What if Jesus and Lucifer are fallen angels (Morning Stars)?

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posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 05:45 AM
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There were two fruits that humans were not to eat of, those are the fruit of knowledge and the fruit of life.

Lucifer told them that they can the fruit of the knowledge, he told them that their eyes will be open so they can see and learn - and they were.

Jesus told them that they can have the fruit of life, he told them that the wisdom is now there to achieve it (love thy neighbour, etc. - all the things for peace and good and long health).

Jesus came to bring light into the world (Light Bringer = Lucifer). He said be a light unto the world.

Both Jesus AND Lucifer said we are Gods.

The Serpent - The Fallen Angel Lucifer(?):


Genesis 3:5
“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”



One of The Prophets of The Bible:


Psalm 82:6
“I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’


Jesus quoting this verse to confirm that it is true. The religious trying to harm Jesus for believing this verse:


John 10:30-35
"I and the Father are one.” Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? [Psalm 82:6]"


Of course, I know there will be some that cannot accept this because they were already raised to believe something different so even when you quote it from The Bible they'll try to reinterpret or find a way not to believe it. What do you think of these direct verses from The Bible?




posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 05:51 AM
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"By their fruit you shall know them" ....
Jesus isn't a fallen angel. He isn't a demon.
He expelled demons ... and a house divided can not stand.
So no .. Jesus isn't a fallen angel.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 05:53 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
"By their fruit you shall know them" ....
Jesus isn't a fallen angel. He isn't a demon.
He expelled demons ... and a house divided can not stand.
So no .. Jesus isn't a fallen angel.


You didn't respond to the information presented in this thread.

You didn't explain "The Morning Star" connection. The "Fruit of Knowledge and Life connection" which God didn't want them to give. The "ye are Gods" connection, etc..



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 05:55 AM
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From my metaphysical research into religion, I have concluded that Lucifer was 'a fallen angel', and Jesus was a messenger in this particular incarnation.

Jesus never claimed to be God for a start - he brought the message that "We are all God's". (Or have the potential to be).

Lucifer reigned across our star system with many other higher beings - however he rebelled from the good cause and decided to offer us our negative influences. He sent Satan to rule over the Earth.

According to my research, the higher councils could have stopped Lucifer earlier than they did - however from their wisdom they decided to allow Luficer to stray from the path of creation until his own actions were detrimental to him self.

According to some messages life under YAHWEH was not much different from life under the Lucifer rebellion - apart from the fact Lucifer allowed us to make our own decisions, where as YAHWEH forced us under his.

Further from my research, the other higher being ruling throughout actually realised more GOOD came from Lucifers rule than BAD - therefore he messed him self up lol.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 06:36 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Being like God and you are gods are two different intents in meaning when this was written. Even so, the one not spoken of, knows what is as well, and he will offer some truth, mixed with false to pursuade others. At that time, he gave man truth to bring about a result. His intent, was listen to me, or listen to Father. His sole task was to tempt man, he was an arc before he fell. But, since his fall, he kept his task, but not his status above.

Brother sits outside of creation, along with Father and Mother, it is not possible for him to fall nor be pursuaded by creation to go against Father, as he is perfect.
edit on 14-6-2013 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 07:04 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 

You didn't use the whole quote.

6 I said, “You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. 7 Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes.”

You also misrepresented the word elohiym. See elohiym also means rulers or judges. In english we have words that are spelled the same but have different meanings; same goes with Hebrew. Those words are called homographs.

Example: lie (untruth) and lie (prone); fair (county fair), fair (reasonable)

It depends on the translation as to which word is used. It is translated as "rulers" in the NASB and ASV. It is translated as "gods" in the ESV, KJV, NKJV, NIV, and RSV. The Hebrew word elohiym is most often translated as "god," but it is also translated into "rulers" here in Psalm 82:1. It is translated as "judges" in Exodus 22:9, "For every breach of trust, whether it is for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for clothing, or for any lost thing about which one says, ‘This is it,’ the case of both parties shall come before the judges; he whom the judges condemn shall pay double to his neighbor." We can see that the word can be used in reference to rulers and judges because they were those who had great power and authority, over life and death. Check Strong's lexicon for the definition.

