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This whole Snowden affair is completely out of hand

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posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 04:00 AM
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Take it for what you will... I will be accused of planting dis-information and the what not... as someone who has served their country for many years as military and and a government employee.....

If you think for one moment that every major country on this planet of ours does not spy on its own citizens and foreign nationals.. you are living in a fantasy world my friends....

Russia, China, Isreal, USA, UK are the biggest players..... would they stoop to the lowest level to gain information that would further their interests???? To quote my very least favorite politician..."You Betcha".

It's a fact of life people... deal with it......how you choose to deal with it is up to you.

I can honestly say that in my career of both military and civilian government service, I have never seen anything that would believe me to think that anything nefarious is going on.... I have held some of the highest clearances you can get....

Not sure where to post this so Mod's can move at will

Pretty much like alien bodies and everything else... if there was any credible evidence..... people will talk and it will become known....

You cannot keep major secrets.... people talk... its human nature.

If Mr. Snowden is correct and he was able to bypass so many internal checks that I know for a fact exist.... then the system has a major flaw which needs to be corrected and I assure it already has been or will soon be fixed.

My two cents..... I have on my super duper flame proof under-roo's....

edit on 18-6-2013 by RickinVa because: Unsure of correct posting area




posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 04:33 AM
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well, my mommy always taught me that lies are bad.

that may sound juvenile, but I think that shame and the avoidance of shame is the most powerful motivating factor in the human psyche. it is a poison to the soul, makes life not worth living, makes a prominent appearance in the Eden creation myth, and is a dirty nasty trick that our mothers were trying to keep us from getting trapped in.

perhaps the fostering of shame is not the purpose of such broad scale surveillance, but it is undoubtedly the result. you better mind your P's and Q's you naughty little children.

for anyone to rationalize it as "reality, deal with it" is abhorrent.

we will deal with it by standing up and making it end.



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 04:49 AM
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Originally posted by RickinVa
(snip)
Russia, China, Isreal, USA, UK are the biggest players..... would they stoop to the lowest level to gain information that would further their interests???? To quote my very least favorite politician..."You Betcha".

It's a fact of life people... deal with it......how you choose to deal with it is up to you.

I can honestly say that in my career of both military and civilian government service, I have never seen anything that would believe me to think that anything nefarious is going on.... (snip)

edit on 18-6-2013 by RickinVa because: Unsure of correct posting area


I see Snowden's view. What I feel Snowden and I have in common is we are technologists.

The real issue with these "Its how it is" posts is that they come with this sense of "that's how it has always been" that's simply not the case. 40 years ago this kind of surveillance wasn't happening. Not due to lack of threat from the Soviets, but because the infrastructure simply didn't exist to monitor the communications of all Americans, to record every call, scan every letter. It was highly targeted. The technology has existed for decades to screen every email looking for certain keywords, and now having computers screen telephone conversations for phrases is feasible as well. And the capabilities keep growing and growing. THIS is what Snowden means when he says "infrastructure of oppression." Its the combination of anything goes policy, which an ever expanding technological capability.

So when you say governments would stoop to the lowest level to gain information, your missing the issue: the lowest level keeps sinking, due to technology. Each decade builds the infrastructure for a lower and more inescapable canto of tyranny. The future? Well, I heard the military talking about the 6th theater (5th being cyber) of warfare as being the mind. We're looking at an age where the lowest level is self replicating nano-technology that comes in through your pours and grows tendrils throughout your nervous system to get information or control us. In some decades, that will be the lowest level our governments sink to in order to keep us "safe", and protect our "freedom". And in more time, humans will eventually just be useless eaters...Real power will be in hybrid biological/cybernetic artificial intelligences, demanding more and more autonomy to gain the competitive edge, without being weight down by our trivial human concerns. THERE IS NO ROCK BOTTOM HERE, the road just goes down and down and down.

And honestly, if you've never seen anything nefarious you've not been paying attention. In my experience, government workers have for the most part conducted themselves morally. However, the structure of the government is revolving door: most of the governments real power is distributed out to networks of private corporations, which is where the action is. This ambiguous definition of being both a company and part of the government leads to selective applications of conduct. Businesses sell, they make deals. They work influence. Its how it is. Public servants serve the public. If you can selectively decide which one you're going to be when you wake up in the morning, that leads a lot of room for questionable conduct.



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 05:11 AM
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reply to post by RickinVa
 



It's a fact of life people... deal with it...

