serious question for Christians

reply to post by ElohimJD


This is a Jehovah's witness philosophy and belief he is describing. It is not scripturally supported whatsoever. It is true there is a 144,000, but it is in regards to Jews during the last days after the rapture. This belief Elohim is describing in his post [which if it is not Jehovah's witness religion, it has its ties there] is very contrary to the teachings of Christ.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Sorry Mr. Jehovah's witness, I know you you guys like the idea of being super special and all, but Jesus is for everyone who accepts Him, and yes, that means there will be much more in heaven than 144,000.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Rapha

reply to post by Akragon

 

Im not a "christian" but have you noticed only people with preexisting notions of "hell" ever experience these OOB trips to said firey pit?

These people, (in)famous world leaders like Stalin found out that Heaven and Hell exists when it was too late. Stalin had a temper tantrum and waved his fist at the ceiling. Silly little man.

www.pdegraaf.com...

Hell doesn't exist... Its nothing more then a mythological fear tactic used to control the populous

With ignorant sentences like this, this is why ATS is not on the NWO's hit-list as mentioned on BeforeItsNews.

Lol... Hell can't co-exist with the idea of a loving merciful creator...

Its simple logic... A loving father would not torture his children...

Only humans would create such mythological nonsense

Kinda like how we used to burn witches at the steak...

edit on 18-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

You are totally wrong.. God does not torture his children, his children, ( some of them) torture themselves by rebelling, and not obeying Him. You send yourself to hell, or not, by the PATH YOU CHOOSE. Remember freewill? it is your choice what path you take..
You are just making up your own destiny in your mind, by using your own fallible and totally naïve personal value system... Sad but hilarious at the same time...

You are not God, but you are acting like you are, by using your own value system to judge yourself and pardon yourself with those flawed values.. Most people do this, so don't let it bother you too much..

If hearing this makes you mad, it is because of self pride and the desire to do everything by yourself without help from a higher power, and that is totally impossible.. 95% of the world is in this same boat, so we all have a lot of company in our foolishness. This doesn't make me feel any better though..

Originally posted by Akragon


Lol... Hell can't co-exist with the idea of a loving merciful creator...

Its simple logic... A loving father would not torture his children...

Only humans would create such mythological nonsense

Kinda like how we used to burn witches at the steak...

edit on 18-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Hell can't NOT exist with the idea of a malevolent rebellious entity opposed to all that is good....
A loving father knows what justice is...He knows fairness....This is why it's said, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Or maybe Ezekiel 33:11 is more your style.... "Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'"

Or perhaps John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."....

A Father LOVES his children...even those that would rebel against Him....

A2D

People walk by faith, not sight.

The Bible book Hebrews, chapter 11 has something to say about faith. All the men mentioned in the question, pre-Jesus, walked in faith and obeyed God as far as they could. They died in faith..

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

They saw the promises afar off.

So the question of where did they go after that? I think they kept walking. It's appointed for men to die, but those people could have had the faith to see thousands of years ahead and still believe, and then being transformed from being men into sons of God. They cut through time all the way to the end. The hell part, they skipped it.

That video about the minutes in hell, it's disappointing and a really odd way to turn a profit in books.

By the way, it irks me to see the line "discuss" because it reminds me of all the atheist questions where they throw debate chum into the water to see the fish go crazy, like it's entertainment, detached. Have some investment in spiritual quests.

Very briefly, to the OP:

Paul teaches us in Romans that we are justified through faith. By referring us back to Abraham and consequently Genesis, we see that Moses says this of Abram(Genesis 15:5-6):

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if you be able to number them: and he said to him, So shall your seed be. 6.And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

He believed in the LORD....keyphrase. They were saved by faith. Faith in God and His plan for His people....

(there's more to it than that honestly, but I really need to get to bed. Sorry for the brevity.)

it's also imperative you understand what faith is....Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

All those before Christ that exhibited faith were redeemed by that faith....Christ is the pinnacle of faith...the plan.... Hope this helps

Solid question btw
A2D

reply to post by jammybunn


When Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and anybody else in the B.C. times made an animal sacrifice, they knew that it was a shadow of the things to come. They understood that the shedding of that animal's blood represented the shedding of the blood of the coming Savior.

