If You Are A Christian Freemason...

reply to post by EViLKoNCEPTz


So, everyone just ignores the fact that the oath says that it will keep secret the "secret arts" and the "mysteries"?

These days, what do Masons consider "secret arts" and "mysteries" to be?

Christians have no private associations and the temple doors are open

Kind of like the Catholic Church / Vatican? Or the Televangalists who suck the finances and the energies out of the blind followers?


The Lodge doors are also open...for those who seek our knowledge, traditions and brotherhood.

As a Companion of the York Rite, I have professed my Christian faith, however I suspect my faith differs from that of many other "Christians."

When you tap into some of the ancient texts (apochrypha, grimoires, Gnostic Gospels), you may uncover a Jesus much different than the One about whom you've been taught.

"That which is called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist, from the beginning of the human race until Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion which already existed began to be called Christianity."

--St. Augustin of Hippo, Retractions, (as quoted in "Jesus - The Explosive Story of the Lost 30 Years and the Ancient Mystery Religions, by Tricia McCannon).

Check out the Great White Brotherhood (white refers to purity, not race).

reply to post by network dude

Dear network dude,

I'm going to step away from the question of the oaths for a moment.

Being a Catholic myself, I know that isn't true, nor the true meaning of that ritual, but you are doing the same thing by speaking of things you don't have full knowledge of.

Fascinating sentence. I may very well have incomplete knowledge. I was only a Junior Warden and went Royal Arch. I still remember the skull used in an unusual way in Royal Arch. I left for the same reason as Lord Ripon.

Being a Catholic and a Mason at the same time is an interesting position to attempt to maintain.

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION ON MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.

This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance in due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.

Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 1981 pp. 240-241; English language edition of L’Osservatore Romano, 9 March 1981).

In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.

Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.


Joseph Card. RATZINGER
Prefect

+ Fr. Jerome Hamer, O.P.
Titular Archbishop of Lorium
Secretary
(Emphasis added)

www.vatican.va...

Mason? Ok. Practicing Catholic? Ok. Both? Sorry, can't happen.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by Carreau
Freemasonry makes no such claim. I could stop right there with your first lie, but I'll continue.

"A Christian Mason is not permitted to introduce his own peculiar opinions with regards to Christ's mediatorial office into the lodge." - Albert G. Mackey

Wait, I thought Freemasonry was built upon the foundation of highly religious Christian men? So, these wonderful Christian men can't even mention Jesus? I thought you were supposed to believe in the "Great Architect Of The Universe." Since Jesus is God come in the flesh, wouldn't Jesus have the position of GAOTU? Or is GAOTU just some pluralistic version of God so that every person, Christian or otherwise, has the same sort of God in the lodge? The fact is, the Christian God is not Allah or Judaism's God (as he is now). So, either you have a position where I'm wrong and Freemasonry doesn't view itself as superior (which it seems it does, since it replaces the one true God with this mythical GAOTU that is essentially whatever the mason wants it to be) but distorts what God is by combining Him with every other deity under the sun and bans the name and figure of Jesus from being even mentioned in the lodge, or it does view itself as superior through its pluralistic blasphemy.

Originally posted by Carreau
Not the anti-Christian you try to make him out to be now is he?

Manly P. Hall. Name sound familiar? Your brothers under the apron made him an honorary mason. Manly P. Hall never once denied Jesus had existed either, Manly often said how vital and eternal the role of Jesus is. However, like Manly P. Hall, not once does J. D. Buck ever indicate he feels that Christ is God or is the one true Lord and Savior. Not once. In fact, according to the masonicdictionary.com:

"Not a few felt that Dr. Buck was in some degree antagonistic to the Christian religion. Not so. He was profoundly religious, but his insight went deeper than dogmas, down to the primitive fires of faith that are forever burning, and to the permanent fountains of hope that forever flow. He knew that if all temples were swept away, all creeds lost, and all rites forgotten, the heroic, creative soul of man would rise radiant and new-born, uplifting new temples and dictating new sacred books. He saw that if the Christian records were destroyed, the spirit of Christ and his basic truths would abide, because they are a part of the order of the world. As we may read, in the introduction to his "Mystic Masonry," perhaps his most widely read book:"

Those "dogmas" referenced aren't just some floaty authoritative wishes bestowed upon the congregation of a church by a human authority, as is in the case in Roman Catholicism. "Dogmas" include the "Statements of Faith" in Protestantism, which are the basic and essential tenants of that church, which make or break it. We're talking about dogmas that, literally, cannot be negotiated without diverging into the worst kinds of relativism and bad doctrine imaginable. Those "dogmas" are things like: Jesus is the Son of God, made flesh through the Virgin Mary, who lived and died a death on the cross as a literal propitiation, was buried, raised three days later by the power of God, and ascended into Heaven in physical form.