Oh we are dealing with it, and dealing with it doesn't mean sitting back and doing nothing.



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 05:23 AM
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reply to post by tridentblue
 


A first class reply



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 05:37 AM
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Originally posted by RickinVa
If you think for one moment that every major country on this planet of ours does not spy on its own citizens and foreign nationals.. you are living in a fantasy world my friends....


No government has had the capability to spy on all citizens until very recently. What do you really think the new NSA building in Utah is for?
You are correct that this kind of mass surveillance of citizens has been attempted before, on a limited scale. Most notably Soviet Russia, North Korea, Iran, China, Nazi Germany... you see a pattern here?

But, even those were limited in their scope to include only recognized "dissidents" and their colleagues, or people considered to be a threat to the leadership class.

The mass monitoring of all free citizens is the most extreme example of this the world has ever seen, there is absolutely no excuse for the scope of this operation in a democratic nation, none at all, whether other countries have attempted it or not.


Originally posted by RickinVa
Russia, China, Isreal, USA, UK are the biggest players..... would they stoop to the lowest level to gain information that would further their interests???? To quote my very least favorite politician..."You Betcha".


I don't think anyone is naive enough to think that other nations don't act in similar ways when it comes to abusing their powers for economic and political gain. But there is a big difference between suspecting it and actually seeing it. The Prism leak has shown that Germany was the most spied on nation in Europe, there is only one reason for this - economic espionage.

That is more than just a scandal, that threatens the economic security of all nations.


Originally posted by RickinVa
It's a fact of life people... deal with it......how you choose to deal with it is up to you.


I hope that people will deal with it, by boycotting companies that have been exposed as being duplicitous in the mass monitoring of innocent people, and that politicians will be forced into acting in the best interests of their electorate.


Originally posted by RickinVa
I can honestly say that in my career of both military and civilian government service, I have never seen anything that would believe me to think that anything nefarious is going on.... I have held some of the highest clearances you can get....


I don't believe you.
You had some of the highest clearance? That's BS. If it were true you would not be on this forum, because someone would be watching you to make sure you didn't let anything slip. You would have had warnings from above and threats to shut up.
In addition - and I really don't mean this to be an attack - the kind of person who posses such clearance levels is not the kind of person to be involved in a forum like ATS, and if they were they would not be going bonkers with exclamation marks, periods and question marks in such a way either.


Originally posted by RickinVa
Pretty much like alien bodies and everything else... if there was any credible evidence..... people will talk and it will become known....


Unless, of course, speaking about it threatens your safety, your family, your life and future, or you just believe that it is a matter of national pride and duty.
Governments keep secrets. If you think people would speak up about all these things just because of Human nature then you obviously aren't aware of the development of Stealth, the secrecy of Area 51, the development of nuclear weapons, the development of drones... there have been thousands of projects and advances which all remained top secret and were never leaked.


Originally posted by RickinVa
You cannot keep major secrets.... people talk... its human nature.


See above - no they don't.


Originally posted by RickinVa
If Mr. Snowden is correct and he was able to bypass so many internal checks that I know for a fact exist.... then the system has a major flaw which needs to be corrected and I assure it already has been or will soon be fixed.


The only major flaw here is that this system is in place to begin with. I think 90% of people agree that there should be monitoring for people suspected of planning a terrorist act, this goes without saying, but the mass monitoring of millions of innocent people can never be acceptable in the fight against a tiny minority who wish to cause harm to others.

More people are killed by a bathroom fall every year than by terrorism, but would you therefore spend billions on monitoring every bathroom in America to prevent it from happening? It's utter BS and proves mathematically that such a system is not in place to prevent terrorism.



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 05:43 AM
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reply to post by RickinVa
 





has served their country for many years as military


Wanted to stop there...but didn't...

Anyway...you army types all think alike...which is no surprise of course. Just madly thumping on chest "God and country"..."defending your people"..."security concerns", "treason"...

I get it. You've been deeply brainwashed by the military training. It is needed, otherwise no sane man would go out fighting so far away from his home...thinking that he is somehow defending his home. And that is the only excuse that could make it right in their heads. If somehow you think, that your children and wife are somehow better off with you fighting this enemy...which your family will never see.

Behavioral conditioning....I never really knew the awesome power of it...


Anyway...don't feel insulted, as you mentioned, you got your fireproof suit ready. I'm just a dumb hippie that doesn't understand wars, guns, or people that like them or fight them.


