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Fast track to fascism under Bush!

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posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 09:53 PM
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Another country these points do not led themselves to is the UK. But I’m pretty confident General Bush of The Republican Militia will soon have his Lieutenant Comrade Blair Tilting those percentages soon enough. The USA invades sovereign nations with the will to introduce (read enforce) democracy, but declines to offer this gift of freedom to its own peoples. I am astonished by the amount of news articles I discuss with an American friend that I read in the British press about US politics that he has not seen in his own media. Censorship is the great wall to blind the people from the corruption of the government of the unwilling. A very poignant Marxist device used daily by the current administration in America (and others, including Democrats too). Another great device of Fascist Nations in history has always been the introduction of enforced military service. So I guess America cannot be a Fascist state after all, I mean it doesn’t have the draft does it???????????????


[edit on 9-11-2004 by The Teller]




posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
There are no interesting points here. We are at war......We were attacked. I am angry we are not turning the middle east into glass. Bush is TOO kind and Liberal.


Hmmm, disdain for intellectualism, rallying behind a unified scapegoat, obsession with security, and rabid militiarism all ring a bell here....



posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 10:20 PM
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Point by point, its eerily similar to our country today.
I've been saying this all along...
We're screwed.

Thank you Art Bell, for thou hath showeth me the way......

I'm in the know, and some people cant stand it



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 01:30 AM
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Franki's own arguments, while showing some seeming similarities fails overall to meet many of these 14 points, and fails to measure up to the hype when you look deeper.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
While expressions of nationalism are on the rise, the government isnt pumping out propaganda films and neither is hollywood....Look back to the rally posters and pro USA propaganda in use in WW2...we are no where that level of patriotic fever in our media or from the government.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
Indeed the Patriot Act does seemingly make it easier in certain situations to allow law enforcement more leeway. This is ONE situation, targeting SPECIFIC individules, not civil rights overall....where are the wide spread governmental abuses of its citizens civil rights?

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
Again, where is the government run propaganda machine? I think the USA gets a wide variety of views expressed thru ingesting many forms of media, and i dont hear the "songs of the motherland" channel from the feds. You confuse a TRUE enemy for one that the government made up for you. Sometimes the enemy IS standing right in front of you. You will have to do a lot of convincing to try and get me or the rest of the world to think that the islamist extreamists criminal underworld isnt a problem.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
You confuse the use of millitary force with avid millitaristic ideals.....If the USA is so millitaristic, where are the longlines of patriotic youth ready to sign up to join the greatest millitaryand crush the enemies of the motherland? Where are all the media shows showing our glorious armed forces always trouncing the enemy? Heck i dont even see USO advertisments trying to drum up support fot the troops....This is hardly a society bent on millitary exploits.

5. Rampant sexism.
American culture is male predominate not male dominate...in other words, while males still enjoy some of the boys club bennifits overall, there are more and more women bringing home the bacon, in positions of authority, and general societal sexual questions (gays, androdgony, porn industry is huge $$$,) to say this culture is one way when it comes to sexual uniformity. Many American men worship american women...ever hear of "yes dear"? Hardly women second class if you ask married men...


6. A controlled mass media.
As a 10 year veteran of a mass media career, i can tell you, there has NEVER been any government official dictating the news, acting as a censor, or otherwise telling the media companies what to do.
Our BROADCAST frequencies are regulated by the governmentfor use, but cable isnt. while restrictions for decency exist for broadcasters using public airwaves, cable can air whatever racey stuff the viewer wants to pay for.
Books are not being burned nor is music....the internet is alive and well with diversity....how can this mess of media options be under control?

7. Obsession with national security.
America just voted and spoke and said...we realize that national security is a priority for the nation...we are at war, and the enemy just struck us and still threatens us. Even if you didnt fote for bush, polls asking democratic voters indicated this concern was tops for many of them as well.
I trust you are implying that concern for national security,when at war and after 9-11, is not something citizens should be concerned with?

