government chased Snowden into the hole and now blame him for going there.

Originally posted by Swills
Well good news for Mr. Snowden! He's on his way to freedom from the US if everything goes as planned.

Swills ... China, Russia, all of them ... they all spy on their citizens. China and Russia are even worse than the USA. People over there disappear into big dark black holes (their versions of prison). So Snowden isn't going to 'freedom'. He has jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire.


- I'm glad we know about the NSA/Obama Admin spying on us all.

- Snowden isn't the hero that people are making him out to be. If he were a true patriot, he wouldn't be running to countries that have even worse human rights/privacy records than the USA. If he were a patriot, he'd be here fighting for REAL government transparency and privacy (not the Obama B.S. rhetoric version) ... but instead he's associating himself with governments that are even worse than the Obama administration.

- Snowden has A LOT of support here in the USA. He could have stayed and fought here with a heck of a lot of support from the people. He didn't. Some say he had to in order to save his life. I say that's bunk.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Where else was Snowden supposed to go?

He would end up locked up like Bradley Manning if he stayed in the US, Manning's US support means diddleysquat to him.

Skyfloating's post was dead on ....

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Too bad there will likely be no boycott of Google, Microsoft and Facebook and a deeper examination of the NSA.

A deeper examination of the NSA ... of Bush43's involvement .. of "Mr. Transparency" - Obama's involvement. Etc etc

And too bad the Chinese and now the Russians, who practice the same kind of surveillance, are likely milking Snowden for inside information.

Seriously true! China and Russia are even worse than the USA when it comes to this kind of thing. And Snowden is a bonanza for those regimes. He'll make life worse for the common people in those countries by what he can reveal.

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
Where else was Snowden supposed to go?

Stay and fight. He made the choice to tell what what happening with the NSA in regards to American citizens. If he had revealed that and did the patriot thing ... he would have the American people behind him. However, he chose to go to China and then Russia, who are worse, and he chose to tell those governments secrets about the American government. This makes Snowden a traitor ... not a hero.

If he had stuck with telling the American people about NSA ... he would have done okay with protection as a whistlelblower because a HUGE number of Americans on both the right and left are behind him.

But he went further ... and so he has shown that he's not a patriot but instead is something else (yet to be named).

He would end up locked up like Bradley Manning if he stayed in the US, Manning's US support means diddleysquat

Manning is a completely different story. Manning was not a hero.
Manning harmed his country. He didn't help it.
Snowden and Manning aren't even in the same category.

reply to post by FlyersFan


You keep saying China and Russia are worse than the USA, how so? This sounds like a case of you being blinded by patriotism.

Manning is more of a hero in my eyes and has been severely let down by the american government/people.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Seriously true! China and Russia are even worse than the USA when it comes to this kind of thing. And Snowden is a bonanza for those regimes. He'll make life worse for the common people in those countries by what he can reveal.

Personally, I'm not convinced that Snowden is a treasure trove of secrets as much as he is a PR coup.

In the end, whoever takes him in will be seen in a largely positive light, especially if he (Snowden) is readily accessible by the media. I doubt the stories of his going to Venezuela and Cuba, etc. On the flip, if Iceland accepts him, it's just a quick hop from Russia.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Rocker2013
It's already underway.

Thats good news. Google and Facebook need to be given stern lessons in protecting our Privacy.

I don't believe for a second that Russia or China has anything like the extensive snooping of the USA and UK in operation.

Of course they do. China has a Government-Run and even Censored Search Engine. And the Russians have always been experts at snooping, long before the Internet.

edit on 23-6-2013 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

They don't pretend to be the land of freedom and democracy in the same way the UK and US do.

You're comparing apples and cars.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Swills
Well good news for Mr. Snowden! He's on his way to freedom from the US if everything goes as planned.

Swills ... China, Russia, all of them ... they all spy on their citizens. China and Russia are even worse than the USA. People over there disappear into big dark black holes (their versions of prison). So Snowden isn't going to 'freedom'. He has jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire.


- I'm glad we know about the NSA/Obama Admin spying on us all.

- Snowden isn't the hero that people are making him out to be. If he were a true patriot, he wouldn't be running to countries that have even worse human rights/privacy records than the USA. If he were a patriot, he'd be here fighting for REAL government transparency and privacy (not the Obama B.S. rhetoric version) ... but instead he's associating himself with governments that are even worse than the Obama administration.