As for Snowden case...so if everyone's doing it...we should be ok with that ?

If the US wants to be a world leader...in anything...first it must lead by example. The only example it's currently showing...is oppression...without prejudice.



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 06:49 AM
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Whoa whoa whoa
I too hold security clearance, and have done at a very high level .......therefore I know that the gov is and has been up to some nefarious acts

Secondly
Someone's stated they don't believe you or that you had/have clearance, that if you did, you wouldn't be here
Gotta disagree there, I'm here and there are many posters here that due to their knowledge and idiom,leads me to believe that they are genuine in their claims. But then again there are plenty that don't
But also considering that those with a certain skill set or inclination will spend time and effort on deception and a little smoke and mirrors

However
Me personally
I've been posting here for 18 months .......in that time I've had my security clearance downgraded and been passed over for promotion twice
Considering I was originally advised to visit this site by British intelligence and SF as a good source to bridge the gap between the news and briefings and to remain current with the political and confrontational climate around the world !

As for the op .......no
There has never been such a large scale blanket surveillance program in operation before.
Before it was targeted by use of other intelligence and algorithms
Now - every piece of digital communication is stored
So in 10 years time ....when your part of a protest for whatever reason your gov can trawl through all your info to find something to discredit and villainize you.
I don't know ......maybe posting on ATS ?
Maybe you've debated and agreed with someone considered to have extremist views .....like an oath keeper
Then you have links to extremists .......then your gov can make you disappear, and as we all have seen, it's that term "links to extremists"

Thirdly
No .....not all army types are the same
Same as all hippies aren't pot smoking skirt wearing New Age travellers that rob and steal from the local populous to fund their habit while scrounging of the gov
edit on 18-6-2013 by Neocrusader because: Added



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 07:33 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 08:06 AM
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reply to post by felixjames20
 



BUT WHY...i was only stating a fact :-(



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 08:06 AM
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reply to post by felixjames20
 



BUT WHY...i was only stating a fact :-(



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 08:12 AM
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Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
Anyway...you army types all think alike...which is no surprise of course. Just madly thumping on chest "God and country"..."defending your people"..."security concerns", "treason"...

Now now .... play nice.


I was in the US Army for five years. My husband was in the Air Force. We both are against US involvement in Syira. We both were against US involvement in Libya. We both are glad that the information about NSA spying on US citizens is known and we both haven't made up our minds on Snowden (if he's a whistleblower or something more nefarious). etc etc.



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 09:14 AM
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One doesn't need a clearance to have access to extremely sensitive information - I worked a decade for big bad DoD and never had a clearance. I had access to every financial transaction, email, phone call (metadata) - even medical records inside my agency due to the nature of my job. The one exception was the secured (classified) military network stuff which wasn't within my global data (read only) access authority.

There are no limits to the lengths persons in power will go in order to meet their own bureaucratic agendas. I can't remember the number of times I was given control over tens of millions of dollars worth of computing and storage capacity (to the exclusion of all other users) - just to crunch the data targeting some event or individual that had gotten the attention of top brass. Nothing nefarious really - but chilling in terms of scope and depth.

ganjoa



posted on Jun, 18 2013 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by RickinVa
 


What everyone else does is irrelevant. We are guaranteed certain freedoms in this country by our Constitution, and when our elected leaders drop their pants and take a huge dump all over it, it is our duty to say something about it. I totally get Mr. Snowden's anger. I just don't get that he is willing to risk (forfeit) his life to tell us something we've already known (or at least could have, as it was all pretty out in the open for anyone who wanted to look).



posted on Jun, 19 2013 @ 03:44 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
Anyway...you army types all think alike...which is no surprise of course. Just madly thumping on chest "God and country"..."defending your people"..."security concerns", "treason"...

Now now .... play nice.


I was in the US Army for five years. My husband was in the Air Force. We both are against US involvement in Syira. We both were against US involvement in Libya. We both are glad that the information about NSA spying on US citizens is known and we both haven't made up our minds on Snowden (if he's a whistleblower or something more nefarious). etc etc.





Pardon moi Flyers...it's just something I noticed...most ex-military people here have this "security concerns" mental thingie ingrained in them. Always quoting how you guys enjoy security and liberty in the US, because they are willing to fight for it...somewhere...

...and how you wouldn't be so "secure"....if....bla bla

the word makes me sick...



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