Lost Wisdom of the Ancients or failure on our part?

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posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by SLAYER69
 





Man is NOT presently the most sophisticated he has ever been, not by a long shot. Oh, sure, we have plenty of high-tech modern electronics and a better understanding of the Micro, Macro and even of the Multi but in the end what have we really obtained?


IMO not much sure we have some 'nice gadgets', but nothing that would stand the test of time like that star chart.

In fact, we have "gadgets" that allow us to carve ten billion times the amount of info on that star chart into a tiny fraction of the space on that star chart.

We typically don't store information that way, since carving on stone is a lousy way to store information.

It's not readily retrievable, nor is it readily shareable. Both are must-haves for information storage in an age where the population is not only half a million times what it was 5500 years ago, but also deeply invested into electromagnetic methodologies.

Harte




posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Dear SLAYER69,

I wasn't planning to post and have been taking some time away from ATS; but, when I see something by you I have to join in. I was hoping it would be one of your amazing threads about some ancient civilization; but, am equally pleased by your question and would like to make a couple of thoughts on the matter.

Overall I think we are as intelligent as the ancients; but, we are lazier because we don't need to be anymore. The ancients had to remember things whereas we can write them down. The ancients had to find ways to do very difficult tasks, like moving a monolith using people; whereas we have trucks and cranes. In Judaism there were two ways that the bible was remembered, a written and an oral tradition. They matched up 99.999%, they had ways to check. As each Hebrew letter is also a number, each sentence had to "add up" as did each book. A lot of training and work went into that; but, there appears little need for this anymore so the skills have lapsed.

Consider the Polynesians, they traveled a 1/3rd of the world in rafts and found Hawaii. Their ability to read the waves and animals and the sky was unprecedented. That skill is now gone as there is no need for it in an age of GPS and compasses. I believe that we grow as we are challenged. Arnold Toynbee wrote a series of books called ""A Study of History". He studied the rise and fall of different societies and concluded that this was true.

The ancients failed because they could not meet their next challenges, whatever those may have been. They became very adept at doing things that no longer needed to be done using brute force or great mental feats. I don't see that as a "failure" on our part; but, am concerned what happens when technology fails. When I was in High School, I learned to read a map, use a compass, use a slide rule, speed read, memorize vast amounts of information and do math by pencil and paper, no calculators. Since those ancient days of my schooling, kids are not taught those techniques in the same way (or at all) and maybe that is okay to an extent.

Let me give an example of what I believe regarding this subject and using art as an example. Most Traditionalists would consider Rembrandt and others to be the height of painting. They were experts at conveying the reality of an image. Once photography came in, making a true representation was no longer important and painting reinvented itself to be more abstract and Impressionistic. If you look at the early paintings of Dali or Picasso, they were as adept at being representational as the masters; but, chose to show the world in a new way.

Now to the second part of what you ask. If you put the tablet in the ground and the phone in the ground, the tablet will of course last longer; but, how many people ever saw that tablet or were able to use the knowledge that it encoded? We make trade offs, everyone can now use a cell phone and it's GPS to go anywhere in the world and to even understand foreign languages. Technology in the hands of everyone allows people more freedom in my opinion. There will always be a few that remember the old ways, consider Coral Castle; but, I am not even sure we would want everyone to have that knowledge. What if every 15 year old could do what the builder of Coral Castle did, many would misuse the understanding.

Just some thoughts. Always love your posts.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by Harte
We typically don't store information that way, since carving on stone is a lousy way to store information.


This i cant agree with,
most of everything we know of ancient cultures comes directly from such carved stone.

Imagine a disaster that wipes out most of the Earths population, theres a few survivors scattered around the World, in all the devastation, it is likely that all electronic gadgetry will be smashed, broken, etc.
Then what?

If there was a huge megalithic structure made of stone that contained all 'vital' information for future generations, then in all probability the structure and info contained 'carved' on the 'walls' will survive.
We have many such structures that have stood the test of time and therefore carving walls is still essential today in my opinion.


edit on 14-6-2013 by GezinhoKiko because: Italic? how?