Essentially, Psalm 82 is admonishing unrightous rulers in how they over look the deeds of the wicked and how they should treat people fairly. Ending with God Almighty as the ultimate judge of the nations.

When Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34, he was condemning the Pharisees as unrighteous leaders as well as confounding them, with the scriptures, about himself being the Son of God. It is illogical to think that the Pharisees believed they were gods when they were going to attack Jesus for saying he is God. The term elohiym was used as rulers or judges in this context.

Scolars who have made concordances and lexicons have gone over this for hundreds of years. You can believe what you want, it doesn't change the hebrew.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 07:34 AM
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Originally posted by Siberbat

When Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34, he was condemning the Pharisees as unrighteous leaders as well as confounding them, with the scriptures, about himself being the Son of God. It is illogical to think that the Pharisees believed they were gods when they were going to attack Jesus for saying he is God. The term elohiym was used as rulers or judges in this context.



The Bible says "In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and The Earth". God said "Let US create man in OUR image"...

Of course The Pharisees didn't believe they are Gods. The religious people never do. Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 saying "Is it not written in The Law 'I said ye are Gods'?". Jesus was using that quote to explain himself when he called himself God, but The Pharisees did not care. They didn't want to believe they are Gods and they called Jesus blasphemous for saying so.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 07:36 AM
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Here's a short article on the "morning star".

The first reference to the morning star as an individual is in Isaiah 14:12: “How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” (NIV). The KJV and NKJV both translate “morning star” as “Lucifer, son of the morning.” It is clear from the rest of the passage that Isaiah is referring to Satan’s fall from heaven (Luke 10:18). So in this case, the morning star refers to Satan. In Revelation 22:16, Jesus unmistakably identifies Himself as the morning star. Why are both Jesus and Satan described as the “morning star”?

It is interesting to note that the concept of the “morning star” is not the only concept that is applied to both Jesus and Satan. In Revelation 5:5, Jesus is referred to as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. In 1 Peter 5:8, Satan is compared to a lion, seeking someone to devour. The point is this, both Jesus and Satan, to a certain extent, have similarities to lions. Jesus is similar to a lion in that He is the King, He is royal and majestic. Satan is similar to a lion in that he seeks to devour other creatures. That is where the similarities between Jesus, Satan, and lions end, however. Jesus and Satan are like lions in very different ways.

The idea of a “bright morning star” is a star that outshines all the others. Satan, as perhaps the most beautiful creation of God, probably the most powerful of all the angels, was a bright morning star. Jesus, as God incarnate, the Lord of the universe, is THE bright and morning star. Jesus is the most holy and powerful “light” in all the universe. So, while both Jesus and Satan can be described as “bright morning stars,” in no sense is this equating Jesus and Satan. Satan is a created being. His light only exists to the extent that God created it. Jesus is the light of the world (John 9:5). Only Jesus’ light is self-existent. Satan may be a bright morning star, but he is only a poor imitation of the one true bright morning star, Jesus Christ, the light of the world.

Source



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 07:56 AM
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What IF we are ALL fallen angels?!

Maybe we come to earth only to rise with each incarnation in the physical world.

What if Jesus is the evolved "Lucifer"?

Jesus is said to be the "word". Words create knowledge and this is the fruit of the world.

Knowledge gained means you are not ignorant to the wise. Also, what you do with the knowledge is manifested into the material. It creates.

God, our father is said to be a creator, and this we can see evidence of. So, we too are creators and this too is backed up with evidence. What we create shows what kind of creator we are. Whether it reflects positively or negatively in the light is what literally matter's,

Learning what to create within is seen as a reflection by what is created abroad.

Jesus came to rectify mankind/fallen ones. He is our representative say some. With this in mind, he carries the weight and the burden for the fallen. He is to assure we all ascend with each incarnation we have on this planet in order to bring about a new creation of life.

I may be reaching as far as some are concerned but I think this above scenario fits right in with the OP.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:11 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 



The Bible says "In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and The Earth". God said "Let US create man in OUR image"...

