Niether Body nor Spirit

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posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 02:50 AM
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Neither Body nor Spirit.


 


John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.


John 15:19 
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

Yes. “The world hates you”. Luckily for us, hate is a human trait.


It is always the self-proclaimed “spiritual” who inform us that we are not what we look at in the mirror, that we are instead something else—a soul, a spirit, a consciousness, an ego, some true nature or other, a ghost in a shell, an immortal monad completely distinct from that which contains it—so they and many others before them have promised. Perhaps they don’t like what they see; maybe they would rather exist inside-out; or maybe they tire of being held back from something they can only dream of, a world where only the “spirit” can enter, to persist like the sound of a song without an instrument to play them.

For millennia, they have taught us to repudiate ourselves as “original sin”, to repudiate reality as merely “the world or the things in the world”, as if we were the hopeless nihilists they say we should be. Only through our obedience to these doctrines and their practices can we even hope to find liberation from the dumb material of the universe and our wretched corpses. Hope they shall. And then? Liberation to what? What freedom here is promised: to reign in the afterlife? death? Malevolent and hateful to “the things in the world” are they, to us, nature, themselves—and we christen them saints or enlightened? It takes a strong aversion to irony to not laugh at this.

And since we do love irony, we seek it, don’t we friends? Wouldn’t the ultimate irony be to believe we aren’t what we are? Every time a “spiritual” one tells me I’m not my body they do so with their body. Every sound, every movement, every inch of effort put into their expression contradicts what they say. Everything they have conceived, experienced, sensed, felt, imagined, dreamt, has been while living as a human being. Should I laugh at this? Or should I wonder if they know something I do not? If they are serious, certainly they are more enlightened than I, for they have sat, thought, and concluded that they are not that which sits, thinks and concludes. Certainly, only the enlightened are strong enough to live—or at least lie—in paradox.

I wonder if they have discovered this “spirit” themselves, if they have arisen to this conclusion by utilizing the power of their very own human being, their thought, their reason, their experience as only they have lived it, because it sounds all too familiar to what we’ve always been promised by the dusty doctrines of death and self-repudiation, the ready-made second-hand thoughts of others before us, religious ideas. Any claims of the spirit are the fragments and ever grasping hands of the church doctrines upon an impressionable mind, the remains of the impossible assertion that one must serve in this world for reward in the next. Like God, consciousness, the soul and the like, the only place we will find the notion of a “spirit” is in the promises of its advocates. So it has always been.


James 4:4 ESV / 23 helpful votes
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Where does this outlook leave me? Spiritless, an “enemy of God”, a heathen? Am I simply disregarded as some sad soul who believes in nothing? On the contrary, you great ironists, it is not I who believes in nothings. I am a friend of the world!

No; I am not a spirit. But likewise, it would be just as foolish to assume I am a body only.

When I walk in a room, I am not known as a body, I am not seen as a corpse, a slab of meat or a rotting flesh-prison. I bring with me the eternity of movement and chaos, function, creativity, a personal culture, and any and all presuppositions and memories about me arise in the mind of those who behold me. I am an animate and dynamic being, like everyone, but not only that—a human being, a creator. When my lifeless corpse lays in front of you, when all movement and function within me ceases, when the instrument breaks and the music stops, no more creation, you can see a body, what merely the body is.

Most of all, we are not your abstractions. We are not the extent of your creativity. There comes a time in everyone’s life when they must define themselves, to sell their cloak and buy a sword, to face their true judge and finally make the choice to become what they are. That definition should be just as unique as the one it defines.

Thank you for reading,





posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 03:11 AM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


Well said...

You seem a little worried about it though...

Why do you care what others tell you if you're not at least curious as to why some people come to these conclusions?




posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 03:59 AM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


You will rethink what you wrote in this thread when the day comes you'll go to the other side. I understand the fact many charlatans can spread many lies under the veil of salvation through spirit. The very fact a lie is hidden under a truth does mean the truth has become a lie though, this is the very point of this thread I think. Nice thoughts I must admit, I feel ya
.




Thruthsek3r



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 04:24 AM
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No; I am not a spirit. But likewise, it would be just as foolish to assume I am a body only.