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by GezinhoKiko

Originally posted by Harte
We typically don't store information that way, since carving on stone is a lousy way to store information.


This i cant agree with,
most of everything we know of ancient cultures comes directly from such carved stone.

Imagine a disaster that wipes out most of the Earths population, theres a few survivors scattered around the World, in all the devastation, it is likely that all electronic gadgetry will be smashed, broken, etc.
Then what?

If there was a huge megalithic structure made of stone that contained all 'vital' information for future generations, then in all probability the structure and info contained 'carved' on the 'walls' will survive.
We have many such structures that have stood the test of time and therefore carving walls is still essential today in my opinion.

While I agree with what you say (mostly), I assert that today there is more information physically stored on carved (and cast) stone (and metal) all over the world than the Ancients managed to store throughout the last 7 thousand years.

Harte
edit on 6/15/2013 by Harte because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 01:39 AM
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Originally posted by LUXUS

I just don't believe it, would be too brittle and then you have the problem that we have hieroglyphs carved in diorite too.




That's nice since you believe something that can be shown to work or not work why don't you go verify that its impossible? Offer up a 500,000 dollar prize to the first person who can work diorite with tools like the ancients had - since they cannot you won't loose anything will you?

You might also remember it wasn't just the AE who worked granite other ancients civilizations did too, Bablyon, Assryia and Sumer. Remember also that hieroglyphic on granite obelisks were much larger than those painted on walls.



Here is a Diorite statue from Sumer of Gudea its from circa 2100 BC, the fingers and feet are a little unrealistic probably due to the difficulty of carving the stone.

Note the size: 44 x 21.5 x 29.5 cm (17 3/8 x 8 1/2 x 11 5/8 in)



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by JayinAR
There is actually a lot of stuff that would last quite awhile if civilization was wiped out today. Though maybe not our IPads, but other stuff. Interstate I-40 here near where I live has an expanse of hundreds of miles of reinforced concrete slabs. That would last quite awhile. As would the excavated embankments running parallel. Underground bunkers, etc...


Here in York, UK, there are Roman baths, now 50 feet underground. They are approximately 1200 years old. In another 1000 years they'll be 100 feet underground. In 10,000 years they'll be 500 feet underground... What can we know of civilisations that may have existed 100,000 years ago?

I think we basically reset every 26,000 years or so, and the OP is right. After the next truly global disaster, we'll be cavemen again, learning how to make fire and knapp flint...



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by Watcher26

Originally posted by JayinAR
There is actually a lot of stuff that would last quite awhile if civilization was wiped out today. Though maybe not our IPads, but other stuff. Interstate I-40 here near where I live has an expanse of hundreds of miles of reinforced concrete slabs. That would last quite awhile. As would the excavated embankments running parallel. Underground bunkers, etc...


Here in York, UK, there are Roman baths, now 50 feet underground. They are approximately 1200 years old. In another 1000 years they'll be 100 feet underground. In 10,000 years they'll be 500 feet underground... What can we know of civilisations that may have existed 100,000 years ago?

I think we basically reset every 26,000 years or so, and the OP is right. After the next truly global disaster, we'll be cavemen again, learning how to make fire and knapp flint...


The accumulation of soil happens in some places not all. In the case of the Roman baths that is directly caused by the city being rebuilt over it over 1,200 years - that is why there are mounds (tells) in the middle east. Ruins that are not built over will usually be shallow as were Catathoyuck and Gobelki tepe two of the oldest cultures with structures.

There is no evidence that we 'reset' world wide advanced technological civilization every 26,000 years (but it is a beloved fringe meme) there is however an immense amount of evidence that we did't. You might want to look at ice cores, sediment cores and particularly archaeological site with long stratigraphic records some going back over a stretch of 350,000 years there is no sign of the 'reset civilization' and lots of signs of mans slow development to cultures then civilizations.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 02:27 AM
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FAILURE - We keep on repeating the same bad mistakes.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 04:42 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


I have seen the pink granite obelisks and some of the details in those hieroglyphs are minute. According to archeologists granite was cut with copper saws shaped by beating chunks out of it with stone balls/hammers and then lapped to smooth the surface. Obviously you cant use that method to carve hieroglyphs?



