Bible style books of that era?

reply to post by Deetermined

Give me a break. For every "failed" prophecy these sites list, I could say it did not fail.

Of course you can say whatever you want. But just because you say it doesn't make it true. The Bible prophecies that the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar would destroy both Egypt and Tyre. When we look at the history of Babylonia, Egypt, and the Levant we find:

Nebuchadnezzar attempted for 13 years to destroy Tyre, then failed, and left.

Nebuchadnezzar attempted one time to conquer Egypt, then failed, and left.

Both prophecies fail. You can say whatever you want, but you're wrong. Your Bible is wrong. Your God is wrong.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Deetermined

For starters, the Bible already tells us that these are all the same God and the different names represent his attributes and nature. It's not like there were relational differences.
When the Sumerian gods changed over to Babylonian gods, their roles and relationships changed.

This is my favorite of your replies, because you are completely wrong on all accounts. Let me use a single Sumerian goddess to show you:

Inanna (3500 BC - 1750 BC): Sumerian-Akkadian. Queen of Heaven. Inanna was the personification of the Morning/Evening star (Venus), and thus considered the Queen of Heaven, whose appearance signaled the approach/departure of the Sun. As the embodiment of femininity, Inanna was responsible for carnal love, including fornication, fertility, and material attraction, which gave rise to the Cult of the Prostitute. As well, she was also responsible for celestial love, the kind shared between man and his family (duty), family and their city (community), and a city and the entire culture (nationality). The final major mythological significance of Inanna comes from her involvement in the seasonal resurrection myth, involving her husband, the Dying-and-Rising god, Dumuzi, which has been echoed in every culture on Earth. Because of her connection to the seasonal cycle, Inanna was also the patron of sacred sites and holy buildings.

Ištar (2500 BC - 200 AD): Assyrian-Babylonian. Star of Heaven. Ištar is the Assyrian-Babylonian counterpart of Inanna. Possessing all of the same qualities as Inanna, but with a heavier focus on the warrior aspects, the carnal and material love, and the fertility elements. This being because the Babylonians were a warrior-culture with a love for material wealth. Ištar, like Inanna, shares the exact same seasonal cycle myth, with Tammuz, the Babylonian counterpart to Dumuzi.

Qadeš (2000 BC - 200 BC): Ugaritic and Egyptian. Holy. Qadeš arose as a goddess in Canaan, carrying the benign qualities of Inanna to the semitic Canaanites and Phoenicians. Qadeš is a goddess of ecstasy and celestial love. She blesses ritual grounds, and is responsible for the care and upkeep of sacred spaces. She also endows man and the Earth with fertility and prosperity. When the Egyptians and Canaanites met, the Egyptians brought Qadeš, Astarte, Anat, and Ba'al back to Egypt with them.

Astarte (1500 BC - 200 BC): Ugaritic. Star / Womb. Astarte, arriving a few hundred years after Qadeš, was the Queen of Heaven, and founder of the art of sacred prostitution among both the Canaanites/Phoenicians, and the Egyptians. She also served as the Queen of Heaven, and was one of the Pharoah's protectors in battle and war (displaying warrior qualities). Together, Astarte and Qadeš represent the benign and aggressive sides of Inanna/Ištar: the "Holy Star". This was recognized, as both goddesses collectively went to the same cultures.

Šauška (1450 BC - 1200 BC): Anatolian. The Hurrian Ištar. As her name suggests, Šauška was the Hurrian variation of Ištar. However, like with Quadeš, Šauška tended to embody the healing, restorative, and blessing aspects of Ištar over her warrior and prostitution elements, which were absorbed by other Hittite/Hurrian figures.

Aštoreth (1200 BC - 200 BC): Palestinian. Star. The exact same goddess as Astarte, only worshiped by the Palestinians and Philistines, instead of the Phoenicians and Canaanites. There is no functional variation between the two, despite one rising to prominence in a different culture three hundred years later. This is the same variation of Inanna which was demonized by Jewish scribes.

