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Examining the Gender Status of Islamic Women
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The whole point of the veil clothing is to conceal their sexuality which represents atonement for some mythical transgresion. This idea already casts
the female into false disadvantage. Because the men and women are treated like this more rules were needed.
By the way it is considered to a great insult to say Allah has daughters even though he did.
During the battle of Al-Jamal, Mohammed heard the news that the people of Persia had made the daughter of Khosrau their ruler. On this, he said, “A nation that makes a woman their ruler will never succeed.” Bukhari hadith 9, 88, 219
By the way it is considered to a great insult to say Allah has daughters even though he did.
iT IS EVIL TO SUGGEST THAT ALLAH HAS ANY PARTNERS, BUT IT IS EVEN WORSE TO IMPLY THAT ALLAH HAS DAUGHTERS.
16:57 Glory be to Him! They wish for sons, and they say that Allah has daughters [the Meccans considered the angels to be the daughters of Allah]. If they receive news that they have a daughter, their face darkens and they are filled with anguish. They hide themselves from their people in shame. Should they keep the child in shame or simply bury it? What an evil choice they make for themselves. 17:40 What? Has your Lord honored you by giving you sons while He has taken for Himself daughters from among the angels? Truly, you say a dreadful thing.
( THE ISLAMIC DOCTRINE OF WOMEN, Bill Warner, 2010, p13)
the wife’s marital obligations It is obligatory for a woman to let her husband have sex with her immediately when he asks her; at home; and if she can physically endure it.
( THE ISLAMIC DOCTRINE OF WOMEN, Bill Warner, 2010, p24)
Please elaborate on this, Im not really sure what it means.
Peace, NRE.
Peace, NRE.
reply to post by NoRegretsEver
It means that the men are using cruel religion to beat down the slave women. It's all so messed up.
It means that the men are using cruel religion to beat down the slave women. It's all so messed up.
Ahhhh... now I see, I thought that might have been it, but I wasnt sure.
And to the thread, yes it is awful, but since I know were cool I will elaborate on my opinion.
I am fully aware of the harm and degradation that is done to woman as a woman myself, these things are seen from all aspects no matter where you live, or your religion.
I have always wondered what it was like living in a place that frowned against most things that woman did, but especially how they are portrayed without identity in the outside world. Yet I cant help but wonder, as we live in a society that is just as degrading, except in a different sense.
Woman are free to wear what they want, and live where they choose, but here too they are degraded by using woman as an item, something to gawk at, the less they wear the further they get type of situation. Woman in the west spend millions of dollars to "enhance" themselves, and believe me if you are a woman there is no way that you are "enhancing" anything just for yourself.
I watched a documentary about Islamic woman and how they feel about what they go through and most have said that its better than woman half naked in the west.
Maybe one day we can see woman for who they are on the inside, whether here or there, but treated with respect, because as most know woman are stronger than most think
Peace, NRE.
And to the thread, yes it is awful, but since I know were cool I will elaborate on my opinion.
I am fully aware of the harm and degradation that is done to woman as a woman myself, these things are seen from all aspects no matter where you live, or your religion.
I have always wondered what it was like living in a place that frowned against most things that woman did, but especially how they are portrayed without identity in the outside world. Yet I cant help but wonder, as we live in a society that is just as degrading, except in a different sense.
Woman are free to wear what they want, and live where they choose, but here too they are degraded by using woman as an item, something to gawk at, the less they wear the further they get type of situation. Woman in the west spend millions of dollars to "enhance" themselves, and believe me if you are a woman there is no way that you are "enhancing" anything just for yourself.
I watched a documentary about Islamic woman and how they feel about what they go through and most have said that its better than woman half naked in the west.
Maybe one day we can see woman for who they are on the inside, whether here or there, but treated with respect, because as most know woman are stronger than most think
Peace, NRE.
reply to post by NoRegretsEver
But at least it's a choice...you are free to wear a burka in the West if you want it. If you want to be sexualized as an object...you can do that too. Some women like being looked at, admired for their beauty. Not all women are uncomfortable with their bodies.
Ultimately...it's a choice. However objectified or "gawked" at...the opportunities to be something more are there...it is up to you.
You can argue all you want...but there are far less opportunities for women in Islam...especially in Islamic countries.
Woman are free to wear what they want, and live where they choose, but here too they are degraded by using woman as an item, something to gawk at, the less they wear the further they get type of situation.
But at least it's a choice...you are free to wear a burka in the West if you want it. If you want to be sexualized as an object...you can do that too. Some women like being looked at, admired for their beauty. Not all women are uncomfortable with their bodies.
Ultimately...it's a choice. However objectified or "gawked" at...the opportunities to be something more are there...it is up to you.
