Voynich Manuscript 'Has Genuine Message'

reply to post by Rosinitiate


Well, as suggested in the thread already, these could be grafted plants. These could be exotic plants that were already rare in that day and age and are nowhere to be found today. There are plenty of plausible earthly explanations.

The fact that scientists of the day tended to code their work should point us in this direction before any ET, time traveling, or otherwise extraordinary theories. Afterall, this is obviously a scientific text of some sort.

reply to post by JayinAR


Understandable, but I am still confused about why I should be an expert...

Was it because I made some snide comment about them being some Earth Science book from Venus?!?

Honestly, its just as plausible in my opinion as it being a coded picture of a plant just not that plant. In fact, if I was going to code a picture of a plant I certainly wouldn't use an image of a different plant.

Also, if there were plant life such as shown in the manuscript certainly at least one of them would have been discovered at some point as a fossil, would it not?

Out of all the answers, the most probable IMO would likely be the least probable for you....that doesn't take much to deduce. That said, I don't have it on good authority other than my imaginative brain that it is "off world" pictures recreated by a scribe "on world" .

I am sure somewhere there is an original copy....something tells me if we were to see the orginal, it would be similar to archaeologists first discovery of Puma Punku

reply to post by Rosinitiate


I meant that remark as a general retort to anyone who suggests that because these plants appear unique that it should be "deduced" that these are plants from another world.

I cannot see the logic in this at all.

Also, the question has been posed more than once as to this being copied from some alien source then why are the pages numbered with Earthly numbers.

I know everyone is entitled to their opinions, but to me this theory holds water like a seive.

There is also the possibility that the language is both unique and a code.

It could be made up. Just depends on how involved the author decided to get with it.

Ooo I love this subject! Fascinating. As far as the illustration quality..to me it almost looks like an artist's field notebook. Intricate details, yet not precisely mapped lines.
Hey Melekim, couldn't help but notice the similarity of some of the illustrations and your avatar pic!

reply to post by charles1952


Yea, I saw that too I was thinking that maybe Gandalf wrote it. But who knows - I'll never decode it. Maybe alien left a book behind ...

I am pretty convinced it is an Alchemist Text.

It was quite common for alchemists to code their languages and send messages through complex pictographs.

This is just apparently the most famous "not yet deciphered" work.
I have strong inclinations to believe there are many other texts of this nature but I assume they are either lost in giant libraries like the Vatican's, or hidden away in some personal collections. Likely possibility to consider.

I wouldn't really waste much time trying to decipher something like this. I looked at it fairly closely a few times and was convinced that the answer is simple I am just too dense to figure it out.

And yes, in alchemy it is customary to leave the most important information encoded in symbolism rather than language itself. This is usually a security precaution if I am not mistaken. Same reasoning behind creating crypto alphabet.

Are there any experts on this document around who know if there are any "magic squares" found anywhere within the manuscript? Often times the key to decryption lies hidden within a magic square, so it is worth looking for. Also double check because the 'square' could be hidden or obscured as well.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I am pretty convinced it is an Alchemist Text.

It was quite common for alchemists to code their languages and send messages through complex pictographs.

This is just apparently the most famous "not yet deciphered" work.
I have strong inclinations to believe there are many other texts of this nature but I assume they are either lost in giant libraries like the Vatican's, or hidden away in some personal collections. Likely possibility to consider.

I wouldn't really waste much time trying to decipher something like this. I looked at it fairly closely a few times and was convinced that the answer is simple I am just too dense to figure it out.

And yes, in alchemy it is customary to leave the most important information encoded in symbolism rather than language itself. This is usually a security precaution if I am not mistaken. Same reasoning behind creating crypto alphabet.

Are there any experts on this document around who know if there are any "magic squares" found anywhere within the manuscript? Often times the key to decryption lies hidden within a magic square, so it is worth looking for. Also double check because the 'square' could be hidden or obscured as well.

edit on 23-6-2013 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)

Here's your magic square!



Out of all the images, when I saw this the first thought in my head was: "One of these things just doesn't belong here. One of these things are not like the others....."

Originally posted by JayinAR
Afterall, this is obviously a scientific text of some sort.

Science before "the scientific age" was called Alchemy in most cases.
Ancient alchemists were deeply into various topics like astronomy/astrology, chemistry, biology etc.
Alchemists developed many modern scientific method and principles.

Many famous names in science were into alchemy at least as a hobby or side-interest.

Go look into some of these 15-16th century alchemist manuscripts. They are incredibly similar to the methodology and symbolism represented in Voynich.

Originally posted by Char-Lee

Originally posted by Deetermined
Based on the dating of the manuscript, I wonder if this was some kind of witch doctor that was trying to preserve some medieval thought on the universe without being "found out" and burned at the stake for some ancient esoteric practices.

It looks like they did find some Latin in the book.

