I Converted A Catholic To Atheism

reply to post by Serdgiam

I meant, do you think there is anything beyond this physical universe, the material universe that we can explain with physics? It could be anything from a multi-verse type theory to the one that I have, which is where we are essentially a bubble in a bigger block of cheese. I can go into this, if you want, but it is OT.

Erm, I'm having difficulty comprehending exactly what you're asking. Have you read my "random code generator" theory? Random assortments of values being thrown together haphazardly in an infinite series of phenomena...which means that the only reason this universe appears to be succeeding is because our perspective is so limited.

If you need to elaborate, go for it.

Do you think someone who believes in a deity is incapable of taking personal responsibility?

I think they are encouraged to share personal responsibility with a deity, which invites the temptation to shirk responsibility entirely. They believe themselves powerless, or believe themselves exonerated of any and all control.

You should travel. And the power I had in mind was more in the e=mc^2 kind. As I said, I am more of a science type!

I would compare it to an explosion. Without intent, e=mc2 is like a bomb. No control, just sheer undirected and destructive force. With intent, it's like a laser or a punch. Directed, intended, and controlled. There is much more potential and application for a pneumatic drill or a laser than an uncontrolled incendiary device.

I view power itself to change. Meaning, that "power" or "energy" is absolute and that it can change form many, many times. The process that change it may be included in that, but are not power exclusively. But, I think we are taking a vastly different approach to this. It seems you are looking at it from a human perspective, and I am looking at it from a "numbers" perspective.

They are the same perspective, just different languages. Everything is numbers, everything is determined by force and direction. Numbers have personality, like a musical note. And a chord can have astonishing influences on the behavior of matter, the behavior of magnetics, the behavior of everything.

I think I have just as much appreciation for numbers as you do. That's why I read their stories with great interest and awe. Perhaps you could explain the story you've been reading and see if I understand it.

Interesting response Does time lose its power in what we view in the quantum realm? Meaning, if the same particle is able to be in two places at once, does space-time still have power over it? Do realize I come from the understanding the space and time are as entertwined as electricity and magnetism.

As far as omniscience, you would view it to be something that is whittled down to one specific system, that applies to all other systems? And isnt all of the systems collective awareness of themselves?

Interesting question. Without time, there is no energy. No activity, no energy, no existence. Nothing to observe, let alone be observed.

Collective awareness has not yet been proven, has it?

How do you determine if it conclusively makes any point without extrapolation? Before we go too much further into this, do you practice any form of science? That will make it much, much easier to relate what I am talking about here. We NEED to subjectively interpret the data to see if it meets our demands, but sometimes we are not even asking the right questions.

Evidence that exists independently of subjective observation and autonomously eliminates possibilities according to the laws of scientific investigation. There is evidence, and there is conclusive evidence - evidence that points to one conclusion and one conclusion only.

How interesting! How did you obtain this knowledge?

Because you've all but told me. Should be obvious, considering you're the wide open book here. Or at least, I think that's what you're trying to be.

Oh, and you're welcome. You tested my willingness to answer your questions, and I answered your questions that you wanted answered so badly. You are welcome.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Erm, I'm having difficulty comprehending exactly what you're asking. Have you read my "random code generator" theory? Random assortments of values being thrown together haphazardly in an infinite series of phenomena...which means that the only reason this universe appears to be succeeding is because our perspective is so limited.

If you need to elaborate, go for it.

Let me try it just using words. I have never been successful with this, so please bear with me.

We have the physical universe. All the rules of relativity seem to apply consistently, with some random exceptions. However, when we look at certain scales, these rules seem to fall apart. To me, this indicates that space-time is a medium, like water of sorts, and that outside of the medium, there is something else with different attributes.

Using your example of pure randomness, that would also suggest that you believe in multi-verses inherently. Only because the patterns exhibited within this universe, specifically, are very, very consistent. So much so, that we can even explore them, establish laws around it, and even utilize it for our own progress with technology.

I think they are encouraged to share personal responsibility with a deity, which invites the temptation to shirk responsibility entirely. They believe themselves powerless, or believe themselves exonerated of any and all control.

Do you feel this is intrinsic to religion specifically, or the idea of a deity?