- Snowden has A LOT of support here in the USA. He could have stayed and fought here with a heck of a lot of support from the people. He didn't. Some say he had to in order to save his life. I say that's bunk.

Get real. The world knows what the good old US of A did to Bradley Manning.

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
You keep saying China and Russia are worse than the USA, how so? This sounds like a case of you being blinded by patriotism.

Blinded by patriotism. Oh please ...

China and Russia are much worse. China forces abortions on families. Both have big deep dark endless prisons that they throw people in without trial. Neither country has true freedom of the press. Both have massive spying programs on their people and the governments can arrest the people without charges and without giving them trials.

The USA is better than that. THat's not being 'blinded by patriotism'. It's just the truth.

Originally posted by citizenx1
They don't pretend to be the land of freedom and democracy in the same way the UK and US do.
You're comparing apples and cars.

No. I"m comparing freedoms and laws to freedoms and laws.
The USA is still a better place to live than China and Russia when it comes to freedoms.
It's just that simple.
Snowden is jumping from the USA to places that are much worse.
He claims to be a freedom fighter of sorts. But the facts say something else.
If he really loved freedom and was a patriot, he wouldn't be cuddling the Chinese or Russians.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by citizenx1
They don't pretend to be the land of freedom and democracy in the same way the UK and US do.
You're comparing apples and cars.

No. I"m comparing freedoms and laws to freedoms and laws.
The USA is still a better place to live than China and Russia when it comes to freedoms.
It's just that simple.
Snowden is jumping from the USA to places that are much worse.
He claims to be a freedom fighter of sorts. But the facts say something else.
If he really loved freedom and was a patriot, he wouldn't be cuddling the Chinese or Russians.

So this is what "Brainwashed" by big brother looks like. Thank you.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by citizenx1
They don't pretend to be the land of freedom and democracy in the same way the UK and US do.
You're comparing apples and cars.

No. I"m comparing freedoms and laws to freedoms and laws.
The USA is still a better place to live than China and Russia when it comes to freedoms.
It's just that simple.
Snowden is jumping from the USA to places that are much worse.
He claims to be a freedom fighter of sorts. But the facts say something else.
If he really loved freedom and was a patriot, he wouldn't be cuddling the Chinese or Russians.

You're comparing the illusion of freedom to the reality of authoritarianism.

There is only one difference - China doesn't pretend to be anything else. That said, It is moving in a positive direction whilst the US and UK are not.

The world can see this even if you can't.

Originally posted by citizenx1
Get real. The world knows what the good old US of A did to Bradley Manning.

Get real. What happened to Manning was Mannings own fault. He was no hero.
He was not whistleblower. He was a guy who broke his oath and damaged his country.
Nothing more.

Snowden is an entirely different matter. His case is convoluted.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
You keep saying China and Russia are worse than the USA, how so? This sounds like a case of you being blinded by patriotism.

Blinded by patriotism. Oh please ...

China and Russia are much worse. China forces abortions on families. Both have big deep dark endless prisons that they throw people in without trial. Neither country has true freedom of the press. Both have massive spying programs on their people and the governments can arrest the people without charges and without giving them trials.

The USA is better than that. THat's not being 'blinded by patriotism'. It's just the truth.

umm yeah because the USA gives everyone at Guantanamo Bay a trial.

Massive spying programs, really? yeah no way would the american government ever spy on its people lol!!!!



Yep, blinded by patriotism.

Originally posted by citizenx1
You're comparing the illusion of freedom to the reality of authoritarianism.

No. Like I said. Comparing facts and laws and reality. America is a much more free society than China or Russia. When America starts forcing families to have abortions ... when Americans disappear into prisons and are held for years without being charged and have no trial .... THEN you can yak at me that the USA is on the same level as them. Until then ... to say that the USA is on the same level as they are is hogwash.

The world can see this even if you can't.

Take off your anti-USA goggles and look at the facts.
Oh .. and you claiming to speak for the world ....

reply to post by FlyersFan

What happened to Manning was Mannings own fault. He was no hero. He was not whistleblower. He was a guy who broke his oath and damaged his country. Nothing more.

I can agree with that to a degree... soldiers don't have the field to play like civilians. You take an oath and wear the uniform; you have given yourself to your chain of command and especially in a combat scenario, sworn not to do the likes of what Manning did.

That said however, I cannot condone the way he has been treated during his incarceration and must recognize this is one reason why Snowden wouldn't trust the system to a fair shake coming home to stand his ground. He would be out of sight and out of reach for everyone except the dungeon keepers.