When they would sacrifice an animal, they would put their hand on its head and confess all their sins to God. That was symbolizing that they professed their faith in the ability of the Messiah to take away the sins of the world. It was all professions of faith and trust in the fact that someday the Savior would come. By professing their faith in the things to come, it was accepted by God in the way He accepts us today when we accept His Son as our Lord and Savior.

When Jesus died on the cross, a great earthquake happened. At the same time, the giant, very thick curtain which Moses had ordered be made, was ripped right in half as a high priest was about to sacrifice a lamb. The ultimate Sacrifice had given up His life, using His own blood to cleanse the sins of every person who ever had and ever will live. From that point on, animal sacrifices were meaningless.

reply to post by ElohimJD


Brother, or sister,

The 144,000 are the people who are alive and are changed in the twinkling of an eye when the Eastern sky splits when Jesus returns. The book of Revelation says they will sing a new song, that nobody could ever know except the 144,000.

This "song" that only they will know is something that is totally unique, that no other group of people ever have or will ever be able to experience. What is this song? The song represents the fact that they will see the wicked killed by the brightness of the coming of Christ. At that same time, they will also see their friends and loved ones resurrected. And, they will be some of the very few people in the history of this world who did not experience death. Instead, they will be translated into their eternal, immortal bodies in an instant.

The 144,000 are not the only people who will make it to Heaven. They are a unique group of people among the billions who will make it to Heaven. They are unique because they will experience something that nobody ever has, or ever will experience throughout the entire universe.

reply to post by honested3


Actually, I thought maybe it was a Seventh Day Adventist teaching.

Lots of strange responses and rabbit trails, but anyways read the account in Luke 16:19. Jesus gives us a glimpse of the pre-cross afterlife.

By the way, Bill Weis and Mary K Baxter are lying charlatans. Their depiction of hell isn't even Biblical, it's as if they read Dante's inferno, mixed it with catholic fairy tale and added a bit of Hollywood. They make it out like it is some prison system ran by demons? The only demons there presently are under punnishment themselves and are chained up (as indicated by the Bible) The Bible is descriptive enough concerning hell's conditions, and there is no point for them to be given a "guided" tour so that we would believe (cause the Bible is insufficient)

A New Covenant

Jeremiah 31.
31Behold, the days come, said the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband to them, said the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. …


Mark 14:24 "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

The last super was a Passover supper in remembrance of the blood of the lamb that was painted on the door posts of the Israelites to save their firstborn sons in Egypt . Four cups are drunk during this feast, Jesus took up the third cup ( the cup of redemption) wich represented the blood of the lamb and proclaimed that it was HIS blood and we were now to do this in rememberence of HIM. The fourth cup (the cup of hope) will be drunk in heaven ( I will take you for my people and I will be your God) the fourth cup was not drunk during the last supper.


2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 8:8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."
Hebrews 10:17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

Deuteronomy 29:14 I am making this covenant, with its oath, not only with you

Isaiah 59:21 "As for me, this is my covenant with them," says the LORD. "My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants--from this time on and forever," says the LORD.

Jeremiah 32:40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

Jeremiah 33:14 "'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah.

So there you have it from the horses mouth so to speak. Two covenants, one old one new. The old was the law and the sacrifice of an unblemished lamb in a reflection of what was to come in the future. The new was through the sacrifice of an unblemished man who came not to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfil them. The only man that ever lived who was able to keep all of the laws. Unblemished he was sacrificed and the new covenant was given through his blood. He died and rose from death physically as a reflection of the spiritual death and spiritual resurrection believers have to go through in order that the law ( the word, Jesus, through the Holy Spirit ) can be placed within them.