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.
Where do you see our government, giving official endorcment to a specific religious institution? You confuse a President, acting as a person of faith to guide him, with the government officially sanctioning and allying itself openly with a stated religion. There would have already been riots here should this actually have occured. ANY citizen is allowed the right to have a faith and say that it guides their actions...this is not the same as government taking actions to cloak itself with religious dogema.

9. Power of corporations protected.
The power of corporations are also limited and heavily regulated here in many respects. Dont foget the power of organized labor and the consumer voting with their wallets. corporations, while engrained in politics, are not the final say in government.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
Tell this to the AFL-CIO, and other big organized labor unions here in the USA. I dont have a link but believe that labor unions contributed as much as many corporations to political campaigns. Please show me recent examples of where the government has taken actions to eliminate organized labor.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
Universities are not being controled by the government (other than meeting funding requirments)...no government agents are going onto campuses and drumming out the "free thinkers". Tell this to M.Moore and the rest of the hollywood that they must serve the national interest with their approved works and see how far this flies. Where is art being silenced for the good of the country?

12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
More americans were murdered in the top five most violent cities here last year than all soldiers killed in Iraq, yet we dont see a rampant...must crack down on crimes mentality. American citizens are not paying nearly as much attention to crime as they are the war, nor are they being active pro or con in the same way as war efforts. (where are the anti crime protesters?, heck the anti war ones didnt last long) The zeal of the drug war is long since past its zenith. Even the Number of law and order shows on tv is down...LOL

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.
Blame voter apathy for not paying atention to elected officials and holding them accountable for their actions. As we've just seen record turnouts for elections, id think that politicians are going to have to be more careful, not less about these kinds of allegations as it seems many more citizens are paying attention to politics.

14. Fraudulent elections.
Despite the allegations that Bush stole the election, there was never any findings for this. Otherwise where are the charges, whos going on trial, where is the proof that our election process is controlled or rigged....better look to the record turnouts at the polls, the millions of extra wittnesses to this process including extra media scrutiny and international observations that this has/is occuring.

While a person could make very general linkages to these 14 points to draw a rough conclusion that the USA is a fascist state....once you start to dig a little and ask questions, it becomes apparent that many of these 14 points are no where close to occuring, nor will they anytime soon.



[edit on 9-11-2004 by CazMedia]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 08:00 AM
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can i just ask who is the US at war with?



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 08:41 AM
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can i just ask who is the US at war with?


Like all crusades, we're at war with an ideology, not a "who"...in this case, the ideology of terrorism....but the point is well taken.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
can i just ask who is the US at war with?


Ummm....anyone and everyone that harbors and aids anyone we deem to be a terrorist, and don't think we don't know about the one living down the street from your house.....the bombers are already launched.....

I'm sorry, but that's about how I interpret the whole thing.

Actually, well, if this is the direction they are intent on taking us, they have to get rid of the internet and forums like these. I've noticed that there's some media supression going on too....stories come out online from the media in other countries but just don't show up anywhere in the us for days if at all, until the news has filtered it's way to significant amount of the population anyways. It must be hard to keep people in the dark about an event when your allies (the BBC) have it on the front page of their site....



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by dawnstar


Ummm....anyone and everyone that harbors and aids anyone we deem to be a terrorist, and don't think we don't know about the one living down the street from your house.....the bombers are already launched.....