Intresting you throw a hebrew word (translated) into an english translation. My bible does says "God" where you transposed Elohim. It's like saying, "The child played with the 'iyshown.", "The stars shine during 'iyshown." "'Iyshown" is hebrew for "ball" or "middle of the night" and "pupil", see how the meanings change?

The second part of your quote is reasonible proof for the trinity, "Let us create man in our (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) image."



Of course The Pharisees didn't believe they are Gods. The religious people never do. Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 saying "Is it not written in The Law 'I said ye are Gods'?". Jesus was using that quote to explain himself when he called himself God, but The Pharisees did not care. They didn't want to believe they are Gods and they called Jesus blasphemous for saying so.

I covered that in my prior post about the translation. Rulers and judges having power and authority.
I'm not saying I have all the answers, but is it possible you don't either?



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:22 AM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 

I'm glad you asked about the fallen angels. Angels are different creations than us. In fact, many angels could be considered in our understanding...bizzar looking. I don't think you would want to be a fallen angel as their destiny is much different than that of saved humans. As far as incarnations, I've read that man has one life to live and we will recieve one judgement. It is an interesting idea you have. Thanks for adding it.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:25 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


If you read the Bible, it's pretty clear.

Jesus created all things.

Colossians 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jesus is the Morning Star.

Lucifer is the SON OF the Morning Star.

Isaiah 14:12

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Jesus can't be one of the fallen if he created all things, even the fallen ones.


edit on 14-6-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:38 AM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 



Originally posted by MamaJ
What IF we are ALL fallen angels?!

Maybe we come to earth only to rise with each incarnation in the physical world.

What if Jesus is the evolved "Lucifer"?


I think we are fallen. The bible says that we fell from paradise (Eden).

reply to post by Siberbat
 



Originally posted by Siberbat
My bible does says "God" where you transposed Elohim.


Maybe because your Bible is not written in Hebrew (which was the original language)?


Originally posted by Siberbat
The second part of your quote is reasonible proof for the trinity, "Let us create man in our (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) image."


That is an assumption.

These verses suggest otherwise:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" - Deuteronomy 6:4

"the Father is greater than I" - John 14:28

"I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me." - John 5:30

The only evidence that Jesus is God seems to be verses like this:

"I [Jesus] and the Father are one.” - John 10:30

and that is already explained by the next few verses:

"Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[Psalm 82:6]?



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:49 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 





“Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[Psalm 82:6]?


Here's what Psalm 82:6 says...

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:51 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


What is your point? Jesus was using that verse to explain why he was calling himself God. So even to Jesus it was a good justification, but The Pharisees disagreed, just like you are....



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


I happen to have The Names of God Bible. Here is Psalm 82.

Elohim takes his place in HIS own assembly.
He pronounces judgment among the gods:

"How long are you going to judge unfairly?
How long are you going to side with wicked people?"

Defend the weak people and orphans.
Protect the rights of the oppressed and the poor.
Rescue weak and needy people.
Help them escape the power of wicked people.

Wicked people do not know or understand anything.
As they walk around in the dark, all the foundations of the Earth shake.
I said, "You are gods.
You are all sons of Elyon.
You will certainly die like humans
and fall like a prince."

Elyon? What does that word represent? It represents the uppermost God, while Elohim represents the Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Elyon is THE God that all things will be handed to by the Son of God at the end of our Aeon of dispensation of times.

Let me give you an overview from my upcoming book on the subject of baptism that might help you see clearly. Although I do not get into this subject--because it is a vast mystery unsolved--I can give you my conjecture and speculation. I have not moved this far yet into my studies, but my mind rides this wave and I know the wave is taking me to this subject eventually.

Do you think the flood happened 5000 years ago? I am assured that the flood of Genesis did happen physically. To a limited extent, that flood did happen. What might the flood be implying to us and what might the Son of God 2000 years ago be implying? All of this is symbolism for what happened before creation, not during. YES, it did happen during, but the root story is told to us in the material world to indicate what transpired in the Aeons before.

