This left/right; liberal/conservative; progressive/libertarian crap has got to STOP!! We must come t

reply to post by sulaw


And that's never going to happen.

You'll always be standing next to somebody who thinks they know better than you how you should be living your life and sooner or later that urge rears its ugly head.

I'm all for live and let live but I'm not under any illusion that the man standing next to me today in solidarity for liberty will turn tail and run the moment something like repealling prohibition, the NFA or freeing up late-term abortion come into play.

Most people have some moral, ethical or legislative line they imagined in their heads and that means they will never be truly and absolutely standing with anyone who isnt a carbon copy of themselves. Even then I'm sure those copies will find something to distrust each other on.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by interupt42

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
reply to post by GrantedBail

 

Standing together is nice and all in the abstract but the moment you or somebody else identifies the reason why we are standing together everything fall apart into an asinine bag of "buts".

So what are you standing together for if you don't identify a reason? What is the purpose?

That's kind of my point. Unity is pretty much a fabrication. At best it's a temporary state occurring when ideals mesh not unlike planetary alignment.

There isnt a single cause I can think of that could get everyone to "stand together." Not for very long anyway.

Why wouldn't the individual Democrats and individual Republicans NOT WANT their politicians to NOT BE persuaded by monetary influences. Note I'm not talking about the DNC or the RNC , I'm talking about the individuals, the common folks.

With that said, I don't think for a minute that it will happen. However, that is a reason and the only reason for both side to come together on, if they only got their heads our of their @. Politicians listen to Lobbyi$t , period end of story. So individual democrats and individual republicans don't get heard nor do their ideals get implemented. Only Corporate and Special interest groups get what they want.

Did individual democrats or individual republicans want for Genetically Modified Organisms to not be labelled on products or did the lobbying industry and special interest groups. Did you want to NOT be notified or know if you are buying a GMO product to feed your child , so much so that you tell congress to please don't let me know?

Not only is removing Monetary influences from congress important and an easy issue for both sides to unite on, but its the REAL issue that needs to be tackled before anything else. You can't expect someone being influenced by Money to fix your problems if the person paying him doesn't have a problem.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Exactly! I couldn't have said it better. It's fetching sad and dis-heartning to say the least, it's just the reality that is.

Maybe one.... One... Day.... Far, far, away.... But hey, I'll keep on the wishful thinking

reply to post by interupt42


I see where your going but that would require a "Total" dismantling of the United States that currently exists. And what's the lesser evil of trading one democracy for another? Is there? Which is the greater? And will the next be immune to what the latter fell for?

reply to post by interupt42


You really want all lobbying done away with?

From Monsanto and the NRA to Greenpeace and the ASPCA?

You might and that's great but you'd be in the minority. Most people have their "buts" and the crookedness and corruption of American politics is just the price they are willing to pay to make sure their side can force a foot in the door.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


You weren't willing to give up the divisive issues. Look, I am as left as they come. I am pro-choice. The Late-term abortion issue is one I can understand. And I think most pro-choicers feel that way. It is wrong and should only be exercised if the well-being of the mother is at stake.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Your go to was "late term abortion". Very few people are down with that. and I mean VERY FEW, contrary to the chain emails you find in your inbox.

This is the problem: you are hating on your fellow have-not for some crazy belief you think he has because he is a democrat.

It is retarded.

You are right. There is no hope for you.

reply to post by GrantedBail


I'm not hating on anyone. In case you misread I'm all for those liberties and more. No division with me. I dont care two bits what you or anyone else wants to do with your lives. I just know that I'm in some super-minority that is essentially dismissed as irrelevant.

All I said is what you said. Very few people would stand.

I just realized you're the OP.

It is wrong and should only be exercised if the well-being of the mother is at stake.

So you wont stand with me then? Wasnt it you who wondered why we couldnt?

reply to post by GrantedBail


You never compromise your beliefs that's one of the major problems in washington. Everyone screams for compromise that's the worst thing you can do you end up with watered down bills and inefective government.Coungress used to debate and try to get people to a cclusion now its all about polling and election.This won't change until politicians are held to there word and stop compromising there morals

Originally posted by sulaw
reply to post by interupt42

 

I see where your going but that would require a "Total" dismantling of the United States that currently exists. And what's the lesser evil of trading one democracy for another? Is there? Which is the greater? And will the next be immune to what the latter fell for?

No, I'm NOT talking about changing our gov't or governing system, I'm talking about revamping and looking into the monetary influences upon our gov't. Something all individuals should welcome.

I'm not even saying to do away with lobbying. I'm saying make this priority one , unite, and come up with solutions to ensure that general public is equally heard from and not just special interest groups with deep pockets.