well then britain must be at war with america and its former colonies. yes no? they are terrorists?
terrorists are men or women who attack a government by non conventional means.
its a term used to describe OPFOR when not at war.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 08:28 PM
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On from devilwasp; OED entry of the definition for terrorism: a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
Don’t know who or what this could be applied to in today’s political atmosphere...mmm
Security: the state of being or feeling secure, (Does anyone now feel secure???) the safety of a state or organization against criminal activity such as terrorism. Do your country’s political activities and foreign policies make you feel secure….???
So, terrorism is the unlawful act of a group in apprehensible and underhand activities to displace the security of the opposition which has an unquestionable political power. The only means necessary to counter that uneven power is the act of terrorism. This could all apply to the ANC is South Africa who used means at their disposal to drive a power wedge between the oppressive Apartheid government and the oppressed Black Majority. It could be applied to the French Resistance in the Second World War trying to de-stable the occupying invaders of the Nazi party. Think of America's own terrorism in its short history from the Tea Party to the War of Independence, to the Apartheid like regime in the last few decades against the black citizens. Such vague terms that can be used in many a context to justify horror upon civilians by minority groups who’s only aim is murder, to oppressed people who have no other voice than the voice of combat, to countries invading sovereign states to overthrow the incumbent leadership by Any Means Necessary.
All life is sacred except the lives of those who stand in your way…that seems to be the message this world is setting down for its children.
Ghandi said, “An eye for an eye and soon the whole world will be blind”. Keep your eyes and ears, but most importantly your mind open.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by The Teller
All life is sacred except the lives of those who stand in your way…that seems to be the message this world is setting down for its children.
Ghandi said, “An eye for an eye and soon the whole world will be blind”. Keep your eyes and ears, but most importantly your mind open.


I stumbled on ATS while looking for some arcane tidbit of conspiracy info. I've stayed on board because I learn things here I can't anywhere else. One thing I respect is that most people back up their posts with research. One thing I most hate is the large amount of people who post mainly it seems to be divisive or bullying, without contributing to the knowledge base. I think knowledge really is power, and one has to stay open to learning, even if that doesn't always match up with expectations.


--Saerlaith



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
There are no interesting points here. We are at war......We were attacked. I am angry we are not turning the middle east into glass. Bush is TOO kind and Liberal.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA... this statement you have made is a sign of media brainwashing.


WE started this entire war with the middle east. In the beginning.. we had little problems with the middle east.. we left them alone.. they left us alone. Quit with that "we were the victim" crying crap. You know as well as I do that we have been fiddling around with the middle east like they were toys.. by secret special forces operations to potential overthrows and propaganda campaigns.

Do you expect those countries to just sit there and take it? No, an Islamic "Terrorist" under the name Osama Bin Laden said " I am sick of this" and then did what he did on 9-11.

These problems could easily have been avoided if we stopped screwing with foreign nations in the matter we have been.

It's like these crybabys that whine when US troops get killed in Iraq.. no kidding! You invade a foreign country be prepared for resistence.. your not going to get a red carpet and caviar when your army marches in.

The reality is.. we attacked first.. and they responded... So am I promoting them? Nope.. I do not promote the middle east nor American policies. But I see the realities, those who do not see these realities are too blinded by blatant nationalism.

Where is the common sense?

[edit on 9-11-2004 by RedOctober90]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
well then britain must be at war with america and its former colonies. yes no? they are terrorists?
terrorists are men or women who attack a government by non conventional means.
its a term used to describe OPFOR when not at war.

By this reasoning, Britain is also at war with France, Spain, Germany, Italy and every other country it has ever been at war with, since this reasoning conveniently excludes the consequences of the passage of time.



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 02:46 AM
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this is in response to CazMedia

it seems as though you neglect to look at the point of these characteristics, while attempting to create a hole in this article by stretching thins on these less similar ideals.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
i dont really see were at this time the gov really feels as though they need any propoganda. i mean, they already have a majority of followers who are unwilling to look into the facts and belive that this is a just cause. But ill humor your comment, and in doing so i would like to point out the hundreds of 'Go Army' commercials i have seen in the past years.