Those are just the six most common variants of Inanna. I'm familiar with a further four, but am running out of characters in this reply. All of them, regardless of the name-change, draw from the same pool of qualities:

- Queen of Heaven
- Keeper of sacred places
- Personification of the Morning/Evening Star (Venus)
- Goddess of Celestial Love
- Goddess of Carnal Love / Fertility
- Goddess of War and Sovereignty

Inanna, in all her myriad variations, is entirely consistent, despite the name changes. Even her later forms (Aphrodite, Freyja, Iðuna, etc) all share the same personality traits, functions, associations, and even many of the same cultural myths (like the seasonal resurrection myth of Inanna/Dumuzi, echoed by Osiris/Isis, Ba'al/Anat, Kamrusepa/Telepinus, Demeter/Persephone, Kybele/Attis, Aphrodite/Adonis, and Iðuna/Bragi.

As for relational differences, let me point this out:

Inanna is the daughter of the Moon (Nanna) and the Great Lady (Ningal) in Sumer. In Babylon she is still the daughter of the Moon (Sin) and the Great Lady (Ningal). So no, her relational associations also don't change.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Deetermined

That's because their gods already know that they don't stand a chance up against the Most High.

God created the Heavens and the Earth in 6 days. Marduk did it in one night.

God flooded the Earth and killed all but a single ark. Enlil and Enki did the same thing more than 3000 years before YHVH.

Jesus died, was dead for three days, and then resurrected. So did Dumuzi, Tammuz, Osiris, Ba'al, Tarhunt, Tešub, Attis, Persephone (she was dead for six whole months!), Adonis (he was dead for three whole months!), Iðuna, and Oðin (who was dead for nine days).

God created man from breath and clay. So did Ptah, and Khnum, and Enki with Ninḫursag, and Marduk, and Zeus, and Odin used leaves and wood and spirit and breath and blood to do the same thing.

If you want to pull out schlongs and compare sizes to see who's the Best and Greatest, I'm pretty sure the pagans have your god beat there too with Min and Priapus. (Warning, those links are not child-friendly).

Anyway you slice it, the pagan gods have YHVH matched, and then some. Their followers choose silence and personal spiritual faith not because of fear, but because they're secure in their beliefs, and don't need the whole world's approval to feel special.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Deetermined

LOL! No, because the ancient deities were too busy trying to kill each other for power to bother with the little people!

Enki and Ninḫursag worked together to create man. Then they helped man establish laws and governing bodies. Thus were the first populations and civilizations established.

Enlil and Ninurta worked together to secure the fates of men, and to make sure their lands were protected from dangerous invading beasts and predators. Which is why Ninurta slew Asag, and the Anzu bird on orders from Enlil, when the beasts threatened the people of Sumer.

Inanna and Ninšubur worked with Lulal, Šara, and Enki to bring back Dumuzi (and the crops for human beings).

Ninurta, with the aid of škur, tempered the seasonal storms, allowing for the rains to rejuvenate the crops and secure a bounty for the Sumerians every harvest season.

Perhaps sticking within a single culture doesn't do it for you though. OK.

How about that time when Enki (as A'a, the Hittite variation of Ea, his Babylonian counterpart) lent the Saw of Heaven (a weapon possessed by the Sumerian Utu) to Tešub, the Hurrian weather-god, who used it to slay Ullikummi, the giant rock-monster?

Or, you have the time when the sea-god Yamm (from Phoenicia) threatened the people of Egypt, who asked Sutekh (a Hittite desert-god) to join Anat (the Canaanite Queen of Heaven) so that both of them could stop the invading threat?

There's also the time when the Olympian Zeus was asked by the neolithic mother-goddess Kybele of Çatalhöyük to help resurrect the youthful god of Phrygia, Attis.

Perhaps you missed the time when the Druids of the mainland Celts began worshiping the three-in-one of Taranis, Teutates, and Esus who all have remarkably similar functions to the three-in-one of Oðin, Vili, and Vé from the Northlands?

Pagan gods get along quite well with each other. If you actually knew anything about paganism or its diverse benefactors, you would know that. But you don't, so you don't.

Oh well. Not a big loss, I suppose.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


You didn't even open the links. That figures.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


The stories regarding Enki and Enlil did not remain the same.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

If you want to pull out schlongs and compare sizes to see who's the Best and Greatest, I'm pretty sure the pagans have your god beat there too with Min and upload.wikimedia.org.... (Warning, those links are not child-friendly).