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 05:03 AM
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Originally posted by headb
guys and dudes, let me share my 2 cents worth while i till have an iota of common sense left....


you all know that genius peaks the minute you lose it so....


I was wondering the same thing about water. how is it that it is one of the most common substances in this planet and yet display the opposite of most other substances? it expands when frozen. they say it's because the crystalline structure organizes itself as such, but i do believe it is just behaving as this experiment has shown us. that's why it is contradicting the law of expansion and contraction so much. we haven't mastered the laws of thermodynamics as much as we wish for. it's doing the darn opposite as we predicted it would do! why is it defying the obvious laws of thermodynamics?

somewhere along the line, we made a wrong assumption. iti s not just water folks. common. let's open up! we missed something. it isn't that simple. there are always exceptions and we should look into these.the discrepancy between contraction and expansion of crystalline objects is just too much to ignore.

sorry but ive been making ice for a living so it's been in mind for so long - i couldn't remember when i started wondeiring
edit on 14-6-2013 by headb because: (no reason given)


There are academics that study the behavior of water in incredible detail. They once held a conference in the main reception of my college. They studied everything from interaction with other chemicals to behavior at different temperatures. Even the analysis of the different shapes of ice crystals:

www.its.caltech.edu...



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 05:06 AM
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Originally posted by Watcher26

Originally posted by JayinAR
There is actually a lot of stuff that would last quite awhile if civilization was wiped out today. Though maybe not our IPads, but other stuff. Interstate I-40 here near where I live has an expanse of hundreds of miles of reinforced concrete slabs. That would last quite awhile. As would the excavated embankments running parallel. Underground bunkers, etc...


Here in York, UK, there are Roman baths, now 50 feet underground. They are approximately 1200 years old. In another 1000 years they'll be 100 feet underground. In 10,000 years they'll be 500 feet underground... What can we know of civilisations that may have existed 100,000 years ago?

I think we basically reset every 26,000 years or so, and the OP is right. After the next truly global disaster, we'll be cavemen again, learning how to make fire and knapp flint...


Turkey had underground cities that date to 800BC if not older:

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 07:09 AM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Hmm strange, on Page 1 I did a search for the keywords "Zodiac" and "360" but I don't see it anywhere.
Yet Slayer, in the OP all I see are zodiacs and 360 degrees. How can this be!

I will post what I linked elsewhere because it's such cool information.

60 (number) wiki


The Babylonian number system had a base of sixty, inherited from the Sumerian and Akkadian civilizations, and possibly motivated by the large number of divisors which 60 has. The sexagesimal measurement of time and of geometric angles is a legacy of the Babylonian system.

The number system in the Mali Empire was also based on sixty (this is reflected in the counting system of the Maasina Fulfulde, a variant of the Fula language spoken in contemporary Mali).[2] The Ekagi of Western New Guinea have also used base 60,[3] and the sexagenary cycle also plays a role in Chinese calendar and numerology.


Ok so 60 base is where it all came from apparently? These "Computers / Calendars / Zodiacs" are 360 which is 6 groups of 60.
60 seconds, minutes. 12 hours 2 cycles, 360 / 24 = 15 and 15 x 4 returns us to 60.

Granted our calendars are anomalous with 365.24 days now, but I'm sure the calendar experts can explain how all of this works much better and exactly why such anomalies are present and why the ancient Sumerians based everything on this system. Perhaps it is some facet of axial tilt/wobble or drift or whatnot?