Let's go back now to the Aeons before and fit some of the more basic stories into our own frame of reference. As you have read from my writings before, Amn is the lamb. Amni is the river of life. Amnesia is the condition of the waters. Amnesty is the result of the cleansing of the flood of waters so that we can rest beside still waters in green pastures. What have I just described? For one, the process of a Shepherd (Son of God) taking us through a wilderness filled with danger and evil (Other Sons of God). The evil is the cloud covering the land and overshadowing the light, which is necessary to keep the sun from setting the clay too soon. Water keeps the clay soft and clouds provide the storms that all this to be possible. What happens when a flood of water comes from the clouds? If you know the key, you know the excluded middle. Each of us represent a drop of rain. We are the Dew. We descend from above and are distilled back again when the sun shines. The FLOOD is our involution into the material world. The SON OF GOD (MORNING STAR) is the Shepherd of this process, but as we know from Genesis 6, the Wathcers rebelled. The process was interrupted and the FLOOD occurred shortly after to wipe the evil from the Earth. The Watchers are in darkness (Amnesia). They are involved with us here in this place and are likely our corrupt leaders. Light reveals what it hits and the Son of God is the witness and advocate through the Sons of Light.

The Son of God (Christ) willingly became the bridge across the waters. Picture a cross in your mind. The longest part is the river of life. The arms of the cross represents the bridge across the waters, with both hands nailed to either side, so that the Sons of God can return to the most high. There are 'people', who are Earth Dwellers and there are Sons. We are here, both righteous and wicked, together in one place. The flood is Elijah preparing the way and you can see this from 1 Kings 17 when he shuts off the Dew and Rain. He then demonstrates Baptism, which is the involution of the fallen Darkness into the water so that he can rise to new life and be cleansed. In the end, many aspects of this evil will remain and be divided. Within each of us, this duality of Darkness and light is involved into our natures. Eyes Wide Open...

Enoch One

1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said −Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come.

The flood is us and Christ was involved with us (His Willing Sacrifice) to bridge the gap in the river of life. We entered the flood waters and raging stream because of our fall from Heaven (Still Waters). Christ came with us willingly as the Son of God. Since we are in an image, the Morning Star must always have a mirror within the duality of free will. This is a struggle between the two wills. That struggle is ours to overcome.

One third of Heaven fell. Are you in a fallen place now? Then rise as the Psalm above tells you. It even tells you how.

Remember, some 'People' are Earth dwellers and some are Sons. We cannot know the difference. You might entertain an Angel and not know it. You may be that Angel. The point is to practice true religion. Remember, Revelation was written to the ANGELS of the Churches and not the congregation of the earth. We are fighting here with principalities and powers and rulers of darkness and light. God is the most high above them all and created the entire universe for the purpose of rising to new life. He is the new life at the top.

James 1:27

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

God rewards us with the gift and the gift is the present (TIME). Faith makes things possible, not easy.


edit on 14-6-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:54 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


My point is that Jesus was telling them that they were all children of God.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:06 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 



Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by arpgme
 


My point is that Jesus was telling them that they were all children of God.


Yes, but that was not my point. My focus was the "ye are Gods" part which Jesus agreed with and accepted himself.

reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Free-will is being able to do what you want. If you can't do what you want then someone is imposing on your free-will.

Now if you claim that , "Satan" is going against free-will because you can't completely disregard the physical nature - then I would say it was God who put you here in the first place. That is what you believe, right?

Also, it would be impossible to completely serve God or Satan if this is a physical vs spiritual battle. No matter how materialistic you are, most people still have a sense of compassion or someone they love. So they have "SOME" spiritual essence even if it is a little bit, and of course you can't be completely spiritual either because you still have to regard the physical body.

I'd rather not live in duality separating it as "spiritual vs material". The spiritual and material are ONE. All is energy.
edit on 14-6-2013 by arpgme because: (no reason given)
edit on 14-6-2013 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:18 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 





Yes, but that was not my point. My focus was the "ye are Gods" part which Jesus agreed with and accepted himself.


Basically, Jesus was telling them that he was indeed God and that they were all his children.

Let's look at some of the previous verses in John, chapter 10.

John 10:26-28

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


*His* sheep. Not all sheep.

Jesus is called "The Lamb of God". What is a Lamb? What is a Sheep?

We are all the same thing, but we do not all act the same way. (This is even true of Christians - different personalities).





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