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Indian AF breaks USAF record

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posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 02:29 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3

Whats this crap about "Feed your people first"..heard it too many times to let it go unanswered.

Western countries with populations that equal those of our cities are doing too much bravado about "Feed your people first" taunt.

Why? so we spend more on our people and leave our defences to be catered by some "world policing force?" Or we let our economy be handled by similar entities, so that it can collapse onto itself? (Argentina. South Korea..etc etc.) Self sufficiency is of utmost importance here.Thats what we strive to achieve..

So enough of this "Feed your people first" rhetoric!!I say this on the behalf of all third world countries. Also my intuition is that you are some chicom dude who's been using this "Feed your people first" line against India in other threads as well, kind of lame don't you think


Also maybe you to go learn english before you come and post on english fora dude!! "non-meaningless record" means a meaningful one right?


[edit on 13-11-2004 by Daedalus3]


If I am not mistaken, we ( U.S.A.) feed your people first. The U.S. is the largest exporter of food aid in the world by far. These countries on the receiving end of that aid SHOULD concetrate on getting that food to the people instead of nukes, planes, helicopters etc.. I do belive that India is a country that tries to do this unlike Somalia and other third world countries. Congrats India on Setting a world record that the U.S. could possibly break if it wanted to pull one from under a black project.




posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by Killak420
India and China are advancing there forces way faster than the US and pretty soon they shall past them in technology and have the superior forces. They already have the man power its just a matter of time before the US gets crushed.


I dont know about that the US spends more on its military then the rest of the world combined You have to remember the US only shows you what they want people to see. They have a black budget that dwarfs most countries entire military budget. I dont think anyone is passing them anytime soon.

I have to say though the Pilots of the IAF seem pretty good and are getting better alll the time.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by Killak420
Why do most americans beleive that the rest of the world is sh*t and that they are always going to be the only superpower? India and China are advancing there forces way faster than the US and pretty soon they shall past them in technology and have the superior forces. They already have the man power its just a matter of time before the US gets crushed.


Riiiiiiiiiight.

China just sent a man to space. The US sent a man to the freaking moon 40 years ago!

Advancing their forces faster? You are dreaming. The US is pumping out the F/A-22 Raptor as we speak. China has yet to put out it's J-10 fighter, which is basically an inferior F-16/mig hybrid. The US is coming out with stealth UCAV's which cost tens of millions less then normal aircraft, and are better in a lot of areas. The US is at the brink of deploying multiple laser systems, China and India aren't even close.

How many SSBN's do these two countries have? how many do the US have? How many Supercarrier battle groups do the US have? How many do India and China have? What is the MBT of the US? What are India and Chinas MBT? How many Nukes does the US have? How many do India and China have? How many strategic bombers? How many Naval ships? How about their training?

Both nations are DECADES behind the US in total technology, and about 50 trillion dollars behind in development. Niether country has any force projection, while the US can march all over the globe at will.

Take a dose of reality - it would do you well. Russia is MUCH closer to being the equal of the US based simply on the fact that technology wise they are not that far behind, and in some cases may even be a little bit ahead.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 03:11 AM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
I dont know about that the US spends more on its military then the rest of the world combined You have to remember the US only shows you what they want people to see. They have a black budget that dwarfs most countries entire military budget. I dont think anyone is passing them anytime soon.

I have to say though the Pilots of the IAF seem pretty good and are getting better alll the time.



That is quite a true statement. Not only do we spend more on the military but just the amount of people that are employed because of it would just be astronomical. We spent close to 400 billion dollars this year. I wonder how much more it would be if you included the worker as input to the economy. I can't even imagine that. DOD employees, Civilian contractors, companies like General Dynamics...........it goes on forever. I would love to know the total figure.

Yes Indian pilots are getting better. They have to. Gotta keep Pakistan on edge ya know.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by Killak420
Why do most americans beleive that the rest of the world is sh*t and that they are always going to be the only superpower? India and China are advancing there forces way faster than the US and pretty soon they shall past them in technology and have the superior forces. They already have the man power its just a matter of time before the US gets crushed.


