The NSA is in so much trouble...and here is an example of how.

Okay, THIS had never occured to me. It takes a clever and very determined defense attorney to come up with something like this.

Let me lay out the case. This guy is on trial for the robbery of armored cars in what sounds like a robbery ring. It ended with the murder of a Brinks guard on one of the heists. Now, he didn't kill the guard but the Government's case is that he was the mastermind and therefore, responsible by that theory of the crime. With me so far? Good.

The Government also contends that Cell Phone records, properly obtained during the course of the Robbery/Murder Investigation tie him to the different crimes and show his role as the leader of the crime ring. Hence...his current trial for far more than just armed robbery. Cell phone records... Yes... What could possibly go wrong? Oh...Silly Silly Government... You see, they are missing some. Just a few, but the VERY WRONG few to be missing, apparently and according to the Defense in the case.

So what happens? Oh. This is RICH.

Prosecutors claimed they were missing records of calls to and from two of Brown's telephones before Sept. 1, 2010. They claimed Brown's service provider, MetroPCS, no longer had the records. Prosecution relied on Moss's and other co-conspirators' cell phone records to try to prove Brown's involvement in the armed robberies.

But Marshall Dore Louis, the Miami attorney representing Brown, filed a motion to compel production of records, which he claims may show Brown was not involved in a July 2010 robbery attempt.

The NSA surveillance program that was exposed this month proves that the government can get data on Brown's calls, the attorney says in his motion to compel.

Uh Oh...... lol.... It sure does, doesn't it? They have access..huh? Just came out..didn't it? Errr... OOOPS... Now this wouldn't mean anything if the Courts and this Judge were sympathetic to the Government ..but? (drum roll)

U.S. District Judge Robin Rosenbaum ordered the government to respond to Brown's motion, and said the court would determine whether Brown's surveillance was lawfully authorized and conducted.
The U.S. attorney general may file an affidavit if he feels that disclosure or a hearing would harm national security interests, according to Judge Rosenbaum's June 10 order. The judge gave the government two days to produce the records.

"The Court regrets the short deadline for compliance but notes that the evidence that defendant Brown seeks pertains to a trial that has been underway since May 31, 2013, and any order requiring the production of any materials sought would become meaningless if such items were not produced in sufficient time for the defense to use them in its case," the judge wrote.

(Source: Courthouse News)

Nyack Nyack Nyack...

Uncle Sammy can stick that in his corn cob pipe and toke on it awhile. One has now set the pattern...Oh goodness... HOW many other cases involve the same type of evidence? Or... DID in past convictions? Oh Good Lordy..I had NEVER thought about this aspect. Not even a passing thought.

This is the stuff nightmares are made of for prosecutors and I'll bet the liquor stores ran out of stock around courthouses tonight!

That is Awesome Sauce!

I have to say, I doubt this would fly, because it would set the precedent for the NSA to be called as a witness and subpoenaed to just about every case that deals with digital / surveillance evidence of any kind. It would be huge.

They would shut down the NSA and re-brand it as something else before they would allow this to happen, but I LOVE the thought of this and will sleep better tonight knowing that there are some people out there in places of power that would love to stick it to the man.

~Namaste

I am dying to know if and how the government responded. I searched around and only found a couple of stories that basically relate the same one in your OP.

Not to be a kill-joy or anything but I bet they squirm out. If they had two days to produce the records, there should have been at least some kind of response to the court.

I had read this story the other day.. It did strike me as an amazing defense angle. I hope the NSA produces the records and really sheds light on an already neon topic. I doubt that would happen, but I can still hope.

They are a witness nonetheless. I am not really into litigation, and don't really care, but hey.. If you see something, say something. Isn't that the motto? Let's see if the NSA can live up to it. Poor naïve bastards.. See what happens when you want to know everything about the world? The world calls on you for insight. If you can't lend insight, then what use are you? I don't even know what outcome to hope for.

The tricky bastards will probably try to plead the fifth while denying existence of the fourth...