"we are no where that level of patriotic fever in our media or from the government..." hmm, what about all the people with a mad, burning passion to kill these muslims? how about no one even questioning bush on his actions? how about the "your either with us or your a terrorist" mentality, where if someone even questions lord bush about this unjust, 'holy war' they are met with such opposition by even your loved ones that you dare not do it again for fear of looking radical. Im sry but i dont want to keep the US the way it is, where i cant even question the policies of our leaders.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
you mention that the Patriot Act does target specific individuals, and not overal Civil Right. Please do me a favor, i know its a long read, but atleast read into the Patriot Act; Even if you only scan over it and catch points that strike your eye:USA PATRIOT Act (HR 3162) Now if your lazy, i have my days, then perhaps you 'google' a summery, or even search it here. Now while i will not outline it for you i will not some things that are mentioned in it: despite what your definition of a terrorist is, the gov's is basically anyone who underminds there vision of national security, but also can be blanketed to include any crime commited! In determining that a person or organization is conducting or aiding in any 'terrorist activity', the gov has the power to look into any document, history, personal belongings, conversations(in which they have tapped), and even genetics, among others. Now, i know that these are good and all when dealing with the definition commonly associated with terrorists, ;but I think that under abuse this 'Patriot Act' gives the gov, esp. the FBI, way to much power to conduct any survellince they deem necessary and the authority to arrest, w/o notification of anyone, anyone that they feel is a threat. Do you trust the government?

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
I honestly cant comprehiend how this has to be brought to your attention but, we have furiously labled Usama as the head of the 'demon' terrorists. Despite this our leader has neglect to capture this man, somehow narrily escaping many times even when surround by troops, and has decided that the best think to do instead is to get Saddam while we still attack iraq.

How can you say i need to convince half the world when such a large part of it already denounced it.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
and you confuse the assiociation of military sepremecy with an army and ofcorse totally neglect our airforce/navy.




Where are all the media shows showing our glorious armed forces always trouncing the enemy?

i think the ap does well enough on its own in showing our supremecy and in giving us impressions that they are lower or unworthy of our forced 'gift of freedom'




This is hardly a society bent on millitary exploits.

bahahaha, how can u.... wtf... a... fda... a... but d... fas...afefs... oae... ahh [ears start bleeding, goes into convolsion]













oh dont worry i cant wait to finish this up, but now its time for rest


[edit on 10-11-2004 by Franki]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 04:32 AM
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Franki,
you barely glossed over 3 of 14 points and end your post thumpnig your chest as if these meger generalizations can paint the USA into being a fascist state? please.

1.) advertisments for recruiting soldiers are hardly programs touting the motherland....we've had these ads for a long time. Its a volunteer force and they have to recruit somehow.

Franki asks,


what about all the people with a mad, burning passion to kill these muslims?
Ok, do these people constitute the majority, or part of it? Where are all their go America/kill iraq rallies? Where is the government making this official policy? (kill muslims)

Franki not paying attention says,


how about no one even questioning bush on his actions?
WHAT!!! How many threads with "questions" (bashing) Bush can you find on this site alone? How many liberal slanted anchors from CBS/ABC/NBC have done stories that ONLY question policy/actions have there been? Does the use of the term "quagmire" ring a bell only 4 months after the war started? There is NO way in hell you can say the government is silencing its opponents.....where are the media enforcment goons from the feds?

Franki asks,


if someone even questions lord bush about this unjust, 'holy war' they are met with such opposition by even your loved ones that you dare not do it again for fear of looking radical.
The only ones calling this a holy war are the jihadies....Hmm well perhaps your getting looks because what your saying really IS radical? Could this be at least a possibillity? Peoples opinions are split about 50/50 here and your almost as likley to find someone to agree with you that "lord Bush", as you paint him with devicive lingo, is indeed a bad guy. Opinions are not a fascist regiem cracking down on dissenters.

2.) Yes the patriot act has some provisions that might (if you are being investigated for pretty suspicious behaivior) allow them to take the "above normal" steps you mention, but this doesnt happen in a vaccume, judges still must approve these actions based upon the evidence presented by investigators. (yes these investigations are generally kept from the public)
Even tho these things can happen, and in certain specific cases occured, please show me how this is being used in a widespread civil rights violation against many citizens indiscriminatly? Aside from your fear that this COULD occur, what other human rights violations is the USA gov doing to supress people?

