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Santa Monica Gunmen's weapon assembled in bedroom??

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posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:24 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


It's not really a "loophole." He essentially manufactured his own lower. Calling it a loophole would be like calling being able to purchase a square block of aluminum a "loophole."

He was denied purchase of a gun in 2006 because of his background. Owning a true functioning AR is illegal in California, the magazines are illegal in California (to purchase or transfer...those owned before the law were grandfarthered in). Many of those "30 rounders" displayed were blocked to 5 round limits.

SO what did he do when it was illegal to own the gun? He made his own. Those blue mags were altered simmunition (essentially ramped up painball for training) mags he modified.

Go to show that gun control laws won't stop a person bent on murder.




posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:29 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 



The fact that your fear is coming from an object you were apparently wholly ignorant of just hours ago should serve some indication of the sincerity and value of that outrage.


Assumptions like that are badly misplaced. I'm alright with the laws and regulations that have existed on the Federal level for decades. Which is to say, hardly any at all when it really comes down to it. People often mistake their own state's over-reach for a Federal one. As evidenced in the Midwest by the near open nature of everything related to firearms and the truly common sense approach, it isn't Feds and never has been. The ATF regulation sheet literally takes one page. A number of states have whole books.

The federal ones ...what Obama wants added not withstanding...have been through the Constitutional test at least once and in many cases, multiple times before the Supreme Court. I do respect and accept the rulings of the High Court. I mean, it's not optional in America. It's how our system is designed to function and it's how the law is set.

They're also pretty handy at striking down the states that get out of hand when they get a chance to...but there is the problem. They can only act on what is brought to them. DC vs. Heller and Mcdonald vs. Chicago both set some very positive precedent in that area. Again, I'm good with that level. The idea of guns being 100% and totally without regulation is, again, patently insane to my view. There need not be but a few and to fit a single page in length...but those few are awfully important.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 




I'm of the belief that if you want parts for a weapon and you order it on-line, it should be sent to a FFL dealer (Usually a sporting goods store). At least that way there would be a return policy at a minimum.




I disagree. Go through an FFL for a replacement spring? Firing pin? Replacement handguards? New sights?

This case demonstrates the principle that banning objects don't work as the criminal and murderous arounds us will always find work arounds.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

The ATF regulation sheet literally takes one page.


One page too long.


The idea of guns being 100% and totally without regulation is, again, patently insane to my view.


Fundamental disagreement. Not in my view. It's simple harmless property. Laws against inanimate objects are absurd.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


Tis the morning for some mild disagreement it seems. Generally I see the same as the other gun rights supporters here.

However, I have never held a position that NO regulation should exist on firearms and I never will. The attitude of having tons of regulation or absolutely none with nothing fair between.....is just crazy.

The established mentally ill shouldn't have a firearm or ability to ever own one. Violent or repeat felons, in my view, should not own or ever have the ability to own a firearm. As two examples. Basically, the federal regulations as they stand now and have for a few decades with a little correction, perhaps, to some very liberal exceptions made over the years on things like convicts on major felony crimes. (I was SHOCKED to find how many states don't care about felony convictions anymore and allow gun ownership anyway). The basic set of regs work pretty well for common sense in my view and have, all this time.


Included with all that, as I had understood it, was the need to register (at time of manufacture/creation) and include a serial number on every functional firearm not exempt by age or special collector status. I simply haven't had the time to really look into this on the 80% rifles but something still seems odd on all that. Anyway, whatever the case.....The ability to buy every last item to build a complete AR-15 rifle from retail outlets without ever filing out paperwork or seeing an FFL in the standard procedure stikes me as fundamentally flawed and frankly, insane.