Please fuel our fire.

Boba

reply to post by GrantedBail


Well, I'll be damned. He may very well have gotten what he wanted. This is headed with today's filing date and it's a motion to appoint someone capable of discussing and reviewing State Classified Information with regard to his motion compelling the NSA to produce phone records through the Court.

Motion to Appoint CIPA

Also, I don't know if you clicked to original link in the article for the main filings. I normally don't on these because Courthouse News is a pay service for most of the good stuff behind the story listings. This inline link went through for original filing papers though. That isn't the important part. Look at the END of the filing on this next link.

Original Filing Papers and Cell Phone Trace Reports Via FBI Records

That is almost more valuable than anything else for curiosity. Now we see what they DO get vs. what TV shows for direction and arc of area the user must have been in during the trace. Hmmmmmm......

Originally posted by GrantedBail
I am dying to know if and how the government responded. I searched around and only found a couple of stories that basically relate the same one in your OP.

Not to be a kill-joy or anything but I bet they squirm out. If they had two days to produce the records, there should have been at least some kind of response to the court.

That's about the way I see it. Indeed they could easily claim they didn't collect any data that day; or declined to collect that particular data. Who's to say otherwise? More likely, though, I think they'll pull the old "National Security" chestnut. And/or maybe buy out or threaten the judge on the downlow. Who knows anymore--maybe it's just the judge's way of putting a hand out for a retirement package?

I think this is about to become a very bad thing. Yeah, the first time it will be used in a person's defense to make this a nice, feel good story to help justify the NSA. Now its precedent for the judicial process. Shortly total open disclosure of everything will be coming out and be accepted because NSA data can and will be used in court. They'll probably think of a few dozen more ideas why we should all just accept big brother before they can sway to making it law.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Now that everyone on the Planet knows that the Government (aka NSA ) has all of these phone records, is any local government allowed to tap into that as a resource for for evidence in cases?

It is really hysterical, to me, but that I think we are going to see more reverberations and repercussions come from this whole mess. Like I have said before They are all Steppin' and Fetchin', Runnin' and Screamin'' like their asses are on fire and their heads are catchin'. The whole mess is snowballing and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

I personally applaud Mr. Snowden for Causing a Wreck of Epic Proportions. I can honestly say that his name is not going to be forgotten anytime soon.

Wrabbit, thanks for this topic. Very intriguing. I personally don't know what to make of all this, I hope to see a lot of interesting discussion.

Something deep down isn't settling right with me. I guess I'm going to have to swallow the fact there is no escaping surveillance and it will only increase.

I can see it now... in 40 years I'll be called into court and they'll already have pulled up a detailed record spanning back to my adolescence, containing every call, text, movement, and keystroke I ever made...

It's kinda scary, no longer can we live our lives care free. Now we have to understand every single decision we make WILL follow us until our death.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Great find Wrabbit.

What I found interesting is that the Fed lawyers are specifying who they want to be assigned as the CISO (from the filing in your first link):

To assist the Court and court personnel in handling any motions, pleadings and implementing anyorders relating to the CIPA proceedings, the government requests that the Court designate Daniel O.Hartenstein as the CISO for this case, to perform the duties and responsibilities prescribed for CISO’s inthe Security Procedures promulgated by the Chief Justice.The government further requests that the Court designate the following persons as AlternateCISO, to serve in the event Mr. Hartenstine is unavailable: Jennifer H. Campbell, Branden M. Forsgren,Christine E. Gunning, Joan B. Kennedy, Michael P. Macisso, Maura L. Peterson, Carli V. Rodriquez-Feo,Harry J. Rucker, and W. Scooter Slade.

It may not mean anything and these could be people that are in and close to this case in Florida but as you have most likely ascertained by now, I am suspicious quite often.

Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Surely the NSA will just comply, right?

I think they are perfectly content playing nanny. In fact, I think that's the point of the program.

Nice move by the defense attorney. She is gonna save her client many years in prison this way.