Spoken like a true pagan!

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

Anyway you slice it, the pagan gods have YHVH matched, and then some. Their followers choose silence and personal spiritual faith not because of fear, but because they're secure in their beliefs, and don't need the whole world's approval to feel special.

We'll soon find out who the true frauds were.

reply to post by jiggerj

The Christian Bible was the first major collection of different writings to appear after the Romans began developing the CODEX- the modern book format- to replace the scroll as a medium of publication.
So the CODEX wasn't exactly invented for the purpose of holding the Bible together, but the Christianswere probably the first group who really needed the format.

reply to post by Deetermined

You didn't even open the links. That figures.

I did actually. But, the historical record confirms that both prophecies failed.

The first link discusses the remnants of ancient Tyre. Wonderful. The Bible says Nebuchadnezzar would be responsible, but he wasn't. Therefore the prophecy fails.

Second, the quote clearly states Egypt will be a desolate wasteland. Egypt has never been desolate, or a wasteland. All the way from 6000 BC, until now, Egypt has flourished and been a cultural center of the world. Further, Nebuchadnezzar was also supposed to be the one to destroy Egypt, which he never did.

The stories regarding Enki and Enlil did not remain the same.

The basics of the Sumerian and Babylonian version is thus:

Enki makes human beings.
Human beings are eternal creatures, making sustaining them impossible.
Enlil decides to destroy them because of this.
Enki talks with Utnapishtam and warms him.

It only changes in really poor interpretations of the Babylonian epic Enuma Elish, which centers on Marduk, and not Enlil/Enki. And yes, names do change: Enki becomes Ea; Enlil stays as Enlil, and Utnapishtam becomes Ziusudra. Otherwise, the story is consistent when Enlil and Enki are involved.

Spoken like a true pagan!

There's a very definite phallic element to Christianity. Don't try to deny it

We'll soon find out who the true frauds were.

Jesus was supposed to return during the lifetime of the Apostles.

2000 years later, he's still absent.

The pagan gods have come back though.

Guess we will see soon who were the frauds.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

I did actually. But, the historical record confirms that both prophecies failed.

First you have to read the whole chapter pertaining to the event for the details. Cherry picking a single verse can make it say anything you want it to say.

The prophecy did not fail.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

Jesus was supposed to return during the lifetime of the Apostles.

Jesus never told them that. Jesus told them that they would not know when it would happen, they just assumed it was going to happen during their time.

reply to post by Deetermined


Jesus is a false prophet and Yahweh is a false god. The prophecies were wrong. It's that simple.

“Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.” (Matthew 24:34 TEV)

“For the Son of Man [i.e. Jesus] is about to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will reward each one according to his deeds. I assure you [i.e. swear to you] that there are some here who will not die until they have seen the Son of Man [Jesus] come as King.” (Matthew 16: 27, 28 TEV)

"Behold! I tell you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP [i.e. die], BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED... in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet... the dead will be raised..." (1Corinthians 15:51,52 NASB)


"...we WHO ARE ALIVE and REMAIN until the coming of the Lord... Then we who ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds..." (1Thessalonians 4:15-17)


Jesus Did Not Return

reply to post by arpgme


Thank you, Arpgme.

I stepped out to go have my dinner, came back, and was going to reply with pretty much exactly what you did.

I don't need to anymore.

Star for you.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by arpgme

“Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.” (Matthew 24:34 TEV)

I love how you picked a translation that totally changed the context of it's meaning.

You missed this verse..

Matthew 24:21

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Now let's take the verse you picked and put it in it's proper context...

Matthew 24:33-34

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Go back and read the whole chapter. The GENERATION that sees all of those signs, the tribulations that will be worse than any other known on earth, they will be the ones to see Jesus' return.

More detail about these signs are given in the book of Revelation.

Read ALL of Matthew 24 for more detail on the remaining signs.

reply to post by arpgme


What you have to know is that Jesus' messages were twofold. They would tell of things in the immediate future and in the distant future at the same time.

What Jesus told them was about the destruction of the 2nd temple as well as a further future event. That's why we have the book of Revelation that tells all of the other future events.