You can argue all you want...but there are far less opportunities for women in Islam...especially in Islamic countries.
reply to post by NoRegretsEver
That was very well written. Sadly I think that what we would hope to happen never will. In that place the rot has set for ever more because in that place it is the core innate human nature, originating in minds that will never change.
That was very well written. Sadly I think that what we would hope to happen never will. In that place the rot has set for ever more because in that place it is the core innate human nature, originating in minds that will never change.
reply to post by MarioOnTheFly
If you get down to it...which religion condones under age marriage, and who is the object here. They sell their daughters, promise them to old men, cover their faces and have to be obedient to their "masters"...
I know that proponents of Islam don't like it...but there is no denying it...women are and always will be subordinate to men. Second class citizens. And Islam is proud of that tradition. At least the west is trying to get out of the stone age. Perhaps were not there yet...but looking at women's rights couple of hundred years ago...I'd say...west is slowly making progress.
using woman as an item
If you get down to it...which religion condones under age marriage, and who is the object here. They sell their daughters, promise them to old men, cover their faces and have to be obedient to their "masters"...
I know that proponents of Islam don't like it...but there is no denying it...women are and always will be subordinate to men. Second class citizens. And Islam is proud of that tradition. At least the west is trying to get out of the stone age. Perhaps were not there yet...but looking at women's rights couple of hundred years ago...I'd say...west is slowly making progress.
reply to post by Tindalos2013
I would never say never to that one. There is always a time and a place. I know that I have to say that to myself as all of the atrocities that have happened in the past, the one to woman seems to be the longest lasting in almost any period in time.
So I ask, what do you think can be done? Can the free, set the course for change?
If there had to be an example set for these woman to rise up, to be free, who would you suggest can set that example?
Peace, NRE.
I would never say never to that one. There is always a time and a place. I know that I have to say that to myself as all of the atrocities that have happened in the past, the one to woman seems to be the longest lasting in almost any period in time.
So I ask, what do you think can be done? Can the free, set the course for change?
If there had to be an example set for these woman to rise up, to be free, who would you suggest can set that example?
Peace, NRE.
reply to post by MarioOnTheFly
Dont misunderstand, I am in no way saying there is a similarity towards "how" woman are treated there, and how woman are treated here. I am speaking of woman in general and how they feel about themselves.
Woman have set it here and there that men set the standard, and that is the only similarities that I see. Woman have to stand up for themselves no matter where they are, womans rights, and the right for them to vote, came because woman stuck up for themselves, not because a man decided with the stroke a pen that it is so.
Peace, NRE.
Dont misunderstand, I am in no way saying there is a similarity towards "how" woman are treated there, and how woman are treated here. I am speaking of woman in general and how they feel about themselves.
Woman have set it here and there that men set the standard, and that is the only similarities that I see. Woman have to stand up for themselves no matter where they are, womans rights, and the right for them to vote, came because woman stuck up for themselves, not because a man decided with the stroke a pen that it is so.
Peace, NRE.
There are leftists and liberals in the UK who waffle on about how there is nothing to fear from Islam and it is a religion of "peace"
www.bbc.co.uk...
Check this out right, in the UK, not Afghanistan, Pakistan etc-a small number of muslims wanted to have rooms where women and gays could pray (the article says "group", which could be about 4)
Look at the response
"Imam Adnan Rashid, from the London-based Islamic think-tank The Hittin Institute, said: "The orthodox values of Islam are very clear.
"Muslims already believe in things that have been established for them for centuries and they are not going change.
"The Koran is not going to change, the prophetic position is not going to change. Muslim thinking and practices are not going to change.
"So I don't know what the point of this mosque is."[i/]
"The BBC contacted Islamic groups which represent institutions and places of worship in the UK, including two of the largest - The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) and the Mosque and Imams National Advisory Board (MINAB).
They both declined to comment.
The Lancashire Council of Mosques, which represents about 60 mosques, also failed to respond. "
and, JUST for setting up this initiative, in the UK, these few followers of the "religion of peace"...
"At the IMI meeting in north London nobody wants to be named for fear of repercussions from the community. "
incredible
www.bbc.co.uk...
Check this out right, in the UK, not Afghanistan, Pakistan etc-a small number of muslims wanted to have rooms where women and gays could pray (the article says "group", which could be about 4)
Look at the response
"Imam Adnan Rashid, from the London-based Islamic think-tank The Hittin Institute, said: "The orthodox values of Islam are very clear.
"Muslims already believe in things that have been established for them for centuries and they are not going change.
"The Koran is not going to change, the prophetic position is not going to change. Muslim thinking and practices are not going to change.