Unfortunately, it's a dandy way for the anti-gun side to look, see a REAL issue that most average people, like myself for instance, can actually agree on and then take the agreement of an inch and run it a mile. It's a real bad spot this creates...because they will fix this. Especially with a shooting likely having now happened in a high profile way as a result of it....and by someone with a psychiatric history, at that. They'll never JUST fix this one thing that may well need it without hurting 20 other things too..and that's the problem.
edit on 14-6-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)


But you might as well ban unregistered sales of blocks of aluminum because that would be a 0% lower and the same technical skills and equipment access could let one create their own lower. At some point, we have to recognize the lack of effect that banning and regulating objects has.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:44 AM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 


You can call a spade a pick axe... but it's still a spade to everyone else. After having a chance to look at these and actually see what California is so pissed about. I DO see their point, given their state laws. Now here in Missouri, we have true full automatic weapons on the gun show tables and right up to M-249 machine guns. That is what federal allows....with the Class III of course. It's a world apart and I live in Missouri, not California for a number of reasons. That would be among them.

However, when in Rome, as they say...and Cali does have their little issues for those who willingly live there. That's a personal issue for those who choose the state.

Tell me how this is anything but the proverbial spade though.


AR-15 20rd "Repair Kit" to bypass Cali magazine law
That's so blatant, I can see why they are hopping mad.

....and I was with ya on the 80% thing as not really knowing what that was about. I'd even be with you in this example which follows on the link......until getting to the bottom 1/3rd of the page.

80% AR-15 Lower Receiver

Block of aluminum? Yeah... That's playing extremely creative with the wording when the kit to line the drill up and just follow instructions with an afternoon to spare gets you what you can't own there. A fully functional AR-15 lower receiver.

There is a lot to be said for living in a state where games like that aren't necessary. It would probably be a lot better all around though if people who want to own a good rifle just left the state that is determined to keep them illegal forever. There is still a good % of the nation who don't outlaw them.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:00 AM
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The thing with the 80% lowers is just BS.

Just look up "Pakistani Darra made guns". you can't tell me Americans can not build guns at home as good as these people if they had to.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


You can call a spade a pick axe... but it's still a spade to everyone else. After having a chance to look at these and actually see what California is so pissed about. I DO see their point, given their state laws. Now here in Missouri, we have true full automatic weapons on the gun show tables and right up to M-249 machine guns. That is what federal allows....with the Class III of course. It's a world apart and I live in Missouri, not California for a number of reasons. That would be among them.

However, when in Rome, as they say...and Cali does have their little issues for those who willingly live there. That's a personal issue for those who choose the state.

Tell me how this is anything but the proverbial spade though.


AR-15 20rd "Repair Kit" to bypass Cali magazine law
That's so blatant, I can see why they are hopping mad.

....and I was with ya on the 80% thing as not really knowing what that was about. I'd even be with you in this example which follows on the link......until getting to the bottom 1/3rd of the page.

80% AR-15 Lower Receiver

Block of aluminum? Yeah... That's playing extremely creative with the wording when the kit to line the drill up and just follow instructions with an afternoon to spare gets you what you can't own there. A fully functional AR-15 lower receiver.

There is a lot to be said for living in a state where games like that aren't necessary. It would probably be a lot better all around though if people who want to own a good rifle just left the state that is determined to keep them illegal forever. There is still a good % of the nation who don't outlaw them.


But can you realize how silly it is to ban springs and metal boxes I would humbly suggest. That is all that those mag rebuild kits are.

So, with the knowhow and equipment you can turn an 80% lower into a functional lower in a day...you can do the same with a solid block of aluminum within a week. As noted above, in the UK criminals are manufacturing sten guns from muffler parts.

This case demonstrates quite clearly, IMHO, that the laws banning objects don't keep criminals disarmed and only affect those who would follow the law in the first place.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:25 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


I get your position. The problem is... We don't live in a nation that agrees with it. It's one thing if Congress..or the President go too far. It's not 'too far' when the Supreme Court is also in agreement, as they do, quite literally, set the laws of the land and beyond appeal. They are the last stage of appeal. Thankfully that's worked out well. Things like Heller went our way.

I'll never understand the approach of "all or nothing" on gun laws tho. The position that there must be absolutely no regulation of any kind, in any way. That's reading the law as badly as those who were trying to say the 2nd only allowed a National Guard type Militia. Either extreme here is bad. Neither extreme is supported by consistent interpretation of the Constitution by the one body in our system that is charged with doing that. The Super Court.