Now, those basic dogmas? The dogmas that men like Manly P. Hall and J. D. Buck feel their insight are "deeper than"? Without those dogmas, friend, you don't have Christianity. Without those dogmas, you're left with a book that has some nice poetic language but beyond that, has no value to anybody.

Originally posted by Carreau
If you really had the best interests of Masons in mind you wouldn't lie about them or the brotherhood.

Literally everywhere I turn to find out more about Freemasonry, it disturbs me to see what you're doing. Nevermind that Manly P. Hall tells us that in a particular ceremony, the Freemason is literally worshiping the light of Lucifer. I'll leave that behind, even though I know I shouldn't. I'll even leave out the many other quotes from Albert Pike, considered to be one of the greatest Masons to have ever lived, which seem to indicate the antagonistic hostility towards Christianity within Freemasonry.

The fact remains: You're a member of a group whose symbols and ceremonies are pieced together from Kaballah and Greco-Roman mystery religions, you swear oaths, you yolk yourselves to every unbeliever who is also a member of your group, and you pluralize God by combining him with every other "supreme deity" that may be worshiped.

Now, if you REALLY want to break down my argument, tell me why these things are okay for a Christian to do, and I'll leave you all alone. Otherwise, you have a problem, and it's not with me, it's with Christ, who you claim to worship.

reply to post by Deetermined


They were originally their skill of stonework and building. As the church loosened it's grip more people became educated in those trades, though. And children of Mason's who didn't become part of the group learned the trades from their father's and shared them with other non Mason's. They were originally kept secret as a way to have some control over their destiny. It was to keep the church from killing all of them if they were discovered. The church wouldn't want to kill the only people who could build them churches and monuments. The original Mason's were slaves, forced to build temples. They wanted something they could call their own. Nowadays their "secret arts" and "mysteries" aren't so secret. The "mysteries" they spoke of was the fact that the church at the time was perverting the idea of God for political power. They believed God created all men to be free, not slaves. Hence the name Freemason.

Originally posted by Carreau
I feel you have serious doubts about your own faith and are projecting to reassure yourself. Kinda sad and I feel sorry for you

If you want to resort to ad hoc arguments in an attempt to paint me as somebody whose just "doubting my faith", you can. If that makes you feel better, it's alright by me. We all sometimes have doubts about our faith, but the one thing I cannot negotiate is Christ's power within my life.

And what I cannot negotiate is that what you and your brothers do behind closed doors is, when you get down to it, really none of my business. I can't stop you from doing what you do. It's not my place to do it.

But if I saw you running out into the middle of the road with a speeding bus coming your way, would it be awful of me to warn you to watch out? Because I wouldn't want you getting splattered across the grill of that bus. In the same way, all I can do is point out the questionable things you're adhering to, showing you that they're not in the very least Christian, and that you would be better off leaving and joining a good church.

Because I'll tell you one thing: Beyond the suggestions from people like Manly P. Hall that there is literal Lucifer worship going on in Freemasonry (I don't know if that's true or not, which is why I never really brought it up before), there's one thing that is obvious: You swear oaths, which Christ told you not to do. You yolk yourselves with unbelievers, which Christ told you not to do. You combine God with false gods, which Scripture told you not to do.

All I can do is warn you. I can't pull you out of the lodge and rip your apron off.

YOU have to do that.

Mason? Ok. Practicing Catholic? Ok. Both? Sorry, can't happen

reply to post by charles1952


You are not going back far enough for real information. You have to go back to the original source documents.

The Catholic Church and, for that matter, the Christian church from the 4th century to Martin Luther, dictated everything to this regard. They converted, jailed or exterminated entire civilizations who held beliefs that differed or challenged the church, including the Gnostics such as the Cathars, Bogomils, Manicheans, Paulicians...

Look up Giordano Bruno or Tommasso Campanella.

Masons (and other illuminated groups such as the Rosicrucians) are secret because they had to be back in the day when the Catholics were wiping everyone out. In the ancient times, the mystery schools were mystery because the power of the knowledge and experience was protected from falling into the wrong hands. Nowadays, it remains confiscated from falling into the RIGHT hands.

Seek it - it is there.

reply to post by EViLKoNCEPTz


So, in your view, the "mysteries" don't have anything to do with learning about ancient mystic religions and practices like capod2T appears to have learned through his group?