I have been puzzled as to your recent fondness of semantic abstractions. you used to make a lot of sense, but more recently it has appeared that you prefer to ignore the spirit of the word, and instead insist that words are sterile things which have a definitive and objective meaning.

as a result, we do often see dictionary quotes being used to support your argument. It has long been a pet-peeve of mine that WE write the dictionary ...it does not write us.

but fortunately here in the final words of your post, you regain sanity.

my response (relevant to all of your semantic rants) is this: since the days of Descartes and Newton our culture has formed around the concept of determinism and blind mechanics. no doubt this approach has been quite useful and deserving of it preferred philosophical status. but, as with your mention of chaos etc., it is now more important than ever to acknowledge that reductionism can only ever be an approximation of reality.

in most cases, it is the space between the words which allows for the richness of our experience. it is the gnarled mass of criss-crossing molecular signals which gives rise to intelligent being, which, if interpreted linearly, is nothing more than noise. we are not the signal. WE ARE THE NOISE.


people clinging to their "anti-materialist" dogmas, bless their hearts, are simply trying to communicate in the best way they know how that mechanics have never actually been of any use in describing the things which actually matter.

and we should definitely not throw the dictionary at them.



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 04:51 AM
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The creator created us in his own image. We are the creator, and he is us. The people of the world need to learn to curb their thoughts and confine them to a path of peace and productivity. We can create it and redo it and make it in a way that works for everyone. The problem is that so few have so much power.

We are caught up in a crucible of change. And that we will do, for the better or the worse is up to YOU.



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 07:22 AM
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reply to post by Coopdog
 



The people of the world need to learn to curb their thoughts and confine them to a path of peace and productivity.


I don't know why, but after reading your post I had a brief vision of charlton Heston yelling "soylent green is people.....it's PEOPLE!!!"

your advice sounds all good and all, but human beings are part of the animal kingdom. and as such, we are subject to scarcity of resources necessary for survival. even if we someday manage to eliminate this scarcity, we will still carry in our genes a loooooong history of survival adaptations. so advising someone to prematurely adopt a "path of peace" is actually counterproductive to the natural path of their psychological development.

you achieved peace and productivity (presumably) after many stages of selfish, tyrannical, and hedonistic impulses....and according to your own timescale. you should allow others the same opportunity.

eventually we'll all get there, but not because someone told us we needed to.



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 09:34 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 





Well said...

You seem a little worried about it though...

Why do you care what others tell you if you're not at least curious as to why some people come to these conclusions?


I am very interested how people come to these conclusions. I love the psychology of it all.



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 09:35 AM
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reply to post by thruthseek3r
 




You will rethink what you wrote in this thread when the day comes you'll go to the other side. I understand the fact many charlatans can spread many lies under the veil of salvation through spirit. The very fact a lie is hidden under a truth does mean the truth has become a lie though, this is the very point of this thread I think. Nice thoughts I must admit, I feel ya .


What's to fear? Death doesn't exist when I do.



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 09:39 AM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Thank you for reading,

Thank you for writing.

You have uncovered the irony of denying the real current self in order to secure a hypothetical ego existence into the future.



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by tgidkp
 





I have been puzzled as to your recent fondness of semantic abstractions. you used to make a lot of sense, but more recently it has appeared that you prefer to ignore the spirit of the word, and instead insist that words are sterile things which have a definitive and objective meaning.


I agree. I have been focusing on language as of late. It is a sign of where I am philosophically.

But, how have I ignored the spirit of the word? Look at the word's history, an ancient one it is, and you will see who is doing the ignoring.



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


a few small flaws/errors
1-The Spirit is not within the Body, The Body is within the Spirit

2-


Every time a “spiritual” one tells me I’m not my body they do so with their body.

whence originated the idea[s] being communicated? the desire and the will to communicate?
if you insist that it's all just chemical brainfarts [matter in motion/neuroscientific POV] this makes you a nihilist
not someones labeling you. methinks you are ignoring some pesky causality links at the end of the chain.

nihilism is an extremist reaction to what you refer to as "spirituality", rampant and mindless Consumerism being its most popular sect at present, i.e.pizzaguetti slushies, bacon flavored ice cream and such being perfect examples of the nihilistic holy grail quest: the frantic appetite for sensation, anything that will make the self seem less insubstantial.
[which is kind of ironic, hmmm? why would an automaton "care"?]

