Christian Ministry Apologizes To LGBT Community And Halts Operations

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


Why do you take Paul's interpretation over Jesus' truncated commandments?

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


See, this is what gets me. Christians have to give these long-winded, convoluted answers to such SIMPLE questions. Why? Because you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. If you have to jump through that many loop holes and go THAT in depth to such a simple question, then it's probably not true.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I know hurting people (homosexuals) is wrong. I am extremely tolerant of Homosexuals. When I say that, I mean it.. please do not try to insinuate otherwise in your response to my question.

But how exactly do you know he is wrong? Or in other words, how do you know you are right? I know people (homosexuals) are hurt, and I know certain people have offended homosexuals. I know homosexuals don't receive equality and go through struggles in everyday life that heterosexuals don't consider.. and even if they do consider, they cannot fully understand what it feels like. I don't agree with what that Ministry did by the way and I am very pleased they apologized (or atleast a major player did) but it confuses me when people seem so sure of the secrets of life.. such as which religions are right and wrong


Please explain this to me; how you know you are right or how do you know people are wrong? Also, can you tell us what happens to us after we die?

reply to post by windword


We are told by Christ to "love your neighbor as yourself" because there is not one of us who is any different inherently than anybody else.

As I've made it clear before, I love the person in a righteous way as Christ loves the person. But I'm not going to sit back and pretend or ignore what Jesus said:

"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4)

And so...

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

Jesus came to save us from our sinful ways. Jesus didn't just manifest upon the Earth and preach peace and love. He also preached the grim reality of Hell. That Hell is reserved for sinners, those who live lawless lives.

"For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened." (Romans 1:21)

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


No. I did give a simple answer.

The Bible says homosexuality is a sin.

The question asked was regarding the use of the word "homosexual" in the Bible, to which I explained the word used in the Greek translation from the Hebrew, why it's there, and what it means.

reply to post by introV


Unlike some so-called professing Christians, I have far more sympathy than people may realize.

Every day for two years of my life, through middle school and even long after I graduated high school, I was picked on, insulted, laughed at, physically harassed and assaulted, had things thrown at me, had things stolen from me. I was constantly bullied. Why?

Because those who did the bullying thought that there may be a possibility that I might be gay. I dated girls like a normal boy, I played baseball, I did a lot of things. And yet, they had this "hunch" that I might be gay, and as a result, I was terrorized for many years over it.

Children are cruel. Adults can be even more cruel.

And so, if there's one person here who has incredible sympathy for what people who practice homosexuality go through in their lives regarding how people treat them, it would be me.

But having been saved by the blood of my Lord and Savior, my Master and Redeemer, and living my life as Christ-like as I can, being guided by the Word of God, I cannot cast aside my integrity as a Christian to view something I know as a sin as anything but a sin.

How these people were treated by this so-called "ministry" is inexcusable. The fact that some of them tried to commit suicide, or DID commit suicide, tells me that this ministry wasn't abiding in the Word. The Bible doesn't teach us that we can work or force ourselves to not sin.

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
They should apologize. The only cure for homosexuality is the same cure as for any other sin: Repentance, redemption, and the regeneration of the believer. The cure ISN'T some course you give somebody for weeks and weeks, and try psychological, emotional, and physical manipulation of the individual.

That being said, if they're referring to this one particular church as having "treated the LGBT community hurtfully", that would be understandable. But I believe I saw Church (with a capital C), which seems to imply that the whole Church of Christ is hurting homosexuals.

If you're being hurt by anything we say because you're gay, I'm sorry that you're offended. What I'm not and will never be sorry for is calling a spade a spade. Scripture says homosexuality is a sin. Period. It's no better than any other sin in the eyes of God, and I will treat it as such. Christ calls us to do this, and the Church shouldn't buckle under the pressure of homosexuals and their agenda.

In the end, Christ loves you, and so do I. But what I can't do is turn a blind eye and accept what is worldly or sinful as being a "normal lifestyle."

edit on 20-6-2013 by FollowTheWhiteRabbit because: (no reason given)

Nah, you can skip the repentance and redemption part and go straight to not feeling guilty about it, and God will forgive you. He'd be like "It's cool man, I goofed up when I build your sex-motivator" but he'll smile with tongue in cheek because we all know he knows exactly why he did it.

Maybe having a bit of respect for your body would be beneficial though. They basically warn you in the bible that if you sleep around, you're gonna get sick with something, we just don't know why so we presume it's God's wrath, so you should probably just sleep with one woman and make babies. Keep in mind this was written before the age of contraception.

