Snowden has the goods on everyone

Originally posted by opethPA

Originally posted by unphased
and the government is calling for the arrest or conviction of somebody that the people have come to love, and/or respect for their effort.

Regardless of if people love or respect him the facts still are he broke the law..that probably has something to do with why they want to arrest him.

Yeah we get your point. Now if he also took an oath, which he did in joining the military, that says he'll protect the US and the Constitution, well he's honoring that one.

Originally posted by Bilk22
Would you walk out with just that NSA Power Point presentation to prove a point, knowing full well the wrath of the United States of American will be coming down on you like thunder from god? Or would you take with you proof of every scandalous/treasonous act you can find, to not only protect you, but to also cause those who would surely want to come after you, to pause?

I think this is a little incorrect. Although it can be said that he had top secret access, that would not cover everything. There are levels of security in government that would mean one person could not possibly know everything.

If it is true that 9/11 was an inside job, those who would know that would be a tiny group, probably less than 10 people. There would not be a power-point presentation on the plan. There would not be signed confessions on file somewhere. It would be so top secret that most of those who had been involved in it would have been assassinated within a week.

But, as systems administrator for this kind of thing, we can guess that he would know if groups of people were being targeted for information. For instance, if the NSA was monitoring Merkell in Germany to get economic news before it's released (and then using that for trading and making millions), or monitoring their own military, spying on returning soldiers, spying on Republicans, gathering information for blackmail...

I think you're right that he would have a lot of incredibly damaging information, and I also think that it's going to be more shocking to the public than what we've seen so far, but I very much doubt it would be anything to do with 9/11. If it was an inside job and there is evidence of it, it would be so secret no one would ever see it.

I tend to agree that they're all scared too.
I have a feeling the NSA has been using their methods to target and blackmail. I think there's the potential for them to have been using information to control judges, senators and even the president. I believe there's probably evidence of them watching returning military and treating them as a domestic threat. If that's the case then Obama might as well resign now and take most of his cronies with him.
I would definitely say that they all look incredibly scared - and that tells me there's a personal risk to them.

All of this does make me wonder something... if that new NSA building in Utah is outed in the coming leaks as being a massive filing cabinet for every man, woman and child in America (and beyond) what are we going to do about it?

Originally posted by Rocker2013

Originally posted by Bilk22
Would you walk out with just that NSA Power Point presentation to prove a point, knowing full well the wrath of the United States of American will be coming down on you like thunder from god? Or would you take with you proof of every scandalous/treasonous act you can find, to not only protect you, but to also cause those who would surely want to come after you, to pause?

I think this is a little incorrect. Although it can be said that he had top secret access, that would not cover everything. There are levels of security in government that would mean one person could not possibly know everything.

If it is true that 9/11 was an inside job, those who would know that would be a tiny group, probably less than 10 people. There would not be a power-point presentation on the plan. There would not be signed confessions on file somewhere. It would be so top secret that most of those who had been involved in it would have been assassinated within a week.

But, as systems administrator for this kind of thing, we can guess that he would know if groups of people were being targeted for information. For instance, if the NSA was monitoring Merkell in Germany to get economic news before it's released (and then using that for trading and making millions), or monitoring their own military, spying on returning soldiers, spying on Republicans, gathering information for blackmail...

I think you're right that he would have a lot of incredibly damaging information, and I also think that it's going to be more shocking to the public than what we've seen so far, but I very much doubt it would be anything to do with 9/11. If it was an inside job and there is evidence of it, it would be so secret no one would ever see it.

I tend to agree that they're all scared too.
I have a feeling the NSA has been using their methods to target and blackmail. I think there's the potential for them to have been using information to control judges, senators and even the president. I believe there's probably evidence of them watching returning military and treating them as a domestic threat. If that's the case then Obama might as well resign now and take most of his cronies with him.
I would definitely say that they all look incredibly scared - and that tells me there's a personal risk to them.