History will repeat itself. We will see once again someone stand in a temple. Only this time, this person will declare themselves as God before the worst tribulations the world has ever seen will take place.

As far as other prophecy, they are always fulfilled, but never in the exact way the Jews think it's going to until they acknowledge God. Just like the coming of Jesus in the first place. They had all the requirements for their Messiah already laid out when Jesus came, but they rejected him once he got here, so he did not fulfill the promises God made to them.

In the future, Jesus will fulfill his promises to the Jews in what will be called the Millennial Kingdom.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


As for the destruction of Tyre, there was more than one prophecy made about it.

Ezekiel 26:3

3 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

So, ultimately Nebuchadnezzer and Alexander the Great completed the prophecy.

As for the destruction of Egypt prophecy, I consider this to be another twofold prophecy. Though indeed some of the details were fulfilled, such as...

Ezekiel 29:12

12 And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.

Now, the Egyptians were scattered throughout the nations for a period of forty years, however, we do not see Egypt "desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate".

Here's when the Middle East countries will all experience desolation...

Zechariah 12:3

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Isaiah 13:9

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isaiah 24:6

6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

There are many, many more that point to the tribulations coming that will start to unfold as we see everyone vying for control over Jerusalem. After these great tribulations are over and most of the earth is desolate, Jesus will return to set up his Millennial Kingdom with Jerusalem at the seat of it. There are many, many details about the Millennial Kingdom given throughout the entire Old Testament and a little in Revelation, that have yet to come.

Luke 24:44

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Jesus is still fulfilling prophecy in the form of the Holy Spirit until he makes himself seen again at his second coming.

reply to post by Deetermined

Originally posted by Deetermined
History will repeat itself. We will see once again someone stand in a temple. Only this time, this person will declare themselves as God before the worst tribulations the world has ever seen will take place.

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course, Christians would want this to happen if it means the return of Jesus.

Did you hear about The Christians who are praying for World War 3 (Destruction) for the return of Jesus by the way [LINK]?

Originally posted by Deetermined
They had all the requirements for their Messiah already laid out when Jesus came, but they rejected him once he got here, so he did not fulfill the promises God made to them.

In the future, Jesus will fulfill his promises to the Jews in what will be called the Millennial Kingdom.

Where in The Old Testament does it talk about The Messiah being God himself dying , coming back to life, and having to wait over two thousand years in order to return to finish prophecies?

Nor does it predict The Messiah dying and coming back to life.

By the way, The Old Testament said The Messiah's name will be "Immanuel" which Jesus was never called by the way.

I am not a Jew either, just pointing out the inconsistencies.

reply to post by arpgme

Where in The Old Testament does it talk about The Messiah being God himself dying , coming back to life, and having to wait over two thousand years in order to return to finish prophecies?

Nor does it predict The Messiah dying and coming back to life.

By the way, The Old Testament said The Messiah's name will be "Immanuel" which Jesus was never called by the way.

I am not a Jew either, just pointing out the inconsistencies.

Why do you keep doing this to yourself? You've read all of these scriptures before.

Read all of the books of the prophets in the Old Testament. Start with Psalm 22.

"Immanuel" means "God with us".

Did you really think that God was going to give them Jesus' name before he came to declare who he was?

Why do you think the entire New Testament is written the way it is?

Those who recognized him, recognized him by the Holy Spirit. Not everyone was supposed to recognize him immediately for obvious reasons and purposes, provided you even know what's written in scripture to begin with.

TextDuring the time of the bible being put together as a book (a compilation, I believe), was there a style or trend in making books this way? Does anyone know of any other books from that specific book-making time?

reply to post by jiggerj


@ jiggerj

I am no expert on this subject and I have not Google'd it yet but I learned how to make Japanese and Chinese books some years ago. Back then I was taught that the oriental people were binding literature long before other people. We used plain old hoof glue and a paper awl along with roped hemp as the binding thread. In fact my library has about fifteen of my self made books. Probably won't last as long as European books but it was a novelty for me.

I think the modern acid free papers and waxed threads of today will last longer. I am not a book binder by any means but do know the basics of how books are bound. Some of the old printers I worked with were really artists in book binding. My specialty was printing ink and duplicate plate making. All of that is a lost art now with the computer age.