Originally posted by capod2t
Kind of like the Catholic Church / Vatican? Or the Televangalists who suck the finances and the energies out of the blind followers?

The Roman Catholic Church, Pentecostal, and Charismatic churches are all apostate churches that practice completely unbiblical, ungodly things. They value the opinions of men over the commands of God, not to mention many Televangelists practice what is known as the "prosperity doctrine", which is absolutely Satanic and abominable.

Originally posted by capod2t
When you tap into some of the ancient texts (apochrypha, grimoires, Gnostic Gospels), you may uncover a Jesus much different than the One about whom you've been taught.

And that's your problem right there. The apocrypha are not God inspired, they've been determined to be non-inspired books by multiple Jewish and Christian councils. Most of them are full of contradictions, whether contradicting themselves or other standard books of the Bible. As for Gnosticism, when you start relying on the dreams and trances of some Egyptian or Greek "Christian" rather than the actual apostles of Jesus, you will start delving into things that are so far from Christianity, that it's no wonder you're confused about your own faith. My Bible tells me Jesus was the Son of God. Gnosticism tells us that Jesus wasn't really God. No wait, it also says Jesus didn't die on the cross, it was Judas. No wait, it tells us that Judas didn't die on the cross and didn't commit suicide. No wait, it tells us that Jesus was fully God and that his humanly form was just an illusion. No wait...

Starting to see what I mean?

reply to post by Deetermined


The "ancient mystic religions" is that the Catholic Church and Christian Church aren't the only churches. Mason's were free to practice and discuss the religious beliefs of their choosing so long as they believed in one supreme being, a creator. They were free in their group to share their personal religious beliefs without fear of persecution.

reply to post by Deetermined


For the record, Masonry is quite biblical.

I am an inactive Catholic.

My knowledge and experience of the ancient mystery schools was accumulated on my own accord, outside of Masonry.

Fearing Mason's because you do not understand them is no different from fearing a man because of the color of his skin or religious beliefs. It's no different from bible thumping zealots fearing gays, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, and the number of other bigoted beliefs the far religious right still hold to this day. It makes you no different than an ignorant bigot or racist.

reply to post by capod2t

My knowledge and experience of the ancient mystery schools was accumulated on my own accord, outside of Masonry.

That's good to know. Based on the J.D. Buck's writing on "Mystic Masonry", I thought that this was something they were teaching inside the club, or appeared to be at one time.

And that's your problem right there. The apocrypha are not God inspired, they've been determined to be non-inspired books by multiple Jewish and Christian councils. Most of them are full of contradictions, whether contradicting themselves or other standard books of the Bible. As for Gnosticism, when you start relying on the dreams and trances of some Egyptian or Greek "Christian" rather than the actual apostles of Jesus, you will start delving into things that are so far from Christianity, that it's no wonder you're confused about your own faith. My Bible tells me Jesus was the Son of God. Gnosticism tells us that Jesus wasn't really God. No wait, it also says Jesus didn't die on the cross, it was Judas. No wait, it tells us that Judas didn't die on the cross and didn't commit suicide. No wait, it tells us that Jesus was fully God and that his humanly form was just an illusion. No wait...

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


Ok - let's break this down a section at a time.

First, you quoted my response to someone else, in which I was speaking directly to secrets and open doors.

I don't have a problem. I am quite content on my path. I seek not to change anyone else's "beliefs". Rather, I share my light.

Gnostic Gospels were omitted from the western accepted bible by MAN - Constantine. They were destroyed, buried, confiscated.

Contradictions? and there are none in the bible?

Much like the Gnostics, who were considered rebels because they would not accept being told what to believe, but rather sought to experience their faith in Christ and God, I seek God's heart in my own manner.

And I judge not those whose path is different.

I will, however, interject when I find someone is creating their own version of history.

Bless your heart and best to you, Brother.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


I once swore an oath to the Rosicrucian sect and though I have tried to keep my oath I have actually renounced the swearing but not the intention of it, Matthew 5:34
All you say of masonry can also be applied to the Rosicrucian sect.
The trap that these secret society's have fallen into is that they create a psychological maze designed to twist and indoctrinate there members with the promise of knowledge they claim to hold but in reality do not.
The Kabbala is only one and the Hermetica has also much to answer for as have the gnostic tradition's that gravitated into Christianity from the heathen religions around the 2nd to the 4th century's giving rise to heresy and leading there followers down such paths as gammatria and the idiogram's.
Even the Real and now extinct Templers whom I do have respect for fell into this trap that had pervaded the medieval mind and insinuated itself into the church, indeed there is a famous such carving attributed to the Templers with the words.