All of this does make me wonder something... if that new NSA building in Utah is outed in the coming leaks as being a massive filing cabinet for every man, woman and child in America (and beyond) what are we going to do about it?

edit on 12-6-2013 by Rocker2013 because: (no reason given)

The 9/11 thing was hyperbole on my part. However I think it makes the point as you have, that there is a lot here he can release and the players are all scared and showing it by odd alliances and reactions.

We can only hope that what ever he does have has redundancy and can be verified. I think it's pretty clear they don't want to extradite him and try him. I think they prefer him dead. However I'm not sure that would make the information go away if he didn't act alone and I believe that to be his security. Something drastic is going to occur in an attempt to cause a diversion. Let's hope it's not too severe. I think the game is almost over one way or another.

@ OP that's a very interesting idea...that he might have dirt on everyone in power and the truth about 9/11..interesting but far fetched.
For some reason over the last few years we have had a carrot held in front of us with wikileaks and then anonymous and now this guy...all promising some massive disclosures..and all amounting to hot air.

I am pretty sure all these leakers are really operations in themselves, to spread disinformation and mainly to neutralize the left. To me it makes sense..also look at the facts..all these leakers are brought to you courtesy of the MSM..and nothing has changed since they all materialized overnight...NOTHING.

Originally posted by opethPA

Originally posted by unphased
and the government is calling for the arrest or conviction of somebody that the people have come to love, and/or respect for their effort.

Regardless of if people love or respect him the facts still are he broke the law..that probably has something to do with why they want to arrest him.

See...This kind of thinking just blows me away. The government of the US breaks every law ever written since the beginning of time, every day 365 days a year. Someone like manning, or Snowden puts their life on the line to bring it to light and they get crucified for breaking the law. Sometimes, laws are made to be damned well broken...This is one of those times!

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
@ OP that's a very interesting idea...that he might have dirt on everyone in power and the truth about 9/11..interesting but far fetched.
For some reason over the last few years we have had a carrot held in front of us with wikileaks and then anonymous and now this guy...all promising some massive disclosures..and all amounting to hot air.

I am pretty sure all these leakers are really operations in themselves, to spread disinformation and mainly to neutralize the left. To me it makes sense..also look at the facts..all these leakers are brought to you courtesy of the MSM..and nothing has changed since they all materialized overnight...NOTHING.

Neutralize the left? I hope it neutralizes all those that are criminal, but the wikileaks stuff was mostly to hurt Bush, so you're premise, from the get go, is suspect. Oh if you hadn't noticed, not only is Anonymous anonymous, they really have never released much of anything. This guy has a name and a face. It's all very different.

Now as to your assertion there could be other motivations behind this, I don't doubt that possibility.

Originally posted by opethPA

Originally posted by unphased
and the government is calling for the arrest or conviction of somebody that the people have come to love, and/or respect for their effort.

Regardless of if people love or respect him the facts still are he broke the law..that probably has something to do with why they want to arrest him.

Paul Revere, John Adams and Patrick Henry "broke the law" as well.

Originally posted by HUMBLEONE

Originally posted by opethPA

Originally posted by unphased
and the government is calling for the arrest or conviction of somebody that the people have come to love, and/or respect for their effort.

Regardless of if people love or respect him the facts still are he broke the law..that probably has something to do with why they want to arrest him.

Paul Revere, John Adams and Patrick Henry "broke the law" as well.

Yes, just like the truth is only the truth to those it benefits, so too, a law is only justifiable to those it benefits. We need to let the chips fall where they may and we, the people can be the judge. That is the defining aspect of a true republic.

reply to post by Bilk22


Neutralizing the left. What I mean is that when you get a government that continually tramples over everyone's rights, your going to get opposition to it. But the government need to gauge the level of anger and do their best to passify it, distract it and ultimately take the sting out of it.

