World Ships

Originally posted by Murcielago

I've dissed this idea more then anyone else because I dont see its purpose.

You dont have to. The people like you will be left behind

As for endless scavanging couldnt you say the same about what we do now? the only difference is out there the resources are infinite and easily obtainable. ONE fair sized comet would last for hundreds of years and almost everything could be recycable.

Just like the New World back in the 1500s most will elect to stay on Earth and just like then the exploriers will soon forget their ties to their less adventuresome cousins

Like life there is not a point to the trip the trip IS the point

Originally posted by Aelita
I am a scientist and I guess not sufficeintly open minded to believe that.
Getting into a matter of timing here... And now, that's pure speculation.

The experiment that McFadden referenced as possible proof of this are as follows...

Tests were done on the neural activity of subjects during moments of "conscious" thought as opposed to all others. Normally the neurons within the brain fire in a landing strip pattern from one to the next along the neural pathways, correct? Well, it's been found that during moments of "conscious" thought, our neurons manage to synchronize and fire simultaneously. The current explanation for this behavior (last I heard) is that these neurons were somehow communicating instantly. McFadden suggested a feedback loop between certain neurons and the EM field which envelopes the brain. He goes into further explanation which is honestly above my head. Read his works. McFadden is also a trained "scientist" and not a fraud trying to make a buck. His books were actually recommended reading in a couple of my university courses.

That's the last I'll discuss this here, 'cos we're killing this thread

How about this:

Lets set an imaginary timeframe. Ad deadline so to speak..

We have to get off the Earth, A castastrophe..Making Earth uninhabitable for a short time..Say 1 year..Some will go to Temporary Shelter, like a moonbase, or
Lots of Small Spacestations, they will return to Earth.. But some, will want to venture further...That would be us. the Next Catastrophe, may render Earth into nothing but a cinder..

Now, a list: Gotta have a list...What are we taking?

We haven't even really settled on power..Anti-matter is a nice idea, but control of it, storing it, etc...I don't think we are ready..HOWEVER we would need physicists on the SHIP..SO that might be done at a later time.
Do we agree on some kind of Nuclear power? Fusion is still a holy Grail, but the concepts are in place..Fusion?


The Ship: An Asteroid..How big? and How do we Hollow it out?
Do we throw away the stuff we take from the inside? or refine it into something..

Originally posted by spacedoubt

Now, a list: Gotta have a list...What are we taking?

We haven't even really settled on power..Anti-matter is a nice idea, but control of it, storing it, etc...I don't think we are ready..HOWEVER we would need physicists on the SHIP..SO that might be done at a later time.
Do we agree on some kind of Nuclear power? Fusion is still a holy Grail, but the concepts are in place..Fusion?

We have room for MILLIONS on board everything from physicists to farmers to artists to whatever. Think New York City with all the support systems.

The Ship: An Asteroid..How big? and How do we Hollow it out?
Do we throw away the stuff we take from the inside? or refine it into something..

We have tunnelers now all we would have to do is modifiy them. We would use the asteroid for material, you can get water/air/ building material/etc all from the asteroid, heck you wouldnt need much more than it for the first couple hundred years

Ok, first... let's hope it doesn't take a disaster. That would mean the VAST majority of human life on earth would be taking a dirt nap.

As for power, I think that storing antimatter wouldn't be that hard. They currently use strong EM fields to contain what antimatter they are able to create at the moment? Now, if power ever failed for one reason or another... then I imagine that things could get ugly.

As for the asteroid... I'm not sure that using an actual asteroid would be the idea. It would probably give a basic structure to begin with, but I think the idea was to simply build a massive asteroid sized ship or ships.

Finally, I thought this thread began as a discussion about our visitors possibly being from these generational ships and not a planet, in order to explain the vast distance problem. How did this turn into a strange plan for human utilization of this method? Hmmm

Edit: Nevermind... I guess that we were talking about actual asteroids

[edit on 9-11-2004 by veritas93]

Would there be any limits on how big you could make a World Ship? I was wondering if you built one the size of our moon would it being that big produce its on gravity from its sheer mass.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Would there be any limits on how big you could make a World Ship? I was wondering if you built one the size of our moon would it being that big produce its on gravity from its sheer mass.

I assume that it would. However, being mostly hollow, I can't imagine that its mass would be anywhere comparable to the moon. Assuming that we have some of these other techs by then, we'd probably also have the tech to counter that gravitational influence on surrounding bodies. Otherwise, we'd have to park outside of whatever system we chose to visit

***Slapping self on Forehead****

READ THIS

This could be an inexpensive way to gain Momentum at the beginning of the Voyage...AND

It's a Fitting way to travel on a World SHIP...!!