John
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. …

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

P.S. I don't give a crap what anyone wants to believe or doesn't believe. Either Jesus was a complete nutter who thought he was God therefor Christianity is based on a lie and counts for nothing. Or he was exactly who he said he was. In which case we better hope he was a nutter!!!

Originally posted by halfoldman

One was that by animal sacrifice (and an odd human, but that's another story)

edit on 18-6-2013 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

Oh please, do tell

Originally posted by jeramie
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

Brother, or sister,

The 144,000 are the people who are alive and are changed in the twinkling of an eye when the Eastern sky splits when Jesus returns. The book of Revelation says they will sing a new song, that nobody could ever know except the 144,000.

This "song" that only they will know is something that is totally unique, that no other group of people ever have or will ever be able to experience. What is this song? The song represents the fact that they will see the wicked killed by the brightness of the coming of Christ. At that same time, they will also see their friends and loved ones resurrected. And, they will be some of the very few people in the history of this world who did not experience death. Instead, they will be translated into their eternal, immortal bodies in an instant.

The 144,000 are not the only people who will make it to Heaven. They are a unique group of people among the billions who will make it to Heaven. They are unique because they will experience something that nobody ever has, or ever will experience throughout the entire universe.

edit on 19-6-2013 by jeramie because: (no reason given)

and they are Jews made up from the twelve tribes of Israel, not Jehovah witnesses, as some believe and want others to think

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

In order to have a second death, you must live a second life.

I hate to break this to you, but the first death is the death of the body and the second death is the death of the soul, depending on how judgement goes after the death of the body.

Matthew 10:28

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In this current age, you are free to determine your own interpretation of scripture.

All that have ever been born of man will die a first physical death (includeing Jesus Christ), God's people called out of this present age are not to fear that first death, but rather the second death (destruction of body and soul in ghenna), which is punishment for all who, after being given the perfect personally prooven experience regarding "their way" (their interpretation) is "right" and God's way (God's interpretation) is "wrong".

That is the true understanding of your quoted scripture, as revealed through the office of an apostle of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

God's people know the truth of this beautiful scripture. In time all mankind will as well, in that way only can judgement be just in the human experience of a second life (either eternal life in Elohim, or death of body and soul in ghenna).

You are not "born again" until you are born again of spirit (receive a spiritual body), currently only Jesus Christ has been "born again" in spirit. 144,000 will be "born again" on Pentecost when Jesus Christ returns. All mankind that chooses to foresake "their way" and learn to practice "God's way" during their second life will be "born again" at that time.

God's people fight there physical nature everyday, baptism serves as a reminder of the honest desire for God's people to "kill the old self", or "put to death" your carnality. This is valuable and beautiful scriptures used to enforce that daily battle over self. But the understanding of putting to death your carnality so you can be "born again" is terribly misunderstood by the whole of traditional christianity in spirit and in truth.

Again, you are free to determine for yourself what is "right and "wrong". I am not here to convince any of anything, that is not my role in service to Almighty God, I am a student. I only answer questions asked in the proper attitude to help some that might be interrested to learning God's way of thinking, but to really believe what I am revealing requires God's spirit working in the readers mind to bring them the understanding of these words.

I do not do the work. God does. I respect your individual mind and the freedom it has in this age to believe as it does.

God Bless,

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

I could understand what you were saying if everyone was brought back during the Millennial period, but the Bible says that some won't be raised back to life until after it's over for final judgement.

This is correct.

Those individuals were in God's church during this age. Were called of God, learned his ways, and gave up the fight, returned to carnal thinking, foresook their calling and became "anti-christ" (against the work of Jesus Christ). Only those in the Body of Christ know the work of Christ and can therefore become "antichrist". A mind cannot be against what it does not know, mankind does not know Christ in this age as they think they do, by design.

The very few in number that became "anti-christ" did so while under judgment in THIS AGE. Only those called out of this age and into the Body of Christ/Church of God for a purpose have entered into judgement at this time, God can justly judge the mind of one He called and therefore God knows that mind will never accept God's way of thinking over their own, they made the choice to enter into this judgment, and they made the choice to turn away from and against what is true.