There could not be an Arab spring in the west, because the media have been bought off long ago and do a very good job at feeding us all a bunch of cr4p...but because it's not state owned we are suckered into thinking the state has no control over it or input... The reality is the lines between corporations, the MSM and the state are so blurred for years now, that they are pretty much one in the same thing...proof of this is the very PRISM scandal, where Google, Facebook etc have been used as defacto arms of the state.

Wikileaks promised so much and delivered so little other than some whistle blower who took the fall for them...So the only thing we can say Wikileaks produced was Bradly Manning, so to me that says Wikileaks was a useful tool to encourage dissidents and to identify them. This is a big red flag, especially as Assange is still hovering around..supposedly untouchable, please. Anonymous is even more obvious.

These organisations that are supposedly underground dissidents, emerged overnight and will have been very useful at recruiting hundreds of thousands of email addresses and telephone numbers of suckers who want to join their ranks. Obviously this is really useful information to have, if your Big Brother. You can see how large the opposition is and find out where they all live...You can also set the agenda through these organisations, Adam Kokesh is another red flag...former soldier...etc...I mean a supposed agitator who is still walking around shouting his mouth off...encouraging people to march on Washington fully loaded, as it were, planting seeds. All of these guys have slickly put together web sites and know how to present a good show, that in itself should ring alarm bells.

I mean someone else posted that 57 protesters got arrested in London today, i think, before they even set off to protest..see they probably all belong to an Anonymous news group...unwittingly forgetting how dumb they all are.

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
I am pretty sure all these leakers are really operations in themselves, to spread disinformation and mainly to neutralize the left. To me it makes sense..also look at the facts..all these leakers are brought to you courtesy of the MSM..and nothing has changed since they all materialized overnight...NOTHING.

This is the problem, both sides have their little political points they want to score. A Republican is going to want to get dirt on the Democrats and the opposite is true too.

The main issue here is that the intelligence community behind this, the shadowy conglomerate of the military/industrial/intelligence, don't have an allegiance to anyone - not the government, not the people.

They are in this for themselves, potentially using the information they can gather on everyone from judges to senators to the president himself - and foreign governments and officials too - in order to control everything.

I am of the belief that we are indeed getting a glimpse of that "NWO" people keep going on about. It's not some kind of organized ancient club though, it's just corrupt and greedy people who always want more. Corporations like Google and Facebook have one ambition, to make more money and beat down their competition. Individuals in the system will use whatever they can to exert control and gain more power and more wealth.

That new building in Utah is pretty much the new HQ of that shadowy mil/ind/intel club, it'll be their library, their chamber of secrets, their tool to exert control on people and governments all over the world for nothing more than money and dominance.

There's a novel in there somewhere.

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
reply to post by Bilk22

 

Neutralizing the left. What I mean is that when you get a government that continually tramples over everyone's rights, your going to get opposition to it. But the government need to gauge the level of anger and do their best to passify it, distract it and ultimately take the sting out of it.

There could not be an Arab spring in the west, because the media have been bought off long ago and do a very good job at feeding us all a bunch of cr4p...but because it's not state owned we are suckered into thinking the state has no control over it or input... The reality is the lines between corporations, the MSM and the state are so blurred for years now, that they are pretty much one in the same thing...proof of this is the very PRISM scandal, where Google, Facebook etc have been used as defacto arms of the state.

Wikileaks promised so much and delivered so little other than some whistle blower who took the fall for them...So the only thing we can say Wikileaks produced was Bradly Manning, so to me that says Wikileaks was a useful tool to encourage dissidents and to identify them. This is a big red flag, especially as Assange is still hovering around..supposedly untouchable, please. Anonymous is even more obvious.

These organisations that are supposedly underground dissidents, emerged overnight and will have been very useful at recruiting hundreds of thousands of email addresses and telephone numbers of suckers who want to join their ranks. Obviously this is really useful information to have, if your Big Brother. You can see how large the opposition is and find out where they all live...You can also set the agenda through these organisations, Adam Kokesh is another red flag...former soldier...etc...I mean a supposed agitator who is still walking around shouting his mouth off...encouraging people to march on Washington fully loaded, as it were, planting seeds. All of these guys have slickly put together web sites and know how to present a good show, that in itself should ring alarm bells.