"So I don't know what the point of this mosque is."[i/]
"The BBC contacted Islamic groups which represent institutions and places of worship in the UK, including two of the largest - The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) and the Mosque and Imams National Advisory Board (MINAB).
They both declined to comment.
The Lancashire Council of Mosques, which represents about 60 mosques, also failed to respond. "
and, JUST for setting up this initiative, in the UK, these few followers of the "religion of peace"...
"At the IMI meeting in north London nobody wants to be named for fear of repercussions from the community. "
incredible
...and the people who organised it did not want to be named for fear of "reprisal" from the fellow followers of "the religion of peace"
Yet still, clowns will make relativist comments with Christianity.........
Yet still, clowns will make relativist comments with Christianity.........
reply to post by NoRegretsEver
You might get a face full of acid for that one...back east.
Woman have to stand up for themselves no matter where they are
You might get a face full of acid for that one...back east.
reply to post by MarioOnTheFly
What would happen if I said that in a stadium full of men at the Super Bowl?
Standing ovation? Who do you think would be the first person to tell me to take my top off?
Peace, NRE.
What would happen if I said that in a stadium full of men at the Super Bowl?
Standing ovation? Who do you think would be the first person to tell me to take my top off?
Peace, NRE.
Here is some further excerpts from the Islamic Doctrine of Women for clarification of what written force is behind the mind set.
This and alot of other writings are considered eternal and perfect and in variation are proclaimed with extreme zeal with no room for civil understanding between their nation and the rest of the world.
It is considered that the highest achievement a woman can attain is motherhood. And thats as good as it gets for the women. And despite the noble sentiment of it, it hardly offsets the abuse that is set upon them via 'sacred' laws. That is why the situation will never change. It is set and done. savvy.
A hadith, or tradition, is a brief story about what Mohammed did or said. A collection of hadiths is called a Hadith.
...the Trilogy is the Koran, the Sira and the Hadith. Most people think that the Koran is the bible of Islam, but it is only about 14% of the total textual doctrine. The Trilogy is the foundation and totality of Islam.
The Koran defines the Kafir and Kafir is not a neutral word. A Kafir is not merely someone who does not agree with Islam, but a Kafir is evil, disgusting, the lowest form of life. Kafirs can be deceived, hated, enslaved, tortured, killed, lied to and cheated. So the usual word “unbeliever” does not refl ect the political reality of Islam.
HERE ARE A FEW OF THE KORAN REFERENCES:
a KAFIR CAN BE MOCKED—
83:34 On that day the faithful will mock the Kafirs, while they sit on bridal couches and watch them. Should not the Kafirs be paid back for what they did?
a KAFIR CAN BE BEHEADED—
47:4 When you encounter the Kafirs on the battlefield, cut off their heads until you have thoroughly defeated them and then take the prisoners and tie them up firmly.
a KAFIR CAN BE PLOTTED AGAINST—
86:15 They plot and scheme against you [Mohammed], and I plot and scheme against them. Therefore, deal calmly with the Kafirs and leave them alone for a while.
a KAFIR CAN BE TERRORIZED—
8:12 Then your Lord spoke to His angels and said, “I will be with you. Give strength to the believers. I will send terror into the Kafirs’ hearts,cut off their heads and even the tips of their fingers!”
This and alot of other writings are considered eternal and perfect and in variation are proclaimed with extreme zeal with no room for civil understanding between their nation and the rest of the world.
It is considered that the highest achievement a woman can attain is motherhood. And thats as good as it gets for the women. And despite the noble sentiment of it, it hardly offsets the abuse that is set upon them via 'sacred' laws. That is why the situation will never change. It is set and done. savvy.
Originally posted by NoRegretsEver
I watched a documentary about Islamic woman and how they feel about what they go through and most have said that its better than woman half naked in the west..
They said that because thats what the muslim men have told them to think. If they were free of the heavy influence of the men and the religion, and if they actually saw how women in the west lived, I bet they'd think differently.
Originally posted by NoRegretsEver
reply to post by MarioOnTheFly
What would happen if I said that in a stadium full of men at the Super Bowl?
Standing ovation? Who do you think would be the first person to tell me to take my top off?
Peace, NRE.
I don't get it...even in America...you wouldn't get beaten or attacked. Defo no acid will come your way...
Why do you want to force an opinion that it's the same everywhere...when it's not.
If I were a woman...and I have a choice...I wouldn't want to live in Islamic community. Simply because I have tasted some of the freedom...I couldn't go back anymore. Can't go back to the stone age.
I can understand Islamic women. They know no better. They've been raised to be subservient. Their minds molded from early age to be...slaves. To be the commodity to be traded or given away.