3.)Franki speaks but misses the point,


we have furiously labled Usama as the head of the 'demon' terrorists.
I think so, as does osama himself, as well as all the idol worshiping thuggee cultists that swear allegiance to him in the muslim world.
You again slip into Bush bashing lingo when you say,


our leader has neglect to capture this man,
You think the ones being hunted for are going to just let Bush capture them? Like he has any control of his prey and their ability to evade capture SO FAR!. Heck the cops cant garuntee they can catch a local murder even if they have his name address and picture...plus eyewitnesses that the guy is around the area...you think capturing osama can just be done with a snap of the fingers eh?
You also confuse the Iraq war with being a diversion, it isnt, its part of a larger regional plan to get the mid east to join the rest of the international community and not be rouge states. This includes emphasis on these states not endorsing terrorism and proliferations of WMD's.

4.) i didnt confuse anything...while many Americansare saying, "we have the baddest millitary on the planet" i dont see the people OR the government itself touting the millitary as this motherlands highest ideal and tool. and i never said army only, i said join the millitary, implying all branches of service. Having millitary superiority is not the same as endorcing the millitary as the supreme achievement for this society.

As far as the rest of these, while i generally find the article you cite as informative when looking at PAST common threads that fascist regiems have displayed, i do not see but a very thin link to making most of these points stick to todays USA.

You in your initial post didnt really delve into many of the latter items on your list, and in your reply didnt even mention them, yet your suddenly ready to claim intellectual superiority by seemingly brushing them off with a humorous laugh and spaz reaction.
Hardly a refutation of my points, or a defence of your position.
provide more than glossed over, thin, bush bashing examples to support a decent allegation, but one with little substance to back it up.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by CazMedia]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 05:24 AM
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Originally posted by Majic

By this reasoning, Britain is also at war with France, Spain, Germany, Italy and every other country it has ever been at war with, since this reasoning conveniently excludes the consequences of the passage of time.


exsactly that is why terrorism is too easily used agasint some one or party.
conveniently you say , i say this is sound reasoning. what has the passage of time got to do with it? once a terrorist always a terrorist isnt that the US way of seeing it?



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by CazMedia
Franki,
you barely glossed over 3 of 14 points and end your post thumpnig your chest as if these meger generalizations can paint the USA into being a fascist state? please.


please forgive the shortness of my post, i often have an issue with a short attention span. I must also mention that it was late and, well, sleep is nice. Do not worry i will finish with my post and attemptl solidify my point, despite my attempt to maintain a social life.


yet your suddenly ready to claim intellectual superiority by seemingly brushing them off with a humorous laugh and spaz reaction.


i often find that ppl mistake my sacastic dry humor as a self assertion of superiority. i would just like to say its very difficult for me to get my points accros over the internet, for writing often takes the life out of what i have to say (i use alot body language and the tone at which i state things makes humor obvios)

do not misinterperit this as an excuse, im simply saying this to allow you to see i claim no 'intellectual superiority'

also, last point, i made this post simply to initiate the discusion of the road that this country is heading down, and its possibility. do not take my words of ranting so literally, geez, as if i accually discus this as a 'holy war' with people accually around me, besides theyd probably haul me off
but for now i have to get ready for the day. it is called exaggeration, take it easy.



[edit on 10-11-2004 by Franki]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 07:58 AM
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how about no one even questioning bush on his actions?

WHAT!!! How many threads with "questions" (bashing) Bush can you find on this site alone? How many liberal slanted anchors from CBS/ABC/NBC have done stories that ONLY question policy/actions have there been? Does the use of the term "quagmire" ring a bell only 4 months after the war started? There is NO way in hell you can say the government is silencing its opponents.....where are the media enforcment goons from the feds?


yeah okay, but what was ment by this is, what official under bush really questions his actions. or better yet, if ne has accually, what official has raised a creditable point as to this being an unjust war



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 08:27 AM
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1) Nationalism is not a bad thing. Unless, that is, you have a grand desire for globalism. In that case, it is bad. Do you want globalism?