In the case of pushing for nothing at all and settling for nothing short of NO laws ..well, that's likely to invite the ALL part of the all or nothing proposition faster than anything. Then we'll spend the next generation fighting back from that overkill through the courts where it never really should have been, IMO.

I spent a bit of time looking up that 80% thing though since it took me a bit by surprise. I even found a step by step illustrated guide to precisely how to do it. It's as bad as I'd feared. My 13yr old could not only buy this, technically without any legal issues ...but it IS well within his technical ability at this stage of life to fully complete the work on it. That was absolutely not what I was hoping to find. I really hoped to see it required some skills or machining ability to do properly. No such luck when the whole thing is a 'color within the lines' sort of template.


How do I finish a lower?
You do not need to have any machining experience in order to finish our 80% lower receivers. If you rent time on a CNC machine at a machine shop that hosts 80% lower “build parties”, finishing your lower is as simple as turning a couple bolts and pressing the “start” button on the CNC mill.
Source

....and here is what it takes to convert the 'aluminum block' into the full receiver if you don't have access to the above equipment to just put it in the blocks and press 'start' (I'm still trying to get over that...)

Illustrated guide for the step by step on 80% to 100% functional firearm

I'd say irreconcilable differences is right given that and the idea that anyone is fine with it being available to buy at any age with no restrictions of any kind, for anyone. It is legal to make. I saw that on the ATF site as well. It'll never be legal to sell or transfer (No Serial means it's yours for life by how I read that) but it's legal to make ...unless the finished product violates local law. Apparently a different magazine release satisfies California's technical points on that part of it. Learn something new every day. Yes, indeed. Sometimes I just wish I hadn't.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Silly on banning the magazines? Of course it is.... Again, I live in a state where it's 100% open, legal and in no danger of changing. I wouldn't move to a state where it's not legal. That's the thing...

I was talking to Tdawg about this yesterday and I really have no problem with parts assembly at all. It's a great and economic way to build out a rifle. My SOLE issue here ....but it's a BIG one... is that the part is 100% and totally without any controls or even age restriction. You have to have someone with a ring of keys unlock an armored cage in California for a can of spray paint. No kidding..you really do! ...but a kid can buy this and spend half a day with common power tools to have the same functional rifle I owned after apparently being a big sucker in purchasing it properly and legally from an FFL. It just kinda floors me on that point.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Silly on banning the magazines? Of course it is.... Again, I live in a state where it's 100% open, legal and in no danger of changing. I wouldn't move to a state where it's not legal. That's the thing...

I was talking to Tdawg about this yesterday and I really have no problem with parts assembly at all. It's a great and economic way to build out a rifle. My SOLE issue here ....but it's a BIG one... is that the part is 100% and totally without any controls or even age restriction. You have to have someone with a ring of keys unlock an armored cage in California for a can of spray paint. No kidding..you really do! ...but a kid can buy this and spend half a day with common power tools to have the same functional rifle I owned after apparently being a big sucker in purchasing it properly and legally from an FFL. It just kinda floors me on that point.


But what would be the limit? 80% lower? 50% lower? 25% lower? 0% lower block of aluminum ban?



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 10:00 AM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Well, before someone came up with this idea, it was a pretty simple thing. The lower was the firearm, hence, the part needing the purchase by the regulations, ergo, a kid wasn't going to mail order it and play rambo by morning after it delivers.

I don't really care what part is chosen since they did pretty well make the lower a moot point here. It just seems ridiculous that 99% of the firearms in the nation require the standard B.S. we've always had, at least my whole life, to buy ....except THIS one. Okay, maybe there are a few others I haven't heard about either, but you get my point.

Selling private party is a whole different matter and guns sell by classified ads for face to face parking lot sales here. 100% legal. No problem. It's private party and how that ought to be....but buying retail? No nothing? No age, no background call to NICS...absolutely nothing whatsoever but an afternoon with a power drill to have the full working rifle? I'm literally sitting here baffled at how I seem to be the only one that sees a problem with this picture??