SATOR
AREPO
TENET
OPERA
ROTAS

This 5x5 grid is the very antithesis of the gospel which is to spread the word of god.

In translation it says PATOR NOSTRE AO (HOLY FATHER ALPHA AND OMEGA)

Sacred Geometry however does serve a ritual purpose as well as being aesthetically pleasing, the Temple of Solomon was based on the body of Jacob lying in repose and the two pillars were each one leg.

This was by no means a technique for control held only by these sects as it is still used today by many secret soceitys even the laughable and false church of scientology, and the catholic church did so by keeping the bible in latin when only the initiated could speak this language but from amongst there own an evangelical saint arose called Martin Luther, though it led to war and all that died fighting that war did so as innocents believing they served god.

Christ said the Truth shall set you FREE.
I am not anti catholic as the church of which I her speak is one of the past and I am myself a Marionite Christian.

Gnosticism is based on the Greek for knowledge or Gnosis but all Christians are essentially Gnostics as we seek understanding and indeed the very structure of the new testament is designed to make you question and try to come to know god and come closer but the form of Gnosticism of which I and you are critical is the 'Secret knowledge' rather than the hidden knowledge variety, All things done in secret shall be revealed and every secret shall be shouted from the rooftops.

Come on then dragon's reveal your secrets and prove you are Christian, Confess to the world.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

Dear FollowTheWhiteRabbit,

I started watching the first of your linked videos, John McArthur, I believe. In the first few minutes he professed shock at the idea that Catholics could be Christians, and said of the Catholic Church:

"It conducts a horrendous exaltation of Mary above Christ and even above God."

Well, what more is there to say? It's a flase statement. That's not what Catholics do. If he doesn't understand Catholicism, it's unfortunate that he condemns it. I will listen to him when he learns about the subject on which he is speaking.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


All fears are bred of ignorance. If you understand that which you fear there is nothing more to fear.

Originally posted by capod2t
I don't have a problem. I am quite content on my path. I seek not to change anyone else's "beliefs". Rather, I share my light.

What light do you have to share? Because you certainly won't find it in some Gnostic dreamer's dreams that were rejected multiple times by multiple councils as uninspired.

Originally posted by capod2t
Gnostic Gospels were omitted from the western accepted bible by MAN - Constantine. They were destroyed, buried, confiscated.

I think you're confused about how we got the Bible. The canon of the Old Testament was determined through the Council of Jamnia (most likely). The first official canon of the Bible is what we got from the Muratorian Canon fragment. Later, the Council of Laodicea determined the Bible with some of the then-present apocrypha would make up the canon. The The Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) made the canon the authoritative canon. Constantine put the Council of Nicea together, yes. But he had no real power in determining what books would be kept and what books would be rejected. That job was relocated to 250–318 well studied men. This council had nothing to do with what the canon would be. This council debated the issue of the nature of God the Son and his relationship to God the Father, the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicaea, settling the calculation of the date of Easter, and promulgation of early canon law.

reply to post by charles1952


They don't?

The recognition of the Roman Catholic church is that: Not only was Mary still a virgin by the end of her life (despite what we know that Mary had other children beyond the children she inherited from Joseph's first marriage), but that she didn't die by any means, but was raised into Heaven in physical form like Jesus.

The idea in Catholicism is, simply put: Jesus is hard hearted, and the only one that can soften His heart is His mother. So, you pray to Mary, who will talk to Jesus, who will talk to God.

It's a middle man concept that is completely ridiculous. Added onto that that Catholics have to ask forgiveness from priests. And on top of that, the fact that there are even "priests" beyond the Christians to begin with. All Christians are priests, and there are no fathers except for our Father in Heaven.

Catholics pray to not just Mary, but Saints as well. Christians should not pray to anybody but God. Praying to dead people who won't hear your prayers is as pointless as asking forgiveness from a human man.

I, nor MacArthur, or any other preacher who speaks out against Roman Catholicism, hates Catholics or priests or even the pope. No, but there are things going on in that church, that have been going on for a long, long time that are radically unbiblical and unchristian. I'm not better than any Catholic when you get down to it, but I know according to God's Word what way is right, and it isn't the Roman Catholic way.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


Listen, Brother, I commend you on the strength of your faith.

What I find most unfortunate is the bullyesque attitude and ram-down-your-throat preaching of the most confined, restricted man-made doctrine and dogma.

When I am passionately interested in a topic, I grab everything I can get my hands on, study it, consider it, and process it, and make a decision as to what resonates in my heart.

If I may, in the most friendliest manner, recommend you to NOT take the word of man as gospel, but rather seek God's heart on your own.

Cro-maat.