2) The Bush administration is not against human rights so this is merely a very large stretch.

3) So, if you are intelligent to realize those who are trying to kill you are your enemies you must be a fascist? Again, and as usual, a magnificent stretch to make Bush look like Hitler.

4) When you have enemies, you might want to look into a decent military.

5) So, because this nation has been moral for the most of its existence with the ability to know the difference between a right and a violation of both morals and ethics it must be now going down the path to fascism because we dare buck what the judicial activists have been shoving down our throats? I think not.

6) The liberal counterculture establishment controls the mass media. Again, no logic.

7) This nation was founded on the Christian faith. Your first Chief Justice, USSC, admonished us to fulfill our civil duty in always electing Christian leaders. Let’s see, do I want to listen to John Jay or the clown who wrote this who has been in error every step of the way?

8) Seems I got 7 and 8 swapped. No matter, the author broke one point into three. See above about enemies and what not. The answer fits here in security as well.

9) Corporation protected? You mean that which is linked to the economy? Where we work? Good night. Hitler breathed. I breathe! Oh my goodness, I’m seeing a resemblance!

10) As a proud union member, I assure you, we aren’t oppressed. As a matter of fact, as the law is written today, one doesn’t need the union as the employees can form as if they were a recognized union. Try again.

11) Again, a miss. Art is not disdained. Maybe some idiot’s idea of a crucifix submerged in urine being called “art”, but not art. Since the NEA still is in existence even though the left has high-jacked it so that it can throw scorn at what most of us hold dear, I’d say that the artists themselves are destroying art, not the government or the population.

12) Gee, the left says I can’t spank my children, tells everyone that everyone ELSE is to blame for their failures and crimes and ensures the media puts nonstop garbage on the boob tube, of course we will have crime. Would you like to ignore it? Honestly, I don’t obsess on crime, do you?

13) Yeah, the Kremlin didn’t have any cronyism, did it? As a matter of fact, when there are more than two people involved in anything, there’s never cronyism, huh? Oh my, fascism is wherever those silly humans are!! Run for your lives!!

14) Man, you guys just won’t let up, will you? The 2000 election conspiracy has long been debunked and now when the majority of the people have spoken as hasn’t happened since Reagan you guys still won’t let up, huh?

Sorry, I just don't buy it. As a matter of fact, I see this aas nothing more than a disgruntled Democrat writing a piece trying to make Bush look bad. This, to me, is obvious by the wild stretches and listing of things that do not apply or simply apply to ALL!



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by Franki
ran across an article that noted the characteristics of fascism. many of which seem to already be taking shape in the United States

this article takes into acount the similarities b/t fourteen fascist regimes: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Franco’s Spain, Salazar’s Portugal, Papadopoulos’s Greece, Pinochet’s Chile, and Suharto’s Indonesia.




Hey Franki - I think you're on a worthy track here. ...You might want to research Hitler's rise to power and compare with Bush... The similarities are downright eery. IE., Both started out without a majority; both were catapulted into 'new' positions quickly with corporate support; both implemented astounding agendas immediately, to benefit corporate power; both mined national fervor to support a corporate agenda....

Check it out and let me know what you think.








posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 08:41 AM
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Hey Franki - I think you're on a worthy track here. ...You might want to research Hitler's rise to power and compare with Bush... The similarities are downright eery. IE., Both started out without a majority; both were catapulted into 'new' positions quickly with corporate support; both implemented astounding agendas immediately, to benefit corporate power; both mined national fervor to support a corporate agenda....


Yea okay.. when do you expect Bush try and erradicate everyone but blue-eyed blond-haired white men? The basic fact is that their ideologies are COMPLETELY different. Hitler wanted genocide, Bush is just a puppet.



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