Niether Body nor Spirit

reply to post by covertpanther

Ive been a member here for years under other accounts, before I made accounts I was a long time "lurker".

Does that mean that you've been banned more than once?

the bottom line as I keep saying over and over - when your body dies, your consciousness will seperate from the materrial world you so desperately held on too your entire life. It will be too much of an experience for oyu to grasp in the moments - your essence will have little time, be turned around, and a new child you will become. Starting all over again until YOU FIGURE IT OUT.

And this "consciousness", this "essence"; do you have some reason to say to anyone else that it is a distinct atom, as opposed to a complex made of many atoms, and thus subject to decay ?

Edit to add: You might want to get a spell checker. I use tinySpell, it's free and can be used with any writing app, including the ATS Post editor.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I can not disagree with this mysticnoon. However, I only observe and relate the paradoxes and contradictions in the language. The Law of non-contradiction applies universally.

Part of the problem arises when spiritual perspectives are conflated with material viewpoints.

If quantum observations are explained using Newtonian physics alone, then paradoxes and contradictions will appear. New methods of scientific observation and analysis were introduced to resolve these paradoxes.

Spirit not only lies beyond the material, but also the quantum worlds, so it is understandable that contradictions appear if metaphysical properties are explained in materialistic terms.

I find the eastern mystic terms for non-physicality helpful in discussions of spiritual philosophies as there is a distinction between the physical and spiritual natures. For example, the spiritual faculty of hearing is called surat, and the spiritual faculty of seeing is called nirat. This distinguishes it clearly from the normal sense faculties of hearing and seeing.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Maybe that's where we differ. Actions, to me, speak louder than words when they go against what is being preached. When the mouth says one thing, but the rest does differently, it doesn't go by unnoticed. I think I'm doomed to see hypocrisy in all philosophy. That may be my curse.

That's interesting, as I saw myself afflicted by the same curse in the atheistic phase of my life.

I wonder, though, how would you respond if you met someone whose every action corresponded to their teachings? Would it alter your perspective on spiritual matters, or is the perception of hypocrisy only one of many reasons for your stance?

By the way, each time I read one of your opening posts, I am reminded of the Bee Gee's song, "Words":

"It's only words, and words are all I have, to take your heart away".

And then it gets stuck in my head for the rest of the day....

I'm beginning to see the fruitlessness of these threads. What we should be worried about is how to help ourselves and those around us be happy, peaceful and content. We needn't concern ourselves with the beliefs and constructs others have created to structure their lives, nor speculate at the metaphysical nature of the universe and spirituality (which we can never be truly certain about anyway). All that really matters is how you are feeling right now.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
I'm beginning to see the fruitlessness of these threads. What we should be worried about is how to help ourselves and those around us be happy, peaceful and content. We needn't concern ourselves with the beliefs and constructs others have created to structure their lives, nor speculate at the metaphysical nature of the universe and spirituality (which we can never be truly certain about anyway). All that really matters is how you are feeling right now.

Well, for some of us, discussing philosophical and metaphysical concepts is one of the things which helps us enjoy the moment.

reply to post by covertpanther

Its hard to admit to yourself that you are not adept or expereinced in the spiritual nature, and therefore have no clue in which you talk about. I understand why it is so hard for individuals - they fear being mocked, ridiculed and living "a fantasy" as they are hastly to label it.

You missed pthena's point.
What he said is this sort of "spirituality" is the new orthodox, and being grounded in your ordinary material existence is what will get you ridiculed, with your current attitude being a good example.

Another thread written by someone who just has good (not in my opinion) arguing skills - clever with words and symbols. Shame he has not found what he really wants.

reply to post by mysticnoon

I find the eastern mystic terms for non-physicality helpful in discussions of spiritual philosophies as there is a distinction between the physical and spiritual natures. For example, the spiritual faculty of hearing is called surat, and the spiritual faculty of seeing is called nirat. This distinguishes it clearly from the normal sense faculties of hearing and seeing.

I particularly relate to the idea of the asura of the Vedas; indeed it is an underlying theme of all my threads. But I think it necessary to employ supernatural explanations for natural phenomena.

That's interesting, as I saw myself afflicted by the same curse in the atheistic phase of my life.

I wonder, though, how would you respond if you met someone whose every action corresponded to their teachings? Would it alter your perspective on spiritual matters, or is the perception of hypocrisy only one of many reasons for your stance?

First of all, I don't think there is such a someone. I think everyone is hypocritical. But when it comes to spiritual matters, where people basically give away the power of their own thinking, I see nothing but satisfying one man's vanity, which may seem fun for a while, however, in the end, time wasted. I think the very act of teaching spiritual matters goes against spirituality. Spirituality, in its infancy, was concerned with the natural, with "the breath" and motion—life. Now it's concerned with the non-physical, the abstract and the supernatural—death. This is what troubles me the most, the perversion of life into something valueless, where people see themselves—or at least the parts they can see, smell and touch—as without value, as meat.

reply to post by HarryTZ

He owns a ridiculous amount of Rolls Royces, so what? When has Osho said that owning physical objects is 'wrong'? You seem to think that the Buddhist philosophy is about external appearance, that the goal is to 'seem humble'. That is a silly thought at best. Buddhism suggests that we renounce attachment to the physical world, not that we abandon it. And we do this for ourselves, our own inner well-being, not so people will think highly of us. I would say that this is your curse, that you judge a human being by his outer appearance. But a person is much more than just their outwardly appearance. There is so much more within them that you have not seen... judging them just becomes foolish. So until you realize that Osho has never gone against his own teachings, you have missed the point completely.