All of what you stated makes sense. If this falls into that category, well then the show is over. This might be our last, best hope at thwarting what ever agenda is in the works. If it's what you suggest it can be, we're truly screwed.

Originally posted by HUMBLEONE

Originally posted by opethPA

Originally posted by unphased
and the government is calling for the arrest or conviction of somebody that the people have come to love, and/or respect for their effort.

Regardless of if people love or respect him the facts still are he broke the law..that probably has something to do with why they want to arrest him.

Paul Revere, John Adams and Patrick Henry "broke the law" as well.

Other than in philosophy or as an ideological comparison 1776 America to America 2013 is relevant to this situation how?

Look I am not saying that Snowden shouldn't be lauded or praised for what he did. I am not saying he did not act in a way that he and many people find noble. What I am saying is he broke the law like anyone else would have with a security clearance who released unauthorized documents. The over 1 million people that currently have a Secret or higher clearance would all be arrested for doing the same thing because that is what you agree to when you get involved in that world.

Everyone cries, rightly so, when the Govt ignores the law for its own gain. This is no different and it's no less disconcerting to hear people saying "he isn't a criminal " then it is to say the same about the Govt in this case.

The difference to me is that he should be found guilty of the multiple laws he broke and at the same time be granted immunity or safe haven.

reply to post by Rocker2013

gathering information for blackmail...

Which I think is exactly what has been going on. Take a look at Petraus, he is a perfect example of, IMHO, of an attempted blackmail gone horribly wrong. He was threatened about Benghazi, when he refused to "play along", he was told something along the lines of, "Either play with us, or we will out your affair," to whit he replied, "Up yours, I will out myself, and disempower you, and still not play along."

Which he did. He is even quoted in the emails that were released as not being supportative of the talking points.

We had a huge heads up when the "FBI" was looking through his emails.


Then, all the other military heads that were let go, fired, etc. after him. They had "dirt" on every one of them.

At this point, I am thinking they have dirt on Justice Roberts, as this would explain his 180 on Obamacare. It was released after the ruling that he literally changed his opinion and rewrote it overnight.

And lets not forget Obama's smug remark. Not an exact quote, but something like, "I am confident the Supreme Court will make the right decision." , implying the only right decision was to agree with Obama.

Hindsight on these things, as I have said before, is 20/20. Things become much clearer when you have the information you didn't have before. Looking back at things that left you confused or saying WTF? Sure become a lot more clear.

reply to post by Bilk22


Bilk I hope to god and heaven's to mergatroid you are 100% correct! Even being an American, it's way past due and about time someone threw the preverbial $hit back so hard it had a splatter effect across the board. I don't want death or destruction, I want resolution and resolve to restore a once great nation to it's former entity~

Originally posted by Bilk22
We can only hope that what ever he does have has redundancy and can be verified. I think it's pretty clear they don't want to extradite him and try him. I think they prefer him dead. However I'm not sure that would make the information go away if he didn't act alone and I believe that to be his security.

I think he's clever enough to have something in place, a kind of "in the event of my death" plan.
I very much doubt he's the only one to know where the rest of the body is buried, he'd have shared that with someone, and I would have thought that the Guardian would have more ready to go right now too - if they don't have everything already.

It must be hard for the Guardian too. I can only imagine how complex breaking a story like this must be. How do you work on releasing a story like this and do so under the radar of the US? I would be suspicious of everyone at the Guardian, working from a secret location, using a brand new laptop, with a disposable phone...

But then again, can you imagine the fallout if they dared to target journalists?

Originally posted by Bilk22
Something drastic is going to occur in an attempt to cause a diversion. Let's hope it's not too severe. I think the game is almost over one way or another.