Babylonian numerals were written in cuneiform, using a wedge-tipped reed stylus to make a mark on a soft clay tablet which would be exposed in the sun to harden to create a permanent record. The Babylonians, who were famous for their astronomical observations and calculations (aided by their invention of the abacus), used a sexagesimal (base-60) positional numeral system inherited from the Sumerian and also Akkadian civilizations. Neither of the predecessors was a positional system (having a convention for which ‘end’ of the numeral represented the units).


Babylonian number system
Abacus

The Abacus seems like a really important clue to the answers we all seek. This apparently was a highly useful working computer/calculator system. Who today knows how to use this? Very few.


Only two symbols ( to count units and to count tens) were used to notate the 59 non-zero digits. These symbols and their values were combined to form a digit in a sign-value notation way similar to that of Roman numerals; for example, the combination represented the digit for 23 (see table of digits below). A space was left to indicate a place without value, similar to the modern-day zero. Babylonians later devised a sign to represent this empty place. They lacked a symbol to serve the function of radix point, so the place of the units had to be inferred from context : could have represented 23 or 23×60 or 23×60×60 or 23/60, etc.


23? Strange!
23x60 = 1380
x60 again = 82800
23/60 = .38


Their system clearly used internal decimal to represent digits, but it was not really a mixed-radix system of bases 10 and 6, since the ten sub-base was used merely to facilitate the representation of the large set of digits needed, while the place-values in a digit string were consistently 60-based and the arithmetic needed to work with these digit strings was correspondingly sexagesimal.


So basically you have to work in base 60 system to calculate correct answers?


The legacy of sexagesimal still survives to this day, in the form of degrees (360° in a circle or 60° in an angle of an equilateral triangle), minutes, and seconds in trigonometry and the measurement of time, although both of these systems are actually mixed radix.

A common theory is that 60, a superior highly composite number (the previous and next in the series being 12 and 120), was chosen due to its prime factorization: 2×2×3×5, which makes it divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, and 30. In fact, it is the smallest integer divisible by all integers from 1 to 6. Integers and fractions were represented identically — a radix point was not written but rather made clear by context.


Truly fascinating.
Now I am going to go read the rest of the thread (I only read the OP then did keyword searches), so if someone actually said what I said I will trip. I just had to post these thoughts immediately based on what Slayer made me think of.

I will probably post more too later after I read more posts and all that. Oh and if anyone responds to this one with some insights maybe please? Enlighten my ignorance because I am totally baffled.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 07:16 AM
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Originally posted by neo96


Analog stands the test of time, digital is just a fleeting moment in time, lost.





So you may agree that this Abacus device may potentially be an extremely important clue we often over look? Like how we assume they didn't have calculators such as our fancy modern TI models? But were they really that far behind us? Or is it we who are only just now catching up to them?
edit on 15-6-2013 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)
edit on 15-6-2013 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 08:00 AM
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I think it is important we keep training the kids in skills, some are sort of taught in school, like weaving, felting, sewing etc but in a minimal way, ie for a day or two, I would say teach them more skills.

As a child I was taught to knit and sew, I taught myself how to cook from about age 12, and to bake soon after, at 14 I worked in a bakers and tea room, I learned to bake bread and cakes from a master baker, there wasn't a till so I would use mental arithmetic to tally in my head each customers bill as the orders went in, for my customers and the other waitresses customers, some customers used to argue when they got to the till and I told them their bill without checking on any paper, but I was always correct, to the penny. I learned to do joined up writing as a child and can do calligraphy with my left and right hands. I practically lived in the woods and learned to make bows and arrows, climb trees and build shelters. I learned about herbs and available edible plants, I learned to gut fish and could catch and skin an animal if needed. I learned basic carpentry, gardening, wall building, making and firing items from clay, flint knapping etc., we had a coal fire and paraffin heating, I was taught the means of getting fire from both, we camped out and learned the basics of building fires and cooking outdoors. If it rained and needed to stay indoors, I would draw and paint, I am now an artist.