Originally posted by Glass
Nah, you can skip the repentance and redemption part and go straight to not feeling guilty about it, and God will forgive you.

Yes. I'm sure Hitler didn't feel guilt about anything he did, so clearly God would be cool with it and forgive him.

Originally posted by Glass
He'd be like "It's cool man, I goofed up when I build your sex-motivator"

Nothing God does is a "goof up." He made us exactly the way He wanted to make us. But being fallen human beings, our bodies are wicked, our hearts are corrupt, our minds are filled with garbage. And you sit there and say, "It's alright, just don't feel guilty about it." No, when you sin, you should feel guilty about it because it's a disgusting thing to do to yourself. The great crime against God isn't that you didn't know the sin you commit is a sin, the great crime is that you KNOW God, you KNOW it's a sin, and you do it anyways.

Your argument seems to boil down to, "Well, God gave us the parts, functions, and drives to commit sexual immorality, so why wouldn't He want us to do it?" Well, God also gave us the ability to make nuclear weapons. So, with that logic, God couldn't wait for us to make WMDs and kill innocent people in, say, Japan. Right?

Originally posted by Glass
we just don't know why so we presume it's God's wrath

We presume it's God's wrath because God told us it is. We're not good, not one of us, and we all deserve far worse than any STD we could acquire through unprotected sex. We don't even deserve to be here, and yet, by the grace of God, we're here. God's mercy is wonderful. With the wave of a hand, he could have a bus run over you and that would be it for you. But he hasn't yet. You know why? Because God's will be done.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

Unlike some so-called professing Christians, I have far more sympathy than people may realize.

Really? Then have some sympathy for this:

Chambers said he was “deeply sorry” for the pain many have experienced and noted that some had committed suicide. Source

Here's a Bible quote for you: 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.

reply to post by Astyanax


I understand. You don't think I've thought about suicide before? I won't get into all the details, but I was at a point in my life that I really felt suicide was the only solution.

But you have to understand: I don't cast stones. I'm not judging anyone. I'm merely preaching from Scripture. If anything is throwing stones and judging others, it would be God's Word. As a Christian, it's my duty to bring God's Word to those who need it the most, to places where I'm called to do so.

If this was my personal opinion, I would understand being upset with what I'm saying. But this isn't my personal opinion. Until I became a Christian, I was like any other worldly person. I thought homosexuality was a normal lifestyle, I thought premarital sex was alright, I thought women should have the right to have abortions, I had intense hate in my heart and had evil thoughts and assumed they were normal. It's a glorious thing how Christ changes you.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

Very well, but think about what you're saying. You're getting perilously close to making excuses for the articles of your faith – 'apologetics' with a vengeance. If you have to do that, perhaps you should look more critically at what you have chosen to believe.

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

Originally posted by Glass
Nah, you can skip the repentance and redemption part and go straight to not feeling guilty about it, and God will forgive you.

Yes. I'm sure Hitler didn't feel guilt about anything he did, so clearly God would be cool with it and forgive him.

Invoking Godwin's Law on the first line of a reply? Nice. That would be a new record if it was an original response.

Look, you can't presume to know what exactly was going through Hitler's mind. No one can. Have you read Mein Kampf? I doubt you have, but if you want to get inside Hitlers head, scary place though it may be, you may actually find the true motive behind his actions. I don't agree with what he did, I find it heavy-handed and excessively brutal. He caused a lot of suffering, no doubt. And maybe he did have moments where he was consumed with guilt, but he did what he felt needed to be done. So did the Allies. Whats done is done.

Originally posted by Glass
He'd be like "It's cool man, I goofed up when I build your sex-motivator"

Nothing God does is a "goof up." He made us exactly the way He wanted to make us. But being fallen human beings, our bodies are wicked, our hearts are corrupt, our minds are filled with garbage. And you sit there and say, "It's alright, just don't feel guilty about it." No, when you sin, you should feel guilty about it because it's a disgusting thing to do to yourself. The great crime against God isn't that you didn't know the sin you commit is a sin, the great crime is that you KNOW God, you KNOW it's a sin, and you do it anyways.

If you didn't choke on that line, you'd have understood that I know that God does everything for a reason.

But the old concept of "sin" is itself a cause for suffering. I mean the concept itself here, not the things you label as sin. Your words demonstrate an adopted hatred of the human condition, which was given to you through your religious teaching. Your misanthropy is causing you pain, which is why you choose to lash out against it. I believe you would do well to let things slide and focus on your SELF. Banish the darkness you hold in your heart.