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Just to further upset you: man turns shovel into AK-47 , AK build parties

Parts kits and folding metal. No NICS, no serial numbers, no nothing but hand tools and time.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Well, before someone came up with this idea, it was a pretty simple thing. The lower was the firearm, hence, the part needing the purchase by the regulations, ergo, a kid wasn't going to mail order it and play rambo by morning after it delivers.

I don't really care what part is chosen since they did pretty well make the lower a moot point here. It just seems ridiculous that 99% of the firearms in the nation require the standard B.S. we've always had, at least my whole life, to buy ....except THIS one. Okay, maybe there are a few others I haven't heard about either, but you get my point.

Selling private party is a whole different matter and guns sell by classified ads for face to face parking lot sales here. 100% legal. No problem. It's private party and how that ought to be....but buying retail? No nothing? No age, no background call to NICS...absolutely nothing whatsoever but an afternoon with a power drill to have the full working rifle? I'm literally sitting here baffled at how I seem to be the only one that sees a problem with this picture??


I think it is because we can see the potential for creeping incrementalism. 80% lower now, 25% lower later, and still later you have to register a 6x8 inch aluminum blank.

Also, this train of thought leads to tighter control on parts. If they can't ban guns outright, how about banning repair parts and let the rifles wear out. FFL for a new bolt? Set of springs? Sights? It woud be a horrible idea just to pass a feel good measure that would not stop any criminal.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


I get your position. The problem is... We don't live in a nation that agrees with it.


I dont really care if my neighbors or the nation dont agree with it.

Simple, other people are not your property. Stop trying to nanny them all and stop making excuses to rationalize the nannying of others.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 10:31 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


There is nothing at all upsetting about that. I really got a kick out of the AK from a shovel video and have a copy of it in my off line archive. My kid can't buy and then replicate that process without help or being discovered. That would be the difference....and it's a world of difference. That actually takes a bit of skill. Pee Wee Herman could manage the 80% solution on a bad day. (shudders)
edit on 14-6-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Then you didnt look into the AK parties very much.

Your kid can operate a vice and a hammer, right? Then he can fold an AK receiver. Rivets arent needed. He can hold it up with bolts.

And the blanks for AK receivers are a hell of a lot cheaper. $20-$50 each.

edit on 14-6-2013 by thisguyrighthere because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


I think we'd probably be better just agreeing to disagree here.... Like you pointed out yourself. We have differences in how we view the fundamentals of how the United States system of law and Constitutional interpretation all comes about. Profound differences. I believe the specific points are small to the 98% I fully agree with...but they are, in this discussion, tantamount to Mt. Everest. This is really sliding downhill pretty quick I think. We're both better than to keep going down with it, IMO.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 10:38 AM
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The thing about building a bolt together 0% AR lower from blocks of aluminum or steel is that people could build two extra pieces that hold the trigger group and drill them for the full auto parts.
Very cheap way to get a full auto AR and to hide the parts would be no problem.

I know there are 10,000s of old drop in sear kit ARs out there but almost none have ever been used in crimes,



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 10:44 AM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 

Oh, I get your side and it's what makes it such a difficult spot for me to reconcile. It would have been so much easier if someone hadn't thought up a solution to just barely skirt the firearm laws while staying a hair inside them with this thing.

They are going to do something about this. You have to see that too. Prior to some nut case in California going postal in public with one of them? Probably not...It wasn't a public issue and I'm sure they were happy that it NOT be more widely known than it already was. Now? Nothing left to lose and I'll bet ..for my reaction as a gun owner and regular shooter myself? The Anti-Gunners must be going into outright fits over this.

I think the mere existence of this as a problem in a retail sales package makes a bad situation we'd probably ALL prefer not looking at. Especially at this precise moment in our nation's course. I can't think of a worse time for this to make the high profile. Maybe the scandals have been distracting Obama and that's why he hasn't been going outright berserk over this. I mean it's a public, mass shooting that actually DID have an "assault rifle" (as they so love to call a utility rifle) and to add to it? One that bypassed every standing firearm regulation our nation currently has.

What could possibly scream "Pass more laws!" to someone like him more than that? The scandals may be our saving grace on this one.





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