Were John Dee’s Enochian Keys of magic intended to unleash violent occult forces that would hurl us into another age?

His book of Angelic messages.
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

John Dee the famous mathematician who through scrying spoke to angels and wrote a book from what they told him is possibly connected.

Voynich Manuscript[edit] He has often been associated with the Voynich manuscript.[21][54] Wilfrid Michael Voynich, who bought the manuscript in 1912, suggested that Dee may have owned the manuscript and sold it to Rudolph II. Dee's contacts with Rudolph were far less extensive than had previously been thought, however, and Dee's diaries show no evidence of the sale. Dee was, however, known to have possessed a copy of the Book of Soyga, another enciphered book.[55]

en.wikipedia.org...

John Dee sounds like the most reasonable explanation so far.

He was so deep into this stuff it's freaky actually.

People really need to read up on this guy and what he was doing:

John Dee

John Dee (13 July 1527–1608 or 1609) was a Welsh[5] mathematician, astronomer, astrologer, occultist, navigator, imperialist[6] and consultant to Queen Elizabeth I. He devoted much of his life to the study of alchemy, divination and Hermetic philosophy.

He was essentially the court magician of the sorts.

Dee straddled the worlds of science and magic just as they were becoming distinguishable. One of the most learned men of his age, he had been invited to lecture on advanced algebra at the University of Paris while still in his early twenties. Dee was an ardent promoter of mathematics and a respected astronomer, as well as a leading expert in navigation, having trained many of those who would conduct England's voyages of discovery.

So apparently this guys talents are all over the place in many fields. A "Renaissance man" hardly does it justice.

Originally posted by Rosinitiate

Here's your magic square!

Out of all the images, when I saw this the first thought in my head was: "One of these things just doesn't belong here. One of these things are not like the others....."

Three toe foot.
Four toe/finger hand?
Spiked tail?
Six point head.

A turtle shell possibly?
Fire breathing turtle dragon?

Bowser
The King Koopa?

Bowser, also known as King Koopa, is a video game character and the main antagonist of Nintendo's Mario franchise. In Japan, the character is known as Koopa (クッパ Kuppa?)[1] and bears the title of Daimaō (大魔王?, lit. "Great Demon King").[2]

Nintendo are indeed masters of the Occult knowledge.
Let's not even get into Pokemon lol!

Just my two cents, in my opinion it looks like some type of under water civilisation which uses a serious of pipes / tubes to get about. Most of the images of women show them in water or sitting / emerging from a tube of some form. Some of the drawings resemble forms of coral, and the large drawing of a number of circles joining together could be a form of underwater / under ground networked systems. Just look at every imagine from he perspective that this represents some form of underwater / underground civilisation and you will understand where i cam coming from. This could explain the different types of plants, tubing systems, and images of water which appears to flow into various sealed chambers. Any way just my opinion.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Seahorse

Originally posted by Nustle
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Seahorse

The head is very similar to the Seahorse - Hippocampus.

However Seahorses don't have spiked tails, they have curled ones.
Also they have no legs with toes.
Nor do they have a shell (or is it folded wings?).

So although the head shape is vaguely similar, the other aspects seem quite fanciful.
The only fantasy character I thought of immediately that had the same characteristics was the boss of Mario.

Also the turtle and the dragon are centrally important aspects of the Zodiac and Mystical Traditions especially in the East. See Lao Tzu and the origins of Taoism and the mystical turtle.
In the Eastern Zodiac the turtle replaces the Crab/Lobster of the West, both are sea creatures known to cling tightly, they are shelled, etc.

Oh and speaking of that, the Hippocamp myth wiki needs to be compared with the Capricorn the Sea-Goat, and even such mythical legends as Mermaids.

We could spend all day talking about this one topic of Sea Mythology and even reveal it's critical importance within Alchemy.

I kinda regret deleting an earlier post I made where I compiled some keywords and terms about Alchemy topics for anyone just now taking an interest. I will put a few here just to piggyback.
Hermes Trismegistus, Hermetic Corpus, Prima and Ultima Materia, etc.
Also check out all the links in the wiki sections on Hermeticism.

Look up the Grimoire of Honorius

The Sworn Book of Honorius, or Liber Juratus (also Liber Sacer/Sacratus/Consecratus or Grimoire of Honorius) is a medieval grimoire purportedly written by Honorius of Thebes. Its date of composition is uncertain, but it is mentioned as Liber Sacer in the 13th century, apparently asserting a high medieval date. Johannes Hartlieb (1456) mentions it as one of the books used in necromancy. The oldest preserved manuscript dates to the 14th century, Sloane MS 3854 (fol 117-144). Sloane MS 313, dating to the late 14th or early 15th century, was once in the possession of John Dee. The book is one of the oldest existing medieval grimoires as well as one of the most influential.

reply to post by Nustle


One thing occured to me last night. What if it was a physical representation of Inner Earth!