Riiiiiiiiiight.

China just sent a man to space. The US sent a man to the freaking moon 40 years ago!

Advancing their forces faster? You are dreaming. The US is pumping out the F/A-22 Raptor as we speak. China has yet to put out it's J-10 fighter, which is basically an inferior F-16/mig hybrid. The US is coming out with stealth UCAV's which cost tens of millions less then normal aircraft, and are better in a lot of areas. The US is at the brink of deploying multiple laser systems, China and India aren't even close.

How many SSBN's do these two countries have? how many do the US have? How many Supercarrier battle groups do the US have? How many do India and China have? What is the MBT of the US? What are India and Chinas MBT? How many Nukes does the US have? How many do India and China have? How many strategic bombers? How many Naval ships? How about their training?

Both nations are DECADES behind the US in total technology, and about 50 trillion dollars behind in development. Niether country has any force projection, while the US can march all over the globe at will.

Take a dose of reality - it would do you well. Russia is MUCH closer to being the equal of the US based simply on the fact that technology wise they are not that far behind, and in some cases may even be a little bit ahead.




Sure, sure....ahead in everything, tech, defence budget, and oh yeah wait...stupidity!!


You just stay ahead of India and China by playing mind games with the both. Together we'd be ahead of the US anyday. And Russia foresees that hence its attempts to forge a Iran-India-China-Russia axis.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 08:10 AM
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Originally posted by just_a_pilot
If I am not mistaken, we ( U.S.A.) feed your people first. The U.S. is the largest exporter of food aid in the world by far. These countries on the receiving end of that aid SHOULD concetrate on getting that food to the people instead of nukes, planes, helicopters etc.. I do belive that India is a country that tries to do this unlike Somalia and other third world countries. Congrats India on Setting a world record that the U.S. could possibly break if it wanted to pull one from under a black project.


Cant find a figure of how much aid US gives to India. Any figures people?
Only recent news about USAID in India was that it was infested with CIA operatives who played a major role in subverting one of RAW's officers(Indian Intelligence) who fled to the US few months back.

Fat lot of good taht aid did India!!



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man




Riiiiiiiiiight.

China just sent a man to space. The US sent a man to the freaking moon 40 years ago!

Advancing their forces faster? You are dreaming. The US is pumping out the F/A-22 Raptor as we speak. China has yet to put out it's J-10 fighter, which is basically an inferior F-16/mig hybrid. The US is coming out with stealth UCAV's which cost tens of millions less then normal aircraft, and are better in a lot of areas. The US is at the brink of deploying multiple laser systems, China and India aren't even close.

How many SSBN's do these two countries have? how many do the US have? How many Supercarrier battle groups do the US have? How many do India and China have? What is the MBT of the US? What are India and Chinas MBT? How many Nukes does the US have? How many do India and China have? How many strategic bombers? How many Naval ships? How about their training?

Both nations are DECADES behind the US in total technology, and about 50 trillion dollars behind in development. Niether country has any force projection, while the US can march all over the globe at will.

Take a dose of reality - it would do you well. Russia is MUCH closer to being the equal of the US based simply on the fact that technology wise they are not that far behind, and in some cases may even be a little bit ahead.



China could of sent a man into space a long time ago they had the tech. to do it they just had better things to do at the time plus the Russians and Chinese were very close back then so it was pointless for them to jump into the space race because Russia was already beating the US.
You dont know what China has and what they are developing right now.I posted an article about China's new Laser weapons and how they will be in service with in a couple of years.
You say the US can march all over the globe at will then what is happening in Iraq and why cant they take care of North Korea after Kim basically said bring it.Take a look at your country today my friend the economy is f*cked and bush wants to invade Iran which will just make the situation much worse than what it is. I am pretty sure that India and China will Pass the US in Tech. pretty soon and after all they are the growing giants that you cant bully around.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 10:20 AM
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^^^^Ummm I hate to be a nit-picker, but the before Gorbachev, the russians and the chinese pretty much hated each other...It was Gorbachev who started the "China First" policy...