Sin is any action which has potential to have negative effects on the individual. Anger, Pride, Lust, Gluttony, Sloth...those other two that escape me at this time The bible warns us of their dangers. But God gave us free will to choose for ourselves. God forgives unconditionally. It is a flawed view that says God judges. For one to forgive, one must be in a state of total non-judgement. Acceptance. Your ANGER (deadly sin btw) causes you to not accept this idea of non-judgement, you would rather people be inflicted with great suffering for their transgressions. This is not the way. The sin is, in its own way a punishment. This is one of the things we must endure, due to the nature of this creation.

You may disbelieve me, it is your rightful choice. You may choose to say I presume too much. But I tell you, brother, that God told me all this. Just now.

Your argument seems to boil down to, "Well, God gave us the parts, functions, and drives to commit sexual immorality, so why wouldn't He want us to do it?" Well, God also gave us the ability to make nuclear weapons. So, with that logic, God couldn't wait for us to make WMDs and kill innocent people in, say, Japan. Right?

Oh wow, lets throw the massive atrocities of the Allies of World War 2 on the table as well, why not!

Yes. God gave us the parts, the motivations, and the will to choose. And we know he knew what he was doing when he did. He enabled us to do great good and terrible evil, and hopes that we might choose what is right. To grow, to evolve and prosper...or to destroy ourselves in trying, if that is to be the outcome.

Furthermore, the Allies felt they had to develop Nuclear Weapons before Germany could. Whose side are you on anyway?

Originally posted by Glass
we just don't know why so we presume it's God's wrath

We presume it's God's wrath because God told us it is. We're not good, not one of us, and we all deserve far worse than any STD we could acquire through unprotected sex. We don't even deserve to be here, and yet, by the grace of God, we're here. God's mercy is wonderful. With the wave of a hand, he could have a bus run over you and that would be it for you. But he hasn't yet. You know why? Because God's will be done.

God told us? Or did a bunch of bearded tribals tell us over 2000 years ago, based on their limited understanding of the architecture of creation?

The rest of that is merely misanthropic drivel.

Hoping you find your light.

Namaste.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Best. News. Ever.

Thing is even If every religion on the planet realised their mistake by saying homosexuality is a sin people like followthewhiterabbit will still use their religion as a veil for their own homophobic views.

Originally posted by kaylaluv

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by windword

 

Christ fulfilled the Law and the prophets, not destroying them or morphing them, but He Himself became the Law. In the days of old, the way to God was through obeying the Law. But in Christ fulfilling the Law, the way to God is through Christ.

His "two commandments" are basically a shortened version of the Ten Commandments (the Ten Commandments can essentially be summarized by Christ's two commandments during His Mount Olivet Discourse).

And yet, homosexuality is not mentioned in any of the 10 commandments...

Doesn't have to be, it was mentioned all over the old testament. He finds it disgusting because it destroys the human race and it goes against the institution he made between Adam and Eve. To say Christ never mentioned homosexuality is to be ignorant of the fact he's the one who created us in the first place, and he was the one on Mt. Sinai and Horeb with Moses when he first gave the law and told Moses our history. The OT gives us some inclination as to how he views things, particularly things he deems as abomination.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


If your going by what the god of the Old Testament thought was good and what was bad, and attributing those things to Jesus' tastes and distastes, then Jesus also loves rape, slavery, abortion, murder and various other types of destruction. He loves the smell of blood and hates shrimp cocktails and ham and cheese sandwiches.

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by windword

 

This commandment tells us to keep God's commands. God made male and female for the person of marriage, sex, having children, and having a family. Period. Nowhere in the Bible does God command "I made them male and female, but there's a few males I made that like other males, so that's fine."

No. It's explicit. God commanded men to marry women, and women to marry men. God commanded for men and women to procreate and multiply.

By going against these commands, you are breaking one of the Ten Commandments.

Not like it matters anyways, considering we aren't under Mosaic Law, so this entire point is rather moot.

Love God and love your neighbor, if you love me, keep my commandments. That is all.

Why didn't Jesus marry? Why did Paul discourage marriage?

The story of Exodus International is one of a man, Alan Chambers, "tormented" by the disparity of his natural homosexuality and his religious beliefs... He wanted so much to live up to the expectations that his religion and his God put on him, but everything in him said he was attracted to men.