I think because society isn't the same as it was, I learned things in the 70's and 80's that kids these days don't often have that much access to, partly because towns aren't the same, there isn't the same level of independent traders where kids help their parents or family in their bakers, hardware store etc. kids might learn to switch on the central heating and how to use the tv and all the other remote controls and digital devices we have more than they would the other things, simply because they don't have access to it or their parents didn't learn these skills.

My son loves camping and does joined writing when he can be bothered, I teach him things he isn't taught at school about nature, he watches Bear Grylls and other survival programs where he is given more information afterwards on the things he learned. He has done basic sewing at school and got top marks, other basic things like some weaving and such like, but it isn't part of the national curriculum, it is taught on days to craft centres etc and from visiting workshops.

Kids would be more satisfied with life, if they could spend more time doing worthwhile activities, learning crafts and useful skills.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 08:00 AM
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I also didn't see anyone post this pertinent information although it was mentioned multiple times in the last few pages.


Astrolabe


An astrolabe (Greek: ἀστρολάβος astrolabos, "star-taker")[1] is an elaborate inclinometer, historically used by astronomers, navigators, and astrologers. Its many uses include locating and predicting the positions of the Sun, Moon, planets, and stars, determining local time given local latitude and vice-versa, surveying, triangulation, and to cast horoscopes.

It was used in classical antiquity, the Islamic Golden Age, the European Middle Ages and Renaissance for all these purposes. In the Islamic world, it was also used to calculate the Qibla and to find the times for Salah, prayers.

There is often confusion between the astrolabe and the mariner's astrolabe. While the astrolabe could be useful for determining latitude on land, it was an awkward instrument for use on the heaving deck of a ship or in wind. The mariner's astrolabe was developed to address these issues.


That's funny they even used it to cast horoscopes.


An early astrolabe was invented in the Hellenistic world in 150 BC and is often attributed to Hipparchus. A marriage of the planisphere and dioptra, the astrolabe was effectively an analog calculator capable of working out several different kinds of problems in spherical astronomy. Theon of Alexandria wrote a detailed treatise on the astrolabe, and Lewis (2001) argues that Ptolemy used an astrolabe to make the astronomical observations recorded in the Tetrabiblos.[7]


Note: "Often Attributed to" means we aren't exactly quite sure and this is our 'best guesstimate'.

We have to jump to several subtopics now for further clarification of what this is all about::
Planisphere
Dioptra
Hipparchus


He is considered the founder of trigonometry[1] but is most famous for his incidental discovery of precession of the equinoxes.[2]


This is massively important critical information.


For this he certainly made use of the observations and perhaps the mathematical techniques accumulated over centuries by the Chaldeans from Babylonia. He developed trigonometry and constructed trigonometric tables, and he solved several problems of spherical trigonometry. With his solar and lunar theories and his trigonometry, he may have been the first to develop a reliable method to predict solar eclipses. His other reputed achievements include the discovery of Earth's precession, the compilation of the first comprehensive star catalog of the western world, and possibly the invention of the astrolabe, also of the armillary sphere, which he used during the creation of much of the star catalogue. It would be three centuries before Claudius Ptolemaeus' synthesis of astronomy would supersede the work of Hipparchus; it is heavily dependent on it in many areas.


Note however that he drew heavily upon the "Chaldeans", which is a Greek/Hellenistic term for a culture of Semites in Babylon.


Greek astronomers used the dioptra to measure the positions of stars; both Euclid and Geminus refer to the dioptra in their astronomical works. By the time of Ptolemy (2nd century CE), it was obsolete as an astronomical instrument, having been replaced by the armillary sphere.


Armillary Sphere

We have very little information prior to this period, as most everything has been lost multiple times due to natural and man made disaster. But obviously the people of that time (300bc-0) were drawing on prior developments and making innovations etc. From what these wikis tell me, we have scant knowledge of this entire subject and these are mostly conclusions drawn from very limited sources.

Oh and one last link everyone should check out:
Eratosthenes

He was the first person to use the word "geography" in Greek and he invented the discipline of geography as we understand it.[3] He invented a system of latitude and longitude.