3-


There comes a time in everyone’s life when they must define themselves, to sell their cloak and buy a sword, to face their true judge and finally make the choice to become what they are. That definition should be just as unique as the one it defines.


I am also in agreement with you regarding "hating the world [matter ]"
this is not only extremist, but condescendingly patronizing, basically it's escapism, one is supposed to climb the mountain to get away from the worlds distractions and temptations, however one is supposed to climb down again*,
as Life/Existence is a Dance, and Matter merely being Spirit at it's lowest vibration.

*[unless it's Sorcery we're talking about, in which case one jumps off and out]

while it may seem you are on crusade against the Non-material, methinks you are still seeking as the above sentiments are more transcendental [psst religious] than materialist.
carry on
edit on 19-6-2013 by TheMagus because: added comment



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 12:47 PM
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The spiritual path is for the individual. Each of us are so completely alone in our consciousness, so much so that the word 'humanity' loses its meaning. You may try project these ideas of brothership and love onto the physical world, but there is no 'other' for you to love, there is only you and your experiences.
As Friedrich Nietzsche put it so painfully truthful, “Please, don’t destroy people’s lies, their illusions, because if you destroy their illusions they will not be able to live at all; they will collapse.”

We work to drop identification with the physical world not because we are told to by some guru or master, but because we have realized the suffering in our lives is caused by attachment to the ever-changing impermanence of the physical life. All we do is anticipate the future and mourn the past. Sometimes we don't even anticipate the future... we mourn that, too.
So we are simply tired of the emotional pain we inflict upon ourselves on a daily basis, and we see that it is getting us nowhere at all. We begin to recognize the illusion for what it is. At this point, we either let it go entirely, or we suffer deeply in resistance. This is the beginning of the path to liberation.

Our consciousness is naturally free. Freedom is the absolute state of existence. Free because it is nothing... boundless and conditionless nothing. Those who are lost in unconsciousness try to place physical conditions on it, when it is that which observes all conditions. They try to describe it, yet it is that in which all descriptions are contained. The seer cannot be seen, and that which is seen exists only because of the seer. Every aspect of the universe is relative to some other aspect, but consciousness is absolute, without opposite.
Begin to identify with that absolute nothingness, instead of the body you've accumulated or the thoughts running through your mind. You will notice there is no 'I' in this experience... it feels like empty space. All you have to do is quiet your mind for a moment and just witness. Don't think about witnessing, don't make judgments about it.. just witness. It is very peaceful.

Why do we defend the physical so? Why do we feel it is a necessary aspect of our being? It has done absolutely nothing for us. Our identification with it is the very reason why life becomes a misery instead of a joy. This is the ultimate example of Stockholm syndrome.
It is just a never ending game. I want this food, I want that car, I want this baby, I want that phone... our physical desires are insatiable. We can never be happy and grateful for what we do have, and we're always left wanting more than when we started. This is the source of human misery.

Every once and a while we have small glimpses of joy, brief moments of clarity. But do those really justify the constant feeling of dissatisfaction we are usually drowning in? It is our natural birth-right to be happy throughout the experience of life, yet we get lost in it and mistake it for reality. It is only possible to live a truly joyful life when you know you cannot be touched by it.
edit on 19-6-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 01:00 PM
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reply to post by TheMagus
 




1-The Spirit is not within the Body, The Body is within the Spirit


I never said the spirit was within the body. Therefore, it is not an error on my part. Nonetheless, I'm interested in how you've arrived at your conclusion?



whence originated the idea[s] being communicated? the desire and the will to communicate?
if you insist that it's all just chemical brainfarts [matter in motion/neuroscientific POV] this makes you a nihilist
not someones labeling you. methinks you are ignoring some pesky causality links at the end of the chain.



nihilism |ˈnīəˌlizəm, ˈnē-|
noun
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.
• Philosophy extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence.
• historical the doctrine of an extreme Russian revolutionary party c. 1900, which found nothing to approve of in the established social order.



Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[1]


Those that repudiate "the world or the things in the world" as valueless means to some supersensual existence are the nihilists.



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Akragon
 





Well said...

You seem a little worried about it though...

Why do you care what others tell you if you're not at least curious as to why some people come to these conclusions?