Mankind as a whole has not yet entered into judgement, for mankind does not know God therefore the judgement regarding the choice to live by God's laws would be unjust if the law was unknown (the point of this OP). God is a just God and the time of judgment is in the Great White Thrown, after the 1000 years have finished, when they receive the blessing of a second physical life, in the hopes of being "born again" as immortal spirit beings in Elohim.

God Bless,

Originally posted by honested3
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

This is a Jehovah's witness philosophy and belief he is describing. It is not scripturally supported whatsoever. It is true there is a 144,000, but it is in regards to Jews during the last days after the rapture. This belief Elohim is describing in his post [which if it is not Jehovah's witness religion, it has its ties there] is very contrary to the teachings of Christ.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Sorry Mr. Jehovah's witness, I know you you guys like the idea of being super special and all, but Jesus is for everyone who accepts Him, and yes, that means there will be much more in heaven than 144,000.

I have never had anything to do with JW. You falsely assume my faith in gross error, to your own shortcoming.

I am in the Church (called out ones) of (belonging to) God. The JW are in error in several areas. So are traditional christians who think they can speak for another man's faith.

I keep the laws of God, I keep the 7th day weekly Sabbath as commanded forever as a sign of who God's people are, I keep the day Jesus Christ kept Holy for His father. I keep the 7 annual Holy Days commanded by God to be keep forever and the ones Jesus Christ kept and fulfilled in his life and death. I believe in One God, not a trinity of gods, One God as Jesus Christ taught; God's Holy Spirit is His mind (spirit = mind) it works in those called out ones to mold and fashion His way of thinking in the human mind.

None of these core scriptoral truths do the JW keep, and neither do professing christians, even though Jesus Christ lived them while living a perfect life on Earth.

______________________________

Now that you know what I believe we can leave this JW stuff behind us.

The scripture you quoted perfectly fits and enforces the truths God has given, in your second life (when you are judged) it will apply to all the world. God has a plan, all will be revealed and he will be glorified.

God Bless,

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
Very briefly, to the OP:

Paul teaches us in Romans that we are justified through faith. By referring us back to Abraham and consequently Genesis, we see that Moses says this of Abram(Genesis 15:5-6):

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if you be able to number them: and he said to him, So shall your seed be. 6.And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

He believed in the LORD....keyphrase. They were saved by faith. Faith in God and His plan for His people....

(there's more to it than that honestly, but I really need to get to bed. Sorry for the brevity.)

it's also imperative you understand what faith is....Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

All those before Christ that exhibited faith were redeemed by that faith....Christ is the pinnacle of faith...the plan.... Hope this helps

Solid question btw
A2D

edit on 19-6-2013 by Agree2Disagree because: (no reason given)

Exceptional post sir!

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD


I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. How does this statement tie to your earlier statement below?

After the 1000 years have finished, all 12+ billion human beings that have lived and died in this age not knowing God's truth or learning God's ways, will be given a second physical life to live when all is revealed in perfection!

In essence, are you trying to say that 144,000 people will be living during the Millennium and that everyone else will be coming back to life on earth to live again after it's over?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by honested3

 

Actually, I thought maybe it was a Seventh Day Adventist teaching.

This is closer to the truth, as the Church of God and SDA, if you go far enough back in time, were believed to be one group. The story is the SDA split off in the 1800s because they wanted to keep Christmas like the rest of mankind, and denied the Holy Days.

I am not SDA however I am in the Church of God, created on Pentecost 31AD by the receiving of the Holy Spirit in the apostles.

God Bless,

Originally posted by borntowatch

and they are Jews made up from the twelve tribes of Israel, not Jehovah witnesses, as some believe and want others to think

They are spiritual jews (think like christ) having not been defied by women (false religious teachings) who received the inheiritance promised to those who died in faith (whether dead for 4000 years i.e. Noah, or still alive today i.e. those in the Church of God that were sealed on the Feast of Trumpets 2008; I am not one of these).

They are certainly NOT JW.

God Bless,