I would compare it to an explosion. Without intent, e=mc2 is like a bomb. No control, just sheer undirected and destructive force. With intent, it's like a laser or a punch. Directed, intended, and controlled. There is much more potential and application for a pneumatic drill or a laser than an uncontrolled incendiary device.

So, you view it to be the ability to harness the energy that denotes power? Does this suggest that since we, as humans, can harness the power of the universe in different ways that we are more powerful than the forces we manipulate?

I think I have just as much appreciation for numbers as you do. That's why I read their stories with great interest and awe. Perhaps you could explain the story you've been reading and see if I understand it.

Yeah, I am thinking we are pretty much on the same book at least, if not the same page. Some minor differences, but thats inevitable.

As I said, I am a scientist. This also means I am not at liberty to discuss some things. However, if you wish to discuss my hypothesis of the overall construct of the universe, I can definitely talk about that. To be clear, it is extremely OT, so I want to make sure you want it in this thread, or we can do it in another if you want.

Interesting question. Without time, there is no energy. No activity, no energy, no existence. Nothing to observe, let alone be observed.

Do you have evidence for this? At least in my experience, we are finding out quite the opposite. That "something" still exists outside of the confines of space-time, or at the very least, is not subject to its whims. We see much of this behavior when we attempt to explore the quantum realm. While it is not widely accepted, or even marginally lol, it is my hypothesis that we are actually looking outside of the constraints/medium of space-time. It is the simplest explanation for the anomalies we witness, imo.

Collective awareness has not yet been proven, has it?

That would depend on what evidence would satisfy you. The human body is a collection of different systems that is seemingly collectively aware through methods such as pain, pleasure, etc that are derived from the brain.

Evidence that exists independently of subjective observation and autonomously eliminates possibilities according to the laws of scientific investigation. There is evidence, and there is conclusive evidence - evidence that points to one conclusion and one conclusion only.

But that conclusion remains subjective inherently, no? Its this specific facet that makes science so difficult. We can gather all the data in the world, but it is always always always up to us to subjectively interpret it. As long as it must come into the human perspective, it will ALWAYS be subjectively interpreted. While the end result may seem "obvious," that has no relevance on its subjectivity.

Because you've all but told me. Should be obvious, considering you're the wide open book here. Or at least, I think that's what you're trying to be.

So, what do you feel my beliefs are?

reply to post by Serdgiam


" Using your example of pure randomness, that would also suggest that you believe in multi-verses inherently."

I feel it is a very distinct possibility yes.

" Do you feel this is intrinsic to religion specifically, or the idea of a deity?"

Any religion that looks to a deity for guidance and control.

" So, you view it to be the ability to harness the energy that denotes power? Does this suggest that since we, as humans, can harness the power of the universe in different ways that we are more powerful than the forces we manipulate?"

More powerful? No. Just powerful.

" As I said, I am a scientist. This also means I am not at liberty to discuss some things. However, if you wish to discuss my hypothesis of the overall construct of the universe, I can definitely talk about that. To be clear, it is extremely OT, so I want to make sure you want it in this thread, or we can do it in another if you want."

Send me a U2U.

" Do you have evidence for this? At least in my experience, we are finding out quite the opposite."

Energy without motion? Fascinating...

" But that conclusion remains subjective inherently, no? Its this specific facet that makes science so difficult. We can gather all the data in the world, but it is always always always up to us to subjectively interpret it. As long as it must come into the human perspective, it will ALWAYS be subjectively interpreted. While the end result may seem "obvious," that has no relevance on its subjectivity."

Does that mean truth is a myth?

" So, what do you feel my beliefs are?"

I said open book. I didn't say it was any language I know.

The root of the homosexual disorder, so is the disbelief in God.

The destruction of the family, it is so sad, the latest statistics, you want to cry.

Turn to God the Father in prayer and to Our Lord if you did not have a father (or mother) or if your parents have treated you badly. Speak to God in prayer, say, before you fall asleep tonight. He will give you a sign, a signal
grace. Ask Him for faith to believe in Him. It is not your fault your parent's actions. Then, forgive them and you
are free to love God who loved you first.