Plus, when reaching other Star systems, it could be redeployed, for the next destination.

Whatcha think about that?

I like this idea, except each ship is its own polity, and their is no central tyranny. I picture the idea "World Ship," as something like an imaginary town, say call it "pleasantville," a community. Anti-social characters for example may be transported to "anti-social-ville," another ship whose sole purpose is to transform itself into "pleasantville.

In fact I like this "World Ship," idea so much, I think we might want to do the same concept here on earth. Just keep the anti-social, and hyper elites, in their own virtual box, away from most inhabitants of pleasantville, who are extremely tired of the atypical wars and foreclosures inherent upon a topheavy hierarchical nightmare such as the the current asinine "New World Order." Imagine a world without massive failure A, B, C, call it maybe fluoride, aspartame and depleted uranium, etc. present due to suicidal elites. Nothing bigger than "pleasantville," and no meglomaniacs, and no deliberately profitable health hazards, operating due to propaganda. You can add to the list of things NOT present, and imagine what would be.



[edit on 10-11-2004 by SkipShipman]

This is an excellent thread, thanks Amuk!

There have been some good problems pointed out, and some excellent solutions that went overlooked. I've been thinking about the idea for a while, because I agree our time on earth is limited. It's a dangerous planet, and getting more dangerous by the day. We should do everything we can as a species to insure the survival of our kind.

I think we need to send out a number of very large ships, in different directions. Say eight ships, with 100k people each. That's a small number of people to lose from earth, but a great number of people to insure a breeding population.

The great thing about an environment like that, the children are immediately aware of the gravity of their situation, no pun intended. They have to toe the line or everybody dies. That's immensely motivating.

Society would have to become more cohesive aboard the ships. There would be different societies operating completely beyond the influence of earth. We'd be speeding up our evolution by a factor of 8! I like that a lot, and I think anyone who roots for their team should like it too.

Redundancy never hurt a species. If we can insure against the catastrophic demise of all the ships, we don't have to worry too much about the earth.

Some problems people mentioned, water shortage, water storage, and gravity, I think answers exist for all these.

Water is easy to find in space, and easy to make too. Hyrdogen fuel cells put off two byproducts from their process, energy and H20. Drink the water, feed it to the plants, bathe in it, whatever, there's plenty. The space shuttle always has way more water than they need, and they end up dumping it on a regular schedule to get rid of the excess.

Refill the fuel cells with processed hydrogen from a giant 'scoop' on the front of your intergalactic hotrod and you're good to go. The fuel cells would power the life support systems of the ship, with backup generators capable of running on combustibles/fission/steam to keep the lights on in an emergency. Water and food are necessary for life, all plants need to surivive and provide us with food; light, water, and nutrients. (I'm a big fan of bats and worms when it comes to sources of nutrients. We could maintain a bat cave on the ship for mushrooms and guano.)

The ship would have to be equipped with multiple propulsion methods, sails and various motors. The best tool for maneuvering might be to jettison unneeded oxygen in controlled bursts. They could use sails and ion drives for long term flight.

Water storage isn't nearly such a problem as hydrogen storage, but I think the tech is up to the task. The tanks would best be placed along the interior wall of a hollow globe or three quarter moon ship, to avoid penetration by micro-meteorites. Using a sort of 'chopped melon' design would allow the ship to position itself towards the sun relative to its power needs and the danger to the crew. It could also be a 'wafer' ship, that turns itself sideways to face the sun with the huge rectangular surface area of the top of the ship, for the plants.

The crew members require gravity to avoid losing their muscles, and eventually, perhaps, suffer heart attacks as a result of critical atrophy. What they require is muscle stimulation, not necessarily gravity. This can be accomplished in a number of ways, with specialized electronic trainers. Combine that with pedalling a bicycle and you're plenty excercised. I understand there is a problem with the organs of those prolonged to long term exposure to weightlessness, but I believe we need more study and observation of the LONG term effects before we state that we can't do it. I would rather die trying than stay on the earth in fear and get wiped away by a rock for my troubles. No thank you.

The main source of energy is threefold, sunlight, heat, battery power. Also, lets not overlook mechanical means of energy generation, such as flywheels and hand cranks. The crew requires excercise, put them on a power generating stationary bike. If the ship is designed meticulously to meet the energy needs of the long term, I see no problems.

It wouldn't even cost that much money or resources when you think about what's being bought. A practical guarantee of survival for our species. That rocks at any price!

Am I mistaken in believing that there are immense resources floating around out there, ripe, and easy to pick as low hanging fruit? Diamonds the size of planets, rare element meteors , golden planets, lush jungle planets, there is so much out there to be had. Meeting other inteligent life would be the experience of a lifetime, but I'd be content just to surive, and insure the survival of my children.