I don't have anything against Buddhism. In fact I spent a time of my life as a buddhist; time I would never take back. But, if you stay still for too long you become stagnant.

Osho's teachings were mediocre at best and not at all original. It is originality and artistry I seek.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Osho's teachings were mediocre at best and not at all original. It is originality and artistry I seek.

Original art is everywhere when you awake to the truth but you cannot see it because all you see is a puzzle and a competition.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Another thread written by someone who just has good (not in my opinion) arguing skills - clever with words and symbols. Shame he has not found what he really wants.

Like a cornered fox, someone bites. Is that why my threads are littered with your responses? It seems you've found what you really want, but it kind of loses its charm if no one else wants it doesn't it?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Another thread written by someone who just has good (not in my opinion) arguing skills - clever with words and symbols. Shame he has not found what he really wants.

Like a cornered fox, someone bites. Is that why my threads are littered with your responses? It seems you've found what you really want, but it kind of loses its charm if no one else wants it doesn't it?

Oh you want it but you can't find it.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Original art is everywhere when you awake to the truth but you cannot see it because all you see is a puzzle and a competition.

You and someone else posted the same video on the same thread. You utter the same words, same euphemisms, and always a deep contradiction of everything you preach. How original.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Oh you want it but you can't find it.

Keep it.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


You misunderstand. Art is all around.
Realize the mystery.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
This is what troubles me the most, the perversion of life into something valueless, where people see themselves—or at least the parts they can see, smell and touch—as without value, as meat.

Anecdotally, this flies against my observation of friends and associates on spiritual paths who take great care to maintain their body in a healthy state, and spend more time enjoying outdoors than sititng indoors in meditation and contemplation.

It is the undue attachment to the sensual pleasures which is regarded as a barrier to spiritual progress, not the free and happy appreciation of them.

"Should I laugh at this? Or should I wonder if they know something I do not? If they are serious, certainly they are more enlightened than I, for they have sat, thought, and concluded that they are not that which sits, thinks and concludes. Certainly, only the enlightened are strong enough to live—or at least lie—in paradox."

What a remarkable statement. Much thanks to you, and others who have in course generated such remarkable Dialogue.

What a pleasure to read.

reply to post by mysticnoon

Anecdotally, this flies against my observation of friends and associates on spiritual paths who take great care to maintain their body in a healthy state, and spend more time enjoying outdoors than sititng indoors in meditation and contemplation.

It is the undue attachment to the sensual pleasures which is regarded as a barrier to spiritual progress, not the free and happy appreciation of them.

I have to agree with you once again. I too have such friends. But if this is the case, "spiritual progress" is better known as "health". Health, in all cases, is the key to any growth and well-being.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Spirituality, in its infancy, was concerned with the natural, with "the breath" and motion—life. Now it's concerned with the non-physical, the abstract and the supernatural—death. This is what troubles me the most, the perversion of life into something valueless,

History of Religion does seem to show this. The shaman or priest was concerned with things like healings or telling from the sun, moon, and stars when to hunt, plant, harvest, even migrate. There was never a guarantee. Even the best astrological calculation can not predict an unseasonable storm that could wreck a planting or harvest. Life and death were seen as natural things, not a spiritual crisis.

I think the introduction of the idea of "salvation" was a turning point. Some promise of eternal life for the "saved". This implied some sort of guarantee. Spirituality became a commodity in and of itself, divorced from practical life. Once it became a commodity, those who had means wanted to buy it. Once money became involved, professionals rose up to satisfy the demand.

Spirituality became economics, divorced from physical needs like food, shelter, safety from disaster and even joy.

What a mess! From physical well-being without guarantees to nothing with a lifetime (eternity?) guarantee!

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
It is always the self-proclaimed “spiritual” who inform us that we are not what we look at in the mirror, that we are instead something else—a soul, a spirit, a consciousness, an ego, some true nature or other, a ghost in a shell, an immortal monad completely distinct from that which contains it—so they and many others before them have promised.

You are not some thing else. You are no thing. You are not 'a' thing.
Remove all things from you (like when you are in deep sleep) and what are you?
The appearance that is appearing presently (right now) is existence - it appears to exist but is passing, it cannot be grasped - where is 2 minutes ago? It has passed, it no longer is appearing like it did 2 minutes ago. The movie of life (Maya/Leela) is playing, the movie is constantly moving and changing - it is passing. However, what you are never passes and is never seen - what you are never appears or disappears - it is constant.
What this is, both is and isn't at the same time. Existence is what is appearing and non existence is what isn't appearing.
Non existence is avoided by individuals. They are missing their other half and feel lost - all they have to do is remember nothingness. Avoiding the void, they grab onto any thing that they feel will make that empty feeling go away but they are then needy and greedy and very rarely satisfied and always on the look out to fill up on some thing. They want to big themselves up so they don't feel so bad.
That emptiness that everyone is avoiding is what they are and until they face that emptiness they will be running scared - it is impossible to hide forever.
When that emptiness is realized completely, it is instantly filled with all there is. The nothingness and the image that is appearing currently completes the picture - it is fulfilment.