+ + +


author unknown - from a Catholic blog:

..."An atheist cannot prove that God does not exist, so that puts him in the camp of the agnostic. He simply doesn't know one way or the other. So then, what makes an atheist think what they have to say about life and God is of interest to anyone at all? The only thing that distinguishes them from others is NOT superior intellect, but a certain coldness of heart that shuts out facts about God. In reality, atheists' are deserving of our pity and prayers, not contempt.

Psychology has amply demonstrated that atheism is most often rooted in a bad "Parent/Child" relationship, usually between father and son. It becomes difficult to think of a loving God when a parent is supposed to live as a sign of that loving God, and there is emotional confusion in the heart of many atheists because of this problem. There is a wanting to connect with God but also an unwillingness for fear they may be rejected by Him."

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
I feel it is a very distinct possibility yes.

I do as well, though I am not sure about the "infinite" part. That said, I dont think we will ever be able to actually figure out whether it is infinite or not.

Any religion that looks to a deity for guidance and control.

I am not so sure the guidance part removes personal responsibility, but I think we both agree that religions (amongst other things) ARE used for control. When people give up their personal responsibility, they are much, much more easily subdued and manipulated by those who control access to what "has" the power to be responsible.

More powerful? No. Just powerful.

I tend to perceive it more as clever than powerful. The power is already there in an absolute form. We define this as e=mc^2. While we can harness it, I dont see us as actually creating power, just using what is already here. Kind of a semantic difference though, so I suppose it doesnt necessarily matter.

Send me a U2U.

Ill do it a bit later today.

Energy without motion? Fascinating...

It is isnt it? It is truly mind boggling that a particle can exist in two places at once. Perhaps our interpretation of the data is faulty, but perhaps it isnt. A quantum processor is able to effectively utilize this concept, by bridging a gap of space-time, in a way (to be clear, this isnt exactly how it all works). This is allowing for pretty significant improvement, though I think our current limitation is trying to measure it using techniques that apply to old understanding. As well as trying to adapt the concept to old technology. I think before we start to really see the true extent of the advancement, we will need to build an entirely new foundation to work with. At that point, the term "computers" may actually be obsolete in principle. The entire area has massive amounts of unanswered questions though, and we are struggling to even get data, much less get to the point where we can attempt to interpret it. Anyone who says they have even a passing grasp of the topic is being disengenuous. Id like to think I do, because of my work, but when it comes down to it, we are infants.

Does that mean truth is a myth?

I think this brings up a fascinating concept, at least to me. What we know as "truth" is certainly NOT the "true" nature of things. Or else things like science would be defunct and useless. I think we explore the "Truth" (capitilized to show its referring to something different) with things like science and even religion. I feel science is the better method. In the end, all we can do is come to our own human collective perception of the truth, and it is massively diverse. And while it may not represent Truth in its entirety, our collective truth is still a valid part of the Truth.

I said open book. I didn't say it was any language I know.

I gotcha. I think I am the only one that speaks it, but I think that rings true for everyone. We are quick to agree with those who idealogically are the same, and quick to discard those who disagree. Neither one leads to any real exploration. One who agrees will just say they "get" the other person, even though they dont, and one who disagrees tends to be looked at as "wrong" because we struggle, instrinsically, to understand how the heck someone cant see what seems so obvious to us.

I think we stifle ourselves by doing this though. By actively exploring each others perspective, whether we agree or disagree on the surface, we are ALL perceiving the same thing. We just have different ways of looking at it. I think they are all valid though, in their way, and by talking about it, we start to get a picture of how truly immense even just the human context of reality actually is. But, in the end, we are all speaking our own language, and all just communicating our own valid piece of what we perceive to be true. Its really incredible.

Originally posted by colbe
The root of the homosexual disorder, so is the disbelief in God.

The destruction of the family, it is so sad, the latest statistics, you want to cry.

What's wrong with being gay? It's just the way it is, and it is nobody's 'fault'. I'm gay and my life has been perfectly fine. Sure, there was the acceptance phase of it, but would I really have had to 'accept' anything if people weren't programmed to hate homosexuality so much?