For example, we can use existing technology to allow for lobbying to continue but without monetary influences. Electronic voting should designate what issues are discussed and prioritized by our officials instead of Money.

reply to post by GrantedBail


Formula

Power equals corruption

With great power comes great responsibility

Great Responsibility makes you corrupt



As for core values...
we already have them
and it is a system designed to spread power supposedly among the masses.. Its called the constitution of The United States...
The problem is that yall have allowed the bread and circus to have power..
(Number one rule of all self help... its not their fault .. its yours...)

They altered the rules .. at first because America had its own T and C
Well someone decided it wasnt enough so we need more..

It has gone to hell since...

The problem with these core values is that eventually you will want to interpret them in your favor...

Slowly the ideals are drowned... for various excuses but in the end it is from cowards who want to control you from their fears...


System works.. people different issue...


and it is not a matter of the haves versus the have nots...

the have nots could have it if they really wanted it..


nope the difference is in choice making...

Success versus failure is the paradigm that is darwin approved

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
reply to post by interupt42

 

You really want all lobbying done away with?

From Monsanto and the NRA to Greenpeace and the ASPCA?

You might and that's great but you'd be in the minority. Most people have their "buts" and the crookedness and corruption of American politics is just the price they are willing to pay to make sure their side can force a foot in the door.

No I don't want any lobbying done away with. I just want to utilize technology to ensure that Monetary persuasion is not the only reason our elected officials do things. see my previous post.

For example, we can use existing technology to allow for lobbying to continue but without monetary influences. Electronic voting should designate what issues are discussed and prioritized by our officials instead of Money.

reply to post by interupt42


That's really just trading one tyranny for another. The tyranny of the rich and powerful for the tyranny of the mass.

If 51% of the population votes electronically or however that GMO labeling is unnecessary should that 49% thinking otherwise just suck it up and stand together with the 51%?

How about 60/40? 70/30? Even 95/5?

A representative version is no better than a democratic version either. It just makes the counting easier.

Just because more people think things should be a certain way doesnt mean they are right or that the minority should just go along happily because it is the will of the majority.

So standing together wont happen. Not without some limiter or qualifiers anyway.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Because this is the kind of issue we leave at the door. Abortion is one of those red meat issues. Like immigration, medical marijuana, prostitution, civil unions, death penalty, social programs, school vouchers...ad infinitum. There are many issues that divide people.

We need to find a common cause and agree to set those issues aside until we straighten out our Republic. Our democratic form of government has been hijacked and purchased by the largest bidder. Perhaps we could just focus on that for a minute.

reply to post by ripcontrol


You are not getting it.

Originally posted by GrantedBail
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

Because this is the kind of issue we leave at the door. Abortion is one of those red meat issues. Like immigration, medical marijuana, prostitution, civil unions, death penalty, social programs, school vouchers...ad infinitum. There are many issues that divide people.

We need to find a common cause and agree to set those issues aside until we straighten out our Republic. Our democratic form of government has been hijacked and purchased by the largest bidder. Perhaps we could just focus on that for a minute.

So it would just be temporary then.

Okay, so casting aside all those divisive issues how would one clean up this country without stepping on any other divisive issue? The simple existence of representatives is divisive enough what with the drawing of districts and all so we'd have to get rid of the house. Just until we clean things up. Are senators really fair? Two per state? There are a lot of people in some states.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere

It really doesn't need to be that hard. We don't have to restructure the whole political infrastructure. We are just trying to get out country back right now.

reply to post by GrantedBail


You know what? I wish I would have never started this thread. Some of you are just hopeless. You can't set aside trivial bs to save the Republic. Fine, just fine. I am done here.

Originally posted by GrantedBail
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

It really doesn't need to be that hard. We don't have to restructure the whole political infrastructure. We are just trying to get out country back right now.

But it is that hard. Back from what and to what? And answer without mentioning anything that may be divisive of course.

reply to post by interupt42


I understand the logic your using but it's flawed IMO.

For example, we can use existing technology to allow for lobbying to continue but without monetary influences. Electronic voting should designate what issues are discussed and prioritized by our officials instead of Money.

Technology is important yes, but if anything technology has shown us is that it can be tampered with and used for cynical reasons. I would be more apt to paper ballots and not electronic voting as in the past it's been shown to be inacurate, also that it can be hacked.

I'm not even saying to do away with lobbying. I'm saying make this priority one , unite, and come up with solutions to ensure that general public is equally heard from and not just special interest groups with deep pockets.

I agree, unit and come up with solutions to ensure the general public is heard. There is now no benefit from being a leader and those benefits are what keeps this sham of a game running. This alone would cause a crash IMO of epic proportions which would inherintly lead to riots, murders and civil disobediance.

Please understand I agree but I can't say for sure this is the most logical solution to a unlogical scenerio.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Back from the Executive power grab. Back from the NDAA Back from the TSA and Homeland Security. Back from the fake War on Terror Inc. Back from the secret surveillance of American citizens. That is enough to keep us busy for a minute.