There are offshore platforms going up as we speak that will be lawless, corporate countries. I think it's a fabulous idea, but I want people to think more long-term. We can't survive forever on this rock. BTW, if anyone has an invite to a platform they're not goingt to use, toss it my way.

There needs to be a global symposium, a bunch of scientists from all disciplines get together in Vegas, get hammered, and bang out a feasibility study for a planet ship. We could accomplish so much if we put our minds and our resources together, for the good of all mankind.

I think it's one of the few noble causes, but nobody would ever care enough to give their money to it. How many people gave hand over fist for the tsunami, billions of dollars to buy flip flops and medical supplies, food for a few months and a tarp for people in 10 countries or so. That's a good start, but think bigger! Let's help the species, all together for a common goal, for once without an enemy other than fate. Nah, that'll never work, humans need an enemy. hmmm..let me think, oh, I know!

I just know the world is destined to improve the day I wave goodbye from the back window of an interstellar spacecraft. I'm cursed, and the longer I stay on earth, the worse it gets. Is that enough motivation for everybody? I'll be the boogeyman, watch out for my voodoo!

I'm a little shocked at the lack of concern regarding the social and mental health of such a society. History has shown us time and again that isolated societies often degenerate to horrid conditions. Physical and sexual abuse is often common. Even if the initial crew is sonsidered mentaly stable, the behavior of future generations is not gauranteed (and notoriously difficult to predict). I'm afraid that these things need to be seriously looked at. We certainly wouldn't want these ships to evolve into miniature dictatorships. Not that I'm being pessimestic, but it could spell disaster and I think it deserves some attention. Any thoughts?

[edit on 15-2-2005 by spike]

The very survival of the ship is dependant on the cohesive efforts of the crew. People are supposed to go crazy in space, but I think the scale of the ship would do much to quell that instinct.

Also consider, there are so many incidences of insanity in our world because our cities drive people insane! The conditions in some cities are better than others, we need to study these factors and identify the flash points. There are unconscious triggers all around us in the cities that drive our instincts wild. It's not part of our conscious thought process, but it grows and emerges later as psychotic tendencies.

These conditions need to be honestly assessed, out from underneath the tentacles of corporate control. There are certain ways to insure sanity and help people remain calm. One of them is drugs, another is soothing light, and a third is music. Plants and the sound of running water also help calm people down, and on a garden ship there would be plenty of plants and plenty of water.

I think the initial screening, and a curriculum to encourage responsibility and community spirit in children born on the ship, would eliminate most problems. You could also provide services like counseling onboard.

Good point though, because the layout and design of the ship should be with the crew in mind. Small children, the elderly, they all have to have a place, and a good life onboard. This can be accomplished, I've seen enough cool tech to be sure of that.

Coming soon: Light transmitting concrete!

Originally posted by spike
I'm a little shocked at the lack of concern regarding the social and mental health of such a society. History has shown us time and again that isolated societies often degenerate to horrid conditions. Physical and sexual abuse is often common. Even if the initial crew is sonsidered mentaly stable, the behavior of future generations is not gauranteed (and notoriously difficult to predict).

What is the guarantee of the mental health of New York City? Most people in rural towns would suffer from more isolation than the crew on a worldship.

You have to take into consideration we are not talking about a couple dozen people packed into overlarge space shuttle. We are talking about hundreds of thousands or millions of people on a ship as large as a good sized asteroid.

We are talking about a "ship" with parks, lakes, zoos, everything we have on earth. If the asteroid isnt large enough to have a small gravity, a slight spin would take care of most of the gravity problems, or they could be overcome in other ways.

I do understand the scope of these proposed ships, and know that in a large population like that, many of my fears might not be likely to occour. All of the technical problems are manageable; But human unpredictability is always a shadow over any advanced society. And large cities do sometimes fall into violent and unstable conditions. The LA riots are a somewhat recent example. That would be disastarous on a self-contained vehicle.

why stop at at one ship or even eight as posted earlier....once we have a few world ships built, theres nothing stopping us from creating more, at an exponencial rate....

think of quadrillions of humans occupying trillions of world ships....combine that with quantum computers, and every person on any world ship could comunicate with any other person on any other ship INSTANTANIOUSLY......think of how HUGE the internet would be...lol

think of how FAST the sum total of human knowledge would multiply in a situation like that...

we could be a SUPER plague, consuming all matter in the known universe!!!! the human virus could finally become properly contagious

i LOVE this idea !!!!

[edit on 16-2-2005 by Urn]