Niether Body nor Spirit

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by covertpanther

 

Its hard to admit to yourself that you are not adept or expereinced in the spiritual nature, and therefore have no clue in which you talk about. I understand why it is so hard for individuals - they fear being mocked, ridiculed and living "a fantasy" as they are hastly to label it.

You missed pthena's point.
What he said is this sort of "spirituality" is the new orthodox, and being grounded in your ordinary material existence is what will get you ridiculed, with your current attitude being a good example.

Spirituality is nothing new.. What rock do you live under?

Read some some BOOKS of ancient literature; the Bible is spiritual in nature, the Koran, genesis, book of the dead.. Those who govern this planet are ADEPT in spiritual nature, thus they control your minds and lwoer your spirit (this is how you take power from th masses, make them think they are a body) ..

If you people are content with your addiction with the EXTERNAL reality - goodluck upon death

Those controlling you now, will control you another life time, and another, and another.. Until your poor soul can wake up and figure it out. This is a PLAN-NET - to net and capture souls - reincarnation is not a good thing, karma is not a good thing. The lies of "lessons" - its all used to trap the creative essence (you the SOUL), farm it on a planet, and harvest its energy within a BOX called society.

I'm leaving this thread alone now, take care

reply to post by pthena

I think the introduction of the idea of "salvation" was a turning point. Some promise of eternal life for the "saved". This implied some sort of guarantee. Spirituality became a commodity in and of itself, divorced from practical life. Once it became a commodity, those who had means wanted to buy it. Once money became involved, professionals rose up to satisfy the demand.

Yes. Reward and punishment works extremely well on on an impressionable populace. The etymology of the word "spirit" has been completely inverted and perverted, and maybe it has evolved in such a way to help accommodate and enforce the idea of reward in punishment.

I like the idea of spirituality becoming a commodity, something bought and sold, rather than a personal act of creation. Something to think about.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

You're quite profound itsnowagain. I must pay extra attention to your posts.

You are not some thing else. You are no thing. You are not 'a' thing.

So many have called me. I consider myself something however.

Remove all things from you (like when you are in deep sleep) and what are you?

A man in a deep sleep.

The appearance that is appearing presently (right now) is existence - it appears to exist but is passing, it cannot be grasped - where is 2 minutes ago? It has passed, it no longer is appearing like it did 2 minutes ago. The movie of life (Maya/Leela) is playing, the movie is constantly moving and changing - it is passing. However, what you are never passes and is never seen - what you are never appears or disappears - it is constant.

It is us who passes. We affirm this when someone dies. For them, the "movie" stops. Whatever they are disappears. But we see that even beyond them, existence continues as it always had, because it is the only thing that is constant.

What this is, both is and isn't at the same time. Existence is what is appearing and non existence is what isn't appearing.

I suppose that superficially this is a decent explanation.

Non existence is avoided by individuals. They are missing their other half and feel lost - all they have to do is remember nothingness. Avoiding the void, they grab onto any thing that they feel will make that empty feeling go away but they are then needy and greedy and very rarely satisfied and always on the look out to fill up on some thing. They want to big themselves up so they don't feel so bad.

That emptiness that everyone is avoiding is what they are and until they face that emptiness they will be running scared - it is impossible to hide forever.

How can one avoid something that doesn't exist? Wouldn't half of something imply something else? How does one remember nothingness when there is nothing there to remember? The void only exists in thought, in conceptions, as does "nothingness", emptiness and nothings. You are much more than your thoughts.

This is nihilism. I do find something valuable in nihilism. As a transition into responsibility it has a profound effect on one's belief in himself and self-emancipation. But one can never remain there.

When that emptiness is realized completely, it is instantly filled with all there is. The nothingness and the image that is appearing currently completes the picture - it is fulfilment.

There rings some truth here. I too fell into the abyss of nihilism, disregarded everything as without value and meaningless. But nihilism also became meaningless, nothings became nothings, and emptiness became empty, myself, just a shell. Only creativity brought fulfilment. One must create in the place of your void.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
It is us who passes. We affirm this when someone dies. For them, the "movie" stops. Whatever they are disappears. But we see that even beyond them, existence continues as it always had, because it is the only thing that is constant.

You cannot be sure of this because you have not experienced the passing of the body yet.
In the movie of life you see appearances disappear, you experience the death or disappearance of some character but you have not yet experienced the passing of your body.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

However, what you are never passes and is never seen - what you are never appears or disappears - it is constant.
What this is, both is and isn't at the same time. Existence is what is appearing and non existence is what isn't appearing.

...Huh?!

What I am never appears. Existence is what is appearing. I am nonexistence.

What I am never disappears. Nonexistence is what isn't appearing. I am existence.

What I am, both exists and doesn't exist at the same time.