So, in an effort to "fix" himself, he put forth the idea that God could "cure" him of his demons. He married a woman and brought many into his fold, promising a "cure" for their natural sexuality. He forced himself to "act" like a straight man. When it became clear that it didn't "cure" anything - that it made people's lives miserable, that people were killing themselves, rather than live with the "demons" that possessed them, and it became clear to him that his feelings had not changed and he himself was not really "cured", Alan started to question his "mission".

He finally saw that his own feelings of conflict were mirrored in his "flock", and he came clean with himself... Homosexuality cannot be "cured"... a "cure" should not be attempted. Because trying to do so only caused heartache, shame, guilt, misery, self-hatred and even death. Surely this is not "God's work". And he did the right thing. I admire him so much.

And now, evangelicals and other religious groups bad-mouth Alan Chambers, and in fear, do their best to hold onto the idea of a "cure" for homosexuality. They berate and shun homosexuals, as deviants and sinners. They judge, and fight against "granting" them equal rights, as if God himself has ordained them with the power to deny or grant rights to citizens of their choosing.

But there is much hope. Families and individuals who were damaged by the teachings at Exodus International are now supporting gay and lesbian causes and teaching love, acceptance and inclusion, as Jesus would have done.

Linda and Rob Robertson came from Redmond, Wash., to speak at the conference. Strict evangelicals with four children, they shared their own torment with the Bible's teachings and their son, Ryan, who came out to them when he was 12.

She said she and her husband forced him to choose between God and being a gay man, and for the next six years he tried everything possible. He went to reparative therapy with Exodus, but nothing worked.

At 18, with no answers, he became addicted to drugs, his mother said.

"We didn't intentionally, but we taught Ryan to hate himself," Linda Robertson said.

Although they later tried to form a more accepting relationship, he ultimately died of a drug overdose in 2009.

Since then, the Robertsons have become advocates for gay and lesbian young adults who feel shut out by the church.

"We have to stop warring," Rob Robertson said. "We've got to stop fighting."

Source

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
I don't cast stones. I'm not judging anyone. I'm merely preaching from Scripture.

That's what Alan Chambers thought. It's people who have this self-righteous attitude that cause all the suffering. We have to stop preaching. We have to stop fighting. Let your GOD sort it out. You are not the judge. You lie to yourself when you say you don't cast stones or judge people. You are lying to yourself and to your God.

I've had dealings with Exodus ministries in the past and all I can say is good riddance to bad rubbish.

One of the most difficult things to do as a homosexual person is try to tread the line between Christian belief and our natural sexuality. If you were raised in the faith as I was, the two don't sit well together and it is almost impossible to have a dialogue with a christian without either sounding you are attacking the faith or being smashed down with not particularly nice to hear bible quotes.

Christianity has a lot of very wonderful things to offer, but there are too many uneducated luddites out there who use the bible to peddle prejudice. It's time for the faith to clean up it's act and start dealing in humility, forgiveness and love.

Originally posted by charles1952

Hi Charles, as always, you raise some good points here. Let me address them for you as they do require a respectful answer.

Consider that fundamentalist Christian groups are regularly referred to as "retards," "racists," and "Nazis."

The fundamentalist groups that attract these names are judged by their offensive actions, not their faith. i.e Anti - whatever first and Christian second. The problem is that there are a lot of these groups active and the common thread that binds them together is the faith. This leads to people making silly claims about Christians and labelling them as you have cited above. Same thing happens to us in the gay community.

Isn't it a step up to compare them to a pedophile group which is trying (with some success) to gain acceptance in the Psychiatric and Legal community?

I've read a couple of articles that suggest fundamentalist Christianity be defined as a mental disorder. I am not sure how far it has gotten or how much support it has, but I think it is more sensationalism than an agenda. I personally do not see Christians as mentally ill but when they attack us for being gay, I will and do argue back.

Who is despised more in the GL (whatever letters, I forget) community, Fundamentalist Christians or those attracted to "younger people?" Just looking for some "equality" here.

Anyone that attacks us for who we are is going to get it right back. It's not because we are looking for trouble, it's because we were sent to concentration camps by the Germans (it wasn't just the Jews who went there) It's because we are made to feel unwelcome in our own towns and cities, it's because people who were our friends disown us because we come out to them, it's because our families throw us out and disown us even though we are blood.

If it turns out Christians attack us most then they will get the most attention. If another group turned out to be more hostile then they would get the attention more. We respond like with like.

You are one of the nice guys on the other side of the debate Charles and whatever your views on gay people are, we share the common link of being humans. That is all gay people want the world to get - we are human and a natural part of the diversity of life.