He was the first person to calculate the circumference of the earth...
He was the first to calculate the tilt of the Earth's axis...
He may also have accurately calculated the distance from the earth to the sun and invented the leap day.[4]
He also created the first map of the world incorporating parallels and meridians
Eratosthenes was the founder of scientific chronology; he endeavoured to fix the dates of the chief literary and political events from the conquest of Troy.


So this guy screwed up everyone's thinking by inventing our system of chronology. "This happened in X year, and that happened in Y year, on Z date".



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 08:06 AM
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reply to post by Byrd
 


I wanted to thank you for showing me Su Song's clock tower. I never knew about that and it is utterly amazing!

China's history has quickly become one of my favorite topics in recent times, Korea, Japan, and others like Siam as well. Always find something new and mind blowing.
edit on 15-6-2013 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)
edit on 15-6-2013 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 08:12 AM
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knightsofthegoldencircle.webs.com...
edit on 15-6-2013 by spikester because: photo



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 08:15 AM
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A piece from the Su Song linked above:


Yet the mechanical legacy of Su Song did not end with his work. In about 1150, the writer Xue Jixuan noted that there were four types of clocks in his day, the basic waterclock, the incense clock, the sundial, and the clock with 'revolving and snapping springs' ('gun tan').[49] The rulers of the continuing Yuan Dynasty (1279–1368 AD) had a vested interest in the advancement of mechanical clockworks.[50] The astronomer Guo Shoujing helped restore the Beijing Ancient Observatory beginning in 1276, where he crafted a water-powered armillary sphere and clock with clock jacks being fully implemented and sounding the hours.[51] Complex gearing for uniquely Chinese clockworks were continued in the Ming Dynasty (1368–1644), with new designs driven by the power of falling sand instead of water to provide motive power to the wheel drive, and some Ming clocks perhaps featured reduction gearing rather than the earlier escapement of Su Song.[12] The earliest such design of a sand-clock was made by Zhan Xiyuan around 1370, which featured not only the scoop wheel of Su Song' device, but also a new addition of a stationary dial face over which a pointer circulated, much like new European clocks of the same period.[52]


Had to post that before I run off for a bit.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 09:48 AM
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The premise implied may be that a qualification for determining the achievement level of technological advancement may be the durability of that technology or the durability of the communication of that technology. I'm not sure this has inherently or traditionally been an accepted criteria.

One of the often cited pitfalls of the speed of our technology has been the lamentable disposable nature of it. For example, it seems there will be soon significantly fewer paper books in the world than ten years ago. Floppy disks, 8-tracks and other types of storage mechanism have come and gone, replaced and sometimes forgotten.

However, if one of the actual intentions of the information was its ability to remain viable over extended periods of time, I have confidence that we can currently meet that challenge better than it has ever been met before. Again, I'm not so sure that has been routinely a goal in our age. Of course, there are indications this is changing in various areas like experts are exploring how to convey the hazards of nuclear waste for indefinite periods.

But for me, there's no question that the level of the knowledge that we currently possess and have access to is incontrovertibly far, far more advanced than at any other time. Any available evidence I'm aware of does not indicate otherwise.

It's probably a very good thing, in general, that we are pondering methods of storing that knowledge and technology so that it isn't lost and so that resets aren't so wholly complete do-overs. Preservation of advancement may turn out to be the great challenge of civilization - perhaps more so than accumulation of knowledge or the advancement itself. Because ultimately, it's going to boil down to man vs. nature and we know who always wins that contest.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 10:47 AM
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reply to post by Hadrian
 


"But for me, there's no question that the level of the knowledge that we currently possess and have access to is incontrovertibly far, far more advanced than at any other time. Any available evidence I'm aware of does not indicate otherwise."

to quote Kip . . . . Like anyone can actually know that Napoleon

This dock may have been destroyed many times and the oldest of ancient knowledge may truly be lost.
This of course is all meaningless if we ourselves are fabricating this slice of the quantum veil





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