I fear that you might be right. I kind of see the NSA and others as being a self-fulfilling problem... they create the system to deal with the "threats", then the discovery of that system is deemed to create a threat, so they can then justify almost anything to "protect" the state from that threat... that's basically how I think they have been allowed to become what they have. It's a spiral, the more there is to protect, the bigger the threat, and the bigger the response...

reply to post by Bilk22


I'm no history buff..but as history has a habit of repeating itself, I can bet you that the communists..especially Stalin did the same things. You know, set up fake dissident organisations and agitators, agent provokers, in order to trap people. It's bound to be standard operating procedure. Like I said Wikileaks appeared overnight..so did Anonymous so did this latest guy..and all three were championed by the Guardian newspaper, which has always operated as a left wing paper.

There have been no proper fact checking on any of these groups or people and when you dig a little deep you find men like Assange have years of his own history "missing" or unaccounted for. Not just that but his whole demeanor is abnormal..Im no psychologist but I am good at smelling BS and Assange has it written all over him, smug b45tard he is.

reply to post by Bilk22

He certainly could make arrangements for whatever else he has stashed to be released in the event of an "untimely death".......

Originally posted by minkmouse
See...This kind of thinking just blows me away. The government of the US breaks every law ever written since the beginning of time, every day 365 days a year. Someone like manning, or Snowden puts their life on the line to bring it to light and they get crucified for breaking the law. Sometimes, laws are made to be damned well broken...This is one of those times!

That is where you are showing your naivete on how the real world works.

You have some number over a million people that have a S or TS or higher clearance.
At the start when you are getting the most basic clearance it is clearly defined that unauthorized release of classified information is a federal\criminal offense. Their can't be any gray area on that. While Snowdens actions may have been noble or patriotic there are bad people who can/have/will break those same laws for nefarious reasons.

As I have said multiple times he should be found guilty, should be declared the criminal he is and should be granted immunity if the origins of this release turn out to what he claiming they were.

Division has been a tactical weapon for eons. As long as the topic du jour splits the public into for and against, the original plan is free move forward while everyone is fighting amongst themselves. The media intensifies and celebrates this rift. And by the time people refocus, the opportunity to protest, object, question, and demand answers has long passed. Then the public just settles back into their distracting gadgets where, ironically, many have willingly given up their freedoms.

Whether this character is for real or a plant, the reaction of the general public must change from division to unity, and from inaction to action. We've been stagnant for so long - in order to progress, we need to resolve injustices of the past...but instead, justice is elusive at best, and we are left waiting for it to arrive, and right now there is a mountain of accountability that hasn't been dealt with.

ETA: Here is information regarding Superior Orders that I believe is relevant to the discussion....

One of the most noted uses of this plea, or "defense," was by the accused in the 1945–46 Nuremberg Trials, such that it is also called the "Nuremberg defense". The Nuremberg Trials were a series of military tribunals, held by the main victorious Allied forces of World War II, most notable for the prosecution of prominent members of the political, military, and economic leadership of the defeated Nazi Germany. It was during these trials, under the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal which set them up, that the defense of superior orders was no longer considered enough to escape punishment; but merely enough to lessen punishment.[4] Historically, the plea of superior orders has been used both before and after the Nuremberg Trials, with a notable lack of consistency in various rulings. Apart from the specific plea of Superior Orders, discussions about how the general concept of superior orders ought to be used, or ought not to be used, have taken place in various arguments, rulings and Statutes that have not necessarily been part of “after the fact” war crimes trials, strictly speaking. Nevertheless these discussions and related events help us understand the evolution of the specific plea of superior orders and the history of its usage.

Consider this...Fox news is so blatantly right wing and full of ignorance and loud mouths who shout over people, that the average joe would think "this is all blatant propaganda and BS..Only idiots would buy it"...and that's an absolutely true assement of fox. And I would think most people would think that way...so they turn to alternatives..like the Guardian, which presents a more reasonable world view..but that's where they have you suckered. Once your lapping up everything you already know is right, they can then start feeding you cra4p like Assange and Anonymous.
Like I said its all the MSM.