The only reason homosexuality destroys families is because we label it bad and intolerable. If we just accepted the person for who they are instead of looking down on them or trying to 'fix' them, there would be no problem at all. But our religions and our biases and our societal systems don't allow for acceptance. There always has to be the outcast, the 'weirdo' the person who doesn't belong. That is what is so sad. Those are the statistics that make me want to cry.

Don't you see how religion has created a duality? Instead of just us, it becomes us, and them. This separation we have created between us, this duality, is the reason behind every argument, every fight, every war, every act of violence or intolerance that has ever occurred on this planet. How can we be so blind? Isn't it obvious that we are only hurting ourselves?

Originally posted by colbe

Psychology has amply demonstrated that atheism is most often rooted in a bad "Parent/Child" relationship, usually between father and son.

Where are these statistcs, exactly? I'd like to see them.

I think atheists make better parents because they don't try to force their belief systems down their children's throats.

There is a wanting to connect with God but also an unwillingness for fear they may be rejected by Him."

No, atheists simply don't believe in god. There is no fear of being rejected by him, because they don't believe in a 'Him'.

reply to post by HarryTZ


I better warn you Colbe thinks that the Catholic child abuse scandel is the fault of homosexuals.
He will tell you to kneel and pray and ask Jesus blah blah blah, we have no chance with people like him.
He is a Catholic....
Oh well at least the OP had better luck with one.

reply to post by colbe


"Judge not lest ye be judged."

What are the most important tenets to christianity, colbe? We have many rulings, and sayings, that seem to ring true with the two simple commandments of Jesus, but we also have things that dont seem to align with it.

In the end, it doesnt matter what you personal morals are. In the standard christian belief system, God is the one who will make final judgments, and I am not so sure he would like so many of his flock doing that which he told them specifically *not* to do. He even went so far as to sacrifice his son to communicate not just what *not* to do, but which trail markers will lead you to him.

What are the two commandments of Jesus? Since a homosexual person is fully capable of carrying these commandments out, is it truly the "fault" of a singled out group like that? Because they are able to carry out ALL of the commandments put forth by Jesus, wouldnt that indicate that the issue lies not with their homosexuality, but with a more deeply rooted issue that can even affect those who claim to follow Jesus?

Addressing that, or what may be perceived in your religion as the division introduced by satan, may yield results that are actually in line with your own teachings and tenets. The only thing you can do is show the fruits of your OWN action in life, trying to force others to bear the same fruit as you is, imo, being disrespectful to the true vastness of variety that God has allowed to flourish and grow in this place.

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by colbe

Psychology has amply demonstrated that atheism is most often rooted in a bad "Parent/Child" relationship, usually between father and son.

Where are these statistcs, exactly? I'd like to see them.

I think atheists make better parents because they don't try to force their belief systems down their children's throats.

There is a wanting to connect with God but also an unwillingness for fear they may be rejected by Him." [/quote

No, atheists simply don't believe in god. There is no fear of being rejected by him, because they don't believe in a 'Him'.

You can do a search, the greatest problem with the world is the destruction of the family. How could God
love me when I know my father doesn't? Look at divorce rates, in the news, marriages are down even more, people living together, no idea of the grace given in Sacramental marriage.

Originally posted by Serdgiam
reply to post by colbe

 

"Judge not lest ye be judged."

What are the most important tenets to christianity, colbe? We have many rulings, and sayings, that seem to ring true with the two simple commandments of Jesus, but we also have things that dont seem to align with it.

In the end, it doesnt matter what you personal morals are. In the standard christian belief system, God is the one who will make final judgments, and I am not so sure he would like so many of his flock doing that which he told them specifically *not* to do. He even went so far as to sacrifice his son to communicate not just what *not* to do, but which trail markers will lead you to him.

What are the two commandments of Jesus? Since a homosexual person is fully capable of carrying these commandments out, is it truly the "fault" of a singled out group like that? Because they are able to carry out ALL of the commandments put forth by Jesus, wouldnt that indicate that the issue lies not with their homosexuality, but with a more deeply rooted issue that can even affect those who claim to follow Jesus?

Addressing that, or what may be perceived in your religion as the division introduced by satan, may yield results that are actually in line with your own teachings and tenets. The only thing you can do is show the fruits of your OWN action in life, trying to force others to bear the same fruit as you is, imo, being disrespectful to the true vastness of variety that God has allowed to flourish and grow in this place.