Itisnowagain, you have an irritating habit of explaining just enough to confuse me and never enough to clarify that confusion, even when I ask you to. Perhaps this could be one of those rare and far between moments when you actually make sense out of your nonsense? I would greatly appreciate it because this is looking to be a very intriguing discussion. It would be interesting to get a view of your world - it sounds like a Pink Floyd cartoon.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


What is the question?

reply to post by Itisnowagain

You cannot be sure of this because you have not experienced the passing of the body yet.
In the movie of life you see appearances disappear, you experience the death or disappearance of some character but you have not yet experienced the passing of your body.

Fair enough. Are we not allowed to infer from this apparent world? Is it deceiving us? Or is it us who deceives us?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

You cannot be sure of this because you have not experienced the passing of the body yet.
In the movie of life you see appearances disappear, you experience the death or disappearance of some character but you have not yet experienced the passing of your body.

Fair enough. Are we not allowed to infer from this apparent world? Is it deceiving us? Or is it us who deceives us?

What is appearing is appearing but a make believe 'world' is imagined.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

What is appearing is appearing but a make believe 'world' is imagined.

That begs the question. What is a make believe world?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

What is appearing is appearing but a make believe 'world' is imagined.

That begs the question. What is a make believe world?

Whatever is in mind.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Try explaining yourself more thoroughly. From the looks of it, you think we're in a perpetual state of nonexistent existence. Maybe you could elaborate.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Whatever is in mind.

Do thoughts not appear in your apparent world?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Try explaining yourself more thoroughly. From the looks of it, you think we're in a perpetual state of nonexistent existence. Maybe you could elaborate.

All that could be said to be real is this moment - past is a thought as it is not here it is gone, future is not here yet so future is also a thought.
So all that exists is this present moment - it appears to exist.
The mind speaks about beginnings and endings but really there is no beginning or ending to the present - for what you are. You see existence changing but what you are stays the same.
In deep sleep nothing is appearing to exist but you are still.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

All that could be said to be real is this moment

How do you know this moment isn't a dream?

The mind speaks about beginnings and endings but really there is no beginning or ending to the present for what you are. You see existence changing but what you are stays the same.
In deep sleep nothing is appearing to exist but you are still.

In response to which, I say this:

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

However, what you are never passes and is never seen - what you are never appears or disappears - it is constant.
What this is, both is and isn't at the same time. Existence is what is appearing and non existence is what isn't appearing.

...Huh?!

What I am never appears. Existence is what is appearing. I am nonexistence.

What I am never disappears. Nonexistence is what isn't appearing. I am existence.

What I am, both exists and doesn't exist at the same time.

You are full of contradictions. That's why I asked you to elaborate, to give you a chance to make up your mind and perhaps flesh it out a little.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Whatever is in mind.

Do thoughts not appear in your apparent world?

Thoughts and words appear presently. The stories they tell are stories made of words but they don't actually make or do anything. Words produce a dream world of separation.
Words build a world inside that does not actually exist and the individual lives in that world.
The realization of the non conceptual reality is what sets one free.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

All that could be said to be real is this moment

How do you know this moment isn't a dream?

Life is but a dream.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
You are full of contradictions. That's why I asked you to elaborate, to give you a chance to make up your mind and perhaps flesh it out a little.

edit on 21-6-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

You gave me a chance? To help you understand?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

The mind speaks about beginnings and endings but really there is no beginning or ending to the present for what you are. You see existence changing but what you are stays the same.
In deep sleep nothing is appearing to exist but you are still.

In response to which, I say this:

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

However, what you are never passes and is never seen - what you are never appears or disappears - it is constant.
What this is, both is and isn't at the same time. Existence is what is appearing and non existence is what isn't appearing.

...Huh?!

What I am never appears. Existence is what is appearing. I am nonexistence.

What I am never disappears. Nonexistence is what isn't appearing. I am existence.

What I am, both exists and doesn't exist at the same time.

There is only this moment that is appearing to exist - there is nothing else. The present moment always appears differently but there is something that knows it is changing.
The knowing aspect is constant but gets overlooked because it cannot be seen because it is seeing the appearing (apparent) existence. Non existence and existence is what this present moment is made of - there is nothing else and will never be anything else because this is it - it is the one.
It is not possible to separate existence from non existence but non existence can be without the appearance (apparent existence).

In deep sleep for you there is nothing (you do not even know of your existence), it is void and then the light comes on and apparent existence is.
Non existence is the absolute reality - the only way it can know itself is by apparently dividing itself with the light.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Thoughts and words appear presently. The stories they tell are stories made of words but they don't actually make or do anything.

Thoughts and words can do a lot, actually. Do I need to post every speech, article, or quote that has inspired and changed the nation or world? Words are powerful things.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Thoughts and words appear presently. The stories they tell are stories made of words but they don't actually make or do anything.

Thoughts and words can do a lot, actually. Do I need to post every speech, article, or quote that has inspired and changed the nation or world? Words are powerful things.

Yes but without people or belief words do nothing.
In reality words just appear like wisps of nothing out of nothing and disappear back to nothing.
Making a speech or story out of them to divide makes the world of separation - which is the conflict - the human condition.

Words do indeed do a lot - they divide that which is whole and complete by deluding one into believing in all sorts of things that are not true.