ETA: in fact, I think they may be just itchin' to get involved with something like this. As mentioned above, they will have set precedent to use this surveillance in court. Which may spell bad news down the road.

reply to post by JayinAR


What makes it a big deal is that electronic records by phone trace or location data are used in countless cases every year across the nation. Countless convictions.

What happens when the world learns a lab tech, for instance, was dirty but only after the lab tech worked thousands of cases? Well.. Defense attorneys for each and every last case in question look over their own details to see if, somewhere in there, an appeal may hide to be refiled and run through the system again.

This opens a whole new line of appeal for old cases (New data sources not previously known to exist) and as this case shows, opens a solid location for current cases. The fact what the NSA has likely won't change anything on 99% of those cases, doesn't matter. Appeals and criminal courts are DEFINED by the technicality for it's own sake and to run billable hours to the attorney's chasing it down.

This could well start a small avalanche of cases across the entire nation, trying to exploit the wet dream of new sources for exculpatory evidence to criminal defense teams. Oh...talk about unintended consequences.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Ok. I see the point, but that's a good thing, right?

ETA: if convicts suddenly have new grounds for appeals, they need to exhaust those means. If they have a case.

As far as the NSA goes, it isn't too big a deal to them. Just a few key strokes and an email.

reply to post by JayinAR


Oh yes, it's a good thing for us! It's the never ending story of doom on prosecutors who will be cursing the NSA to the day many of them die if this gains any traction and isn't shut down real quick. You know ....The Judge here was the place for that to happen though..and the Judge said 'Hey, you're right Mr. Defense attorney! Lets see what those people have been hiding! )

I'm not sure if one case makes for a genie too far out of the bottle to stuff back in? (We can hope it does) If it goes into a second case where the Court is sympathetic though? lol........ Popcorn! Get your Popcorn right here for the show! I'll make 1 bucket for $5 and two for $7. Much better than any movie concession. (wicked grin)

This could be quite the show for a loooong time to come. Careful what you collect, is what I think the Government's lesson needs to be from this.Others may learn of it and the Law is a funny thing about that. It doesn't care about politics....just evidence. What they have is the Pacific Ocean of evidence.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I honestly think that the NSA is gonna be forced to scale back the program. It is unmanagable, IMO. The solution should be that they will purge data after three months or so.

Or, well, they could just tell us that is what they are doing.

And I guess unmanagable isn't something that concerns big government. Their solution is to add yet another layer to the onion.
Maybe the NSA needs an internal oversight committee.

ETA: and if they already have one, well by God they need another.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000
good try Mr defense Attorney but in the name of ... yep you guessed it... "National Defense" take's president from your link and the Key words used

The U.S. attorney general may file an affidavit if he feels that disclosure or a hearing would harm national security interests, according to Judge Rosenbaum's June 10 order. The judge gave the government two days to produce the records.

now I do not know if the US attorney general will use that or not, but my thinking is he willl.

reply to post by bekod


The case motion that forms the Op was filed in the beginning of the month. That 2 days came and went without such a reply from the Attorney General.He opted not to, apparently. That's where the second note I added with additional links shows the motion filed yesterday in this case for now appointing someone who can legally handle the material they are now producing.

It appears this is going somewhere...and thanks to Grantedbail for encouraging me to dig deeper than I'd first intended. I hadn't planned to go digging original court paperwork that was filed on this, but just offering the story as a discussion point to start with. After she pushed a little and I dug a little, the truth seems even more encouraging for the public interest than it first appeared,

They are not in "trouble". Just about every politician or alphabet agency is in "trouble" and not a damn thing is ever or will ever be done about it.


Gs

Great Thread...S&F

My only thought is...

What a tangled web we weave.

Originally posted by GermanShep
They are not in "trouble". Just about every politician or alphabet agency is in "trouble" and not a damn thing is ever or will ever be done about it.


Gs

Although Wrabbit has a fantastic find there, the bottom line is that they have all the power in a lawless nation and this is a lawless nation since the laws do not apply to the powerful.