The only place Islamic women have been able to rise a bit is the west. Even they have rights...in the west.
reply to post by Tindalos2013
the wife’s marital obligations It is obligatory for a woman to let her husband have sex with her immediately when he asks her; at home; and if she can physically endure it. ( THE ISLAMIC DOCTRINE OF WOMEN, Bill Warner, 2010, p24)
So this must be how the "I have a headache, not now dear" got started...
reply to post by MarioOnTheFly
You might get a face full of acid for that one...back east.
What part of back east are u speaking of? New York?
So you'll be cherry picking various hadiths and verses in order to prove your point? Pathetic. But I shouldn't expect more from you people.
Honestly, I'm tired of trying to explain what my religion is actually about, but every bloody time I see another thread with all these verses and
hadiths picked out only to slander others, I lose all my hope in humanity. I thought this site had a slogan: "Deny Ignorance". You have been looking
at a one sided argument the whole time, and you have the audacity to claim this is the "truth". Pathetic. Simply pathetic. I can provide countless
verses and sources if you like and perhaps refute some of your "hadith". Just give me a while.
I find the Christian religion and the Muslim religion have much in common, and it is not surprising that cultures which are based on these focus on
each other- we notice that which reflects ourselves most in life.
In the Bible, one finds just as much sexist verses... and some christians take them to the letter and some don't, and some individuals live with oppression and some don't.
But if you want to focus on the culture, and the types of values and ideas it expresses in it's art and media, than the western world can't do much better than Islam.
There is some interesting things to discuss if one considers the deeper psychological- symbolic differences in these cultures and their attitudes towards women.
Like- if you consider that the female can symbolize the material/physical world (as opposed to the mental/intellectual world) then while seeing what these religions have in common is apparent (a belief that the intellect and mental objectification should be dominant over the body and the world of physical objects)
while their difference lies in the values surrounding the way one should put forth and show what physical/material objects one possesses or not. Obviously Americans feel one should show them off- exaggerate them even, let the world see your wealth and power over the physical.
The Muslims feel one shouldn't parade it, they should stay discrete, not advertise their wealth. Partly because that encourages one to raise it to a higher level of importance with time (perhaps passing up the intellect and mental objects eventually) and because it stirs envy and jealousy in others. You risk losing what you have then.
In some ways, amongst ourselves, the american Protestant values work, because we can all agree that having been blessed with material wealth is an outward sign that we have been hardworking ethical people- God has approved, and anyone can gain that if they try hard enough.
We can agree not to attack each other and steal each others wealth.
But their view, IMO, applies more readily to the general human nature- humans will be stirred to envy and to attack when they see someone else has more. We can see it in primates. Our showing off is bound to attract invasion and attack.
It does tend to end up leading us to worship material things and power eventually- the signs of a blessing from God have become God itself instead.
I don't know, I just find a deeper analyzation interesting to do. Like I said, these are larger cultural movements- I totally experience that individuals can live within cultures and escape being trapped within their values and practices, so I don't take it that seriously.
In the Bible, one finds just as much sexist verses... and some christians take them to the letter and some don't, and some individuals live with oppression and some don't.
But if you want to focus on the culture, and the types of values and ideas it expresses in it's art and media, than the western world can't do much better than Islam.
There is some interesting things to discuss if one considers the deeper psychological- symbolic differences in these cultures and their attitudes towards women.
Like- if you consider that the female can symbolize the material/physical world (as opposed to the mental/intellectual world) then while seeing what these religions have in common is apparent (a belief that the intellect and mental objectification should be dominant over the body and the world of physical objects)
while their difference lies in the values surrounding the way one should put forth and show what physical/material objects one possesses or not. Obviously Americans feel one should show them off- exaggerate them even, let the world see your wealth and power over the physical.
The Muslims feel one shouldn't parade it, they should stay discrete, not advertise their wealth. Partly because that encourages one to raise it to a higher level of importance with time (perhaps passing up the intellect and mental objects eventually) and because it stirs envy and jealousy in others. You risk losing what you have then.
In some ways, amongst ourselves, the american Protestant values work, because we can all agree that having been blessed with material wealth is an outward sign that we have been hardworking ethical people- God has approved, and anyone can gain that if they try hard enough.
We can agree not to attack each other and steal each others wealth.
But their view, IMO, applies more readily to the general human nature- humans will be stirred to envy and to attack when they see someone else has more. We can see it in primates. Our showing off is bound to attract invasion and attack.
It does tend to end up leading us to worship material things and power eventually- the signs of a blessing from God have become God itself instead.
I don't know, I just find a deeper analyzation interesting to do. Like I said, these are larger cultural movements- I totally experience that individuals can live within cultures and escape being trapped within their values and practices, so I don't take it that seriously.
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