Perhpas all those plants live within the earth? Same goes for the people living in the tubes and perhaps even the Seahorse.

Originally posted by Rosinitiate
reply to post by howmuch4another

 

Well I would love to think it is some book written by a monk of sorts and coded so not to receive reprisals from others.....but....then....I see this:

Come guys!! What the HELL is that?

A diagram of something very invloved. Judging by other pics from other pages...you can see some of those designs taking place in the diagram. This picture above is strying to explain how something works. Almost like, how the DNA modification process took place using a particular fruit.....Ambrosia!! HAHAHAHA. *sigh*

I really don't know and just like all those before me, equally baffled. That said, there is far far far more than meets the eye here. A simply explanation of someone just hiding something from the church or governments just don't ring true to me.

They look like sketches of microphotographs of plant stems. Do a image search for that term, you will see lots of circular and other shapes.

The VN _cannot_ be a "hoax" because the central premise of a hoax is that it has with it some claim to what it is or isn't, which the VN does not come with. No one has made a claim to authorship or meaning except for those ignorant of its true nature, which is - everyone. So it is simply something unknown, but nothing hoax-ish. It matters.

Also, the book _is_ from or at least about Earth. The occurrence of certain clues - the numbers 4 and 12, for example. THey both appear on circles such that the circle is quadranted - a very human thing to do. And the 12 appears on a circle as in a clock face. Human. Earth.

The plants - they have brown roots and green leaves. They have seed pods and fruit. Green leaves = photosynthesis = Earth. Seeds and leaves and fruit = seasons = off-axis planetary rotation = Earth. This is the smoking gun - that the plant structure implies seasons. Only an off-axis rotation yields seasons. THis is pretty specific to earth.

The language is broken into words, sentences, and paragraphs. This equals human = Earth. The plant images have little name tags - an earth convention.

This is NOT a thing from elsewhere. I do not think it describes plants from off-world for the above reasons.



Clearly the little "people" are humans, if caricature.

reply to post by zatara
This plant looks like the Mandrake plant. Has this already been suggested?
This is from Wikipedia:

Mandrake is the common name for members of the plant genus Mandragora, particularly the species Mandragora officinarum, belonging to the nightshades family (Solanaceae). Because mandrake contains deliriant hallucinogenic tropane alkaloids such as atropine, scopolamine, apoatropine, hyoscyamine and the roots sometimes contain bifurcations causing them to resemble human figures, their roots have long been used in magic rituals, today also in contemporary pagan traditions such as Wicca and Odinism.

Originally posted by StoutBroux
Maybe they should DNA test the paints, ink and paper to see if they're from earth. It's obviously old

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

At the Yale link I provided before in this thread there is a detailed chemical analysis of the Voynich Manuscript that can be read (it's a PDF)

Originally posted by Guyfriday

reply to post by JayinAR

 

While the thought that the writer could have worked out a code on another place does pop up now and then, it really doesn't seem like a code but rather a language of some sort. A scribe could have been hired to copy the book, but that doesn't mean that the scribe would have to be able to read the language it is written in. They would only need to copy the writing and pictures.

Per Gordon Rugg

"I don't think there's much chance that the Voynich manuscript is simply an unidentified language, because there are too many features in its text that are very different from anything found in any real language."

It's possible it's a code, not likely it's a language.

edit on 23-6-2013 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)

Gorden Rugg....I'll counter that with:

The linguist Jacques Guy once suggested that the Voynich manuscript text could be some exotic natural language, written in the plain with an invented alphabet. The word structure is similar to that of many language families of East and Central Asia, mainly Sino-Tibetan (Chinese, Tibetan, and Burmese), Austroasiatic (Vietnamese, Khmer, etc.) and possibly Tai (Thai, Lao, etc.). In many of these languages, the "words" have only one syllable; and syllables have a rather rich structure, including tonal patterns

From the Wiki.

Originally posted by stormcell

Originally posted by Rosinitiate
reply to post by howmuch4another

 

Well I would love to think it is some book written by a monk of sorts and coded so not to receive reprisals from others.....but....then....I see this:

Come guys!! What the HELL is that?

A diagram of something very invloved. Judging by other pics from other pages...you can see some of those designs taking place in the diagram. This picture above is strying to explain how something works. Almost like, how the DNA modification process took place using a particular fruit.....Ambrosia!! HAHAHAHA. *sigh*

I really don't know and just like all those before me, equally baffled. That said, there is far far far more than meets the eye here. A simply explanation of someone just hiding something from the church or governments just don't ring true to me.

They look like sketches of microphotographs of plant stems. Do a image search for that term, you will see lots of circular and other shapes.

Stormcell that is simply genius!



So looking at this. How in the # did a 14th century scribe get access to a microscope?