From my heart, God bless you Serdgiam,

Who is "forcing" this a thread about turning Catholics to atheism on a discussion forum.

Only God knows our heart and He is who we all see at our particular judgment. God has revealed what is good and what is bad, we can know and part of His revelation, you are to love God with all your heart, mind and soul.

To remain silent and watch atheists/agnostics actually, set their sights on hell is a sin of omission. And how contradicting, doesn't fit, an atheist quoting Scripture. My turn, I share a verse, Jesus said:


2 John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge just judgment.

4 Cardinal virtues of Secularists...atheists too:
Pluralism (a relativistic attitude toward truth, religion and morals)
Tolerance (a non-judgmental approach to contrary opinions and “lifestyles”)
Equality (giving equal value to any individual or cultural differences)
Freedom (emphasis on individual autonomy in moral decision making)

Great, you believe so do all Christians, love the sinner, we are all sinners. But, NOT the sin. Pray for homosexuals to discover God loves them very, very much, it doesn't matter if their father didn't know how or chose to show them love.

The "sin", sodomy, is an abomination to God. It is unnatural, not of God.

And you guys wondered why my friend is now an atheist...life is just so much better without a god telling you how to think and feel.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

And you guys wondered why my friend is now an atheist...life is just so much better without a god telling you how to think and feel.

You still have time to turn to God before God will turn his face from you.

reply to post by piequal3because14


But why would a father turn his face from me, his supposed child? Is he ashamed of his creation?

Originally posted by colbe
Who is "forcing" this a thread about turning Catholics to atheism on a discussion forum.

When we experience the true diversity of our perspective ourselves, we can put together a few more pieces in an endless puzzle.

Have you ever thought that atheism itself may lead to whatever you perceive God to be? Has an atheist ever reconsidered their position on the matter? If so, then getting in the way of their path is akin to inhibiting them from seeking what you feel they should have already found.

Great, you believe so do all Christians, love the sinner, we are all sinners. But, NOT the sin. Pray for homosexuals to discover God loves them very, very much, it doesn't matter if their father didn't know how or chose to show them love.

I suspect that we have a different view on that we are all sinners. I do not believe we are sinners inherently, as many religions preach, but that we are sinners as a product of our cultural story, which is a product of our choices.

Changing this doesnt even need to involved religion, or even God. The world as we know it is a product of our choices, regardless of if those choices were manipulated. Most simply accept it because its "the way its always been" or discard personal responsibility by saying that "its all the fault of satan, we need "x" to make the choices for us."

The "sin", sodomy, is an abomination to God. It is unnatural, not of God.

Did you hear this directly from God, or from the work of other humans?

reply to post by piequal3because14


God, even if he exists in the limited capacity religions attempt to confine him to, would never turn on anyone.

Ever.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by piequal3because14

 

But why would a father turn his face from me, his supposed child? Is he ashamed of his creation?

edit on 21-6-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Because you took his name Here,

www.abovetopsecret.com...

and you realy did that!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
And you guys wondered why my friend is now an atheist...life is just so much better without a god telling you how to think and feel.

edit on 21-6-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Can't you see AI, you are following Satan, first, before his fall, he was created as one of God's greatest angels.

His pride, Satan's words were "I will not serve." You're not an angel, you are a human person...

God only asks that you be loving. AI, nothing is taken away from you, love and peace are added to your life following God. A great definition for how we do God's Will, people wonder. The definition is...

You do God's Will when you be love in the present moment, no matter the circumstance.

Pray, even if for 10 minutes a day, speak to God.

reply to post by Serdgiam

God, even if he exists in the limited capacity religions attempt to confine him to, would never turn on anyone.

Ever.

On the Devil itself,yes.

Originally posted by piequal3because14
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

God, even if he exists in the limited capacity religions attempt to confine him to, would never turn on anyone.

Ever.

On the Devil itself,yes.

So, if satan made the decision to truly repent and ask for forgiveness from your god, he would not receive it?

I am not saying a devil would actually do this, but if he did, you are saying he would be turned away?