.................................................

I am very interested how people come to these conclusions. I love the psychology of it all.



ahh I see... so do I actually...

I considered answering your post on a point by point basis, but that would only lead to a long drawn out conversation which rarely leads anywhere... plus I was pretty tired last night


I would say most are born into their beliefs... spoon fed from birth... but others like myself want to know why these beliefs are present like yourself...

Through reading various texts which one may fight that certain things "ring true" within a mans heart... others pass the same things off as nonsense... though if you have studied any texts from various religions across the board theres one thing that all of them have in common... The existence of life after death...

All religion comes down to this basic tenet... Yet most also seek to enslave the members of their church by defining laws which one must abide by in order to attain this "life after death"... and most are so brainwashed by their religion that they will even deny simple logic in order to maintain their beliefs are correct.

Spiritualists on the other hand tend to already know life after death exists... they need no book to tell them what is true... for truth is written in all mens hearts anyways...

Personally I need to label for my beliefs... they are what they are... and they are subject to change when I happen to encounter a "higher truth" then what I already know...

Which rarely if ever happens these days.


S&F btw
edit on 19-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by HarryTZ
 




Why do we defend the physical so? Why do we feel it is a necessary aspect of our being? It has done absolutely nothing for us.


It allows us to exist. If you think being physically formed is the cause of your misery, then you just described everything in the universe. If none of this does nothing for you, why do you still exist? What is keeping you hear?



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 




Spiritualists on the other hand tend to already know life after death exists... they need no book to tell them what is true... for truth is written in all mens hearts anyways...


I wonder then how they know? Maybe they've seen it?



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Akragon
 




Spiritualists on the other hand tend to already know life after death exists... they need no book to tell them what is true... for truth is written in all mens hearts anyways...


I wonder then how they know? Maybe they've seen it?


Believe it or not my friend... we have all "seen it"... Some are given the gift of actually seeing their past lives... some see spirits or "ghosts" for lack of a better word...

The reasons are numerous....

Myself... I have never once seen anything that could be considered "supernatural"... What I know comes from study... and seeing the effect my beliefs have on my world and others around me




posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 01:22 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 





Believe it or not my friend... we have all "seen it"... Some are given the gift of actually seeing their past lives... some see spirits or "ghosts" for lack of a better word...

The reasons are numerous....


By "seeing" I think you mean imagining. The imagination is very powerful indeed. I can fly in my imagination.




Myself... I have never once seen anything that could be considered "supernatural"... What I know comes from study... and seeing the effect my beliefs have on my world and others around me


I appreciate your honesty here. It is a rarity. But study of what may I ask?



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

It allows us to exist. If you think being physically formed is the cause of your misery, then you just described everything in the universe. If none of this does nothing for you, why do you still exist? What is keeping you hear?


I did not say that physical incarnation causes misery. When you take a conscious approach to life, it becomes very joyful and beautiful. But when one forgets their consciousness, it happens that they lose sight of there absolute, unchanging self. You cannot be harmed because there is nothing to harm. So what are we afraid of?
You may continue to accuse me of denying physicality but I am simply making a statement. You are not the body. Anywhere in there did I deny it, or reject it, or look down upon it? No. I simply said, you are not it.



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 



By "seeing" I think you mean imagining. The imagination is very powerful indeed. I can fly in my imagination.



Its quite possible in some cases... There are also many people who take advantage of others with the claim that they see "spirits"... Most don't have that ability... but again some do see them... while fully awake

We can also see spirits in dreams as well... dreams are much more then just your subconscious playing tricks on you... but not always... Like you said... You can fly in your imagination... I can control my dreams...


I appreciate your honesty here. It is a rarity. But study of what may I ask?



I have no reason to lie... its pointless

I study everything I find... Im very interested in ancient texts... Its a hobby of mine

I've been over most of the major religions Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Gnosticism and Christianity... I've never really been interested in Islam because I know it stems from the OT... which is useless to me... and yes I've read the OT many many times... Great read... lots of garbage though


Though even after everything I've been over in the past 10 years... I am always drawn back to Jesus... and not just the biblical Jesus... Gnostic Jesus is amazing as well...

These days I usually just focus on Gnostic texts and the gospels... rarely a day goes by where I don't read something from those catagories






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