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3

Together we'd be ahead of the US anyday. And Russia foresees that hence its attempts to forge a Iran-India-China-Russia axis.



That might be a nice axis but its not going to happen anytime soon. China and Russia teaming up please they dont trust each other. Russia has alot of nukes pointed at the US but not all of them are you should find out where the rest are pointed.

India in this little axis try again the US and India are closer allies then any of those other countries you mentioned. You hear about training between the USAF and the IAF not any of those other countries. India and the US are allies more so then alot of our so called allies in Europe.

China and Iran I could believe after the big oil deal they signed but I dont see the rest teaming up any time soon. I think Pakistan might be a better choice then India.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Together we'd be ahead of the US anyday. And Russia foresees that hence its attempts to forge a Iran-India-China-Russia axis.



That might be a nice axis but its not going to happen anytime soon. China and Russia teaming up please they dont trust each other. Russia has alot of nukes pointed at the US but not all of them are you should find out where the rest are pointed.

India in this little axis try again the US and India are closer allies then any of those other countries you mentioned. You hear about training between the USAF and the IAF not any of those other countries. India and the US are allies more so then alot of our so called allies in Europe.

China and Iran I could believe after the big oil deal they signed but I dont see the rest teaming up any time soon. I think Pakistan might be a better choice then India.



Yes I agree that my "dream" alliance does have a lot of flaws, actually not so much the Russia-china problem but more because of the Indo-china problem. Im surprised to hear that China and Russia still have nukes pointed at each other till date(can you cnfirm with links?) after all the friendship treaties they signed in recent times.

Also Im surprised to hear that the US considers India as a major strategic ally in Asia, as I havent seen any gestures to support that concept.
As for the AF exercises, the IAF has been having plenty with the russians since the early 1960s. Instructor teams of fighter pilots form Russia,India and even Pakistan trained Iraqi fighter pilots during the Iran-Iraq War.
Its just that IMHO russian ACS are a little stiff and predictable, and that's why the Indians have modified them.
Remember in the Cope India exercises USAF pilots said that the IAF pilots didnt stick to the assumed soviet A2A flight strategies, and "mixed 'em up" up there..?

Im not so sure the US is opoening its arms to India to the extent of a strategic ally. The Russians would certanily try their best to prevent it...

The next decade or even the next few years could be very interesting in terms of these new alligences forming....



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 01:34 PM
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While India and US relation might be considered lets say uneasy by some they are closer then they have ever been in history. Both economic and with each others military. US out sourcing has provided a economic boom for India and have increase economic ties a great deal.

The United States and India have re-designated their relationship as an "evolving partnership, based on mutual confidence and concern.


"The U.S and India have recently held four major army and air force joint exercises, including one in Alaska and another in a cold desert in northwestern India. They are about to commence two major naval exercises off the Kerala coast, in which U.S. nuclear-propelled and nuclear-weapons-bearing warships are expected to participate. The two governments have been sharing intelligence with each other. "

The US sees India’s potential to become one of the great democratic powers of the twenty-first century and has worked hard to transform our relationship accordingly.

www.rupe-india.org...

www.anti-war.com...


About Russia and China Only eight million Russians live in the Far East. On the Chinese side of the border, there are ten times that number. Granted officially both claimed to stop pointing nukes at each other in 9/3/94: But when you have a army of about 200 million on a land border with you and years of mistrust you cant believe everything you read.

Keep your friends close but your enemies closer.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 05:43 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Sure, sure....ahead in everything, tech, defence budget, and oh yeah wait...stupidity!!


You just stay ahead of India and China by playing mind games with the both. Together we'd be ahead of the US anyday. And Russia foresees that hence its attempts to forge a Iran-India-China-Russia axis.


What a joke! Stupidity - your preaching it buddy. If we're so stupid, please explain to me why we DOMINATE EVERYTHING! How come we have the most powerfull economy in the world BY FAR. How come we have the most advanced technology BY FAR? How come we have the most powerfull military BY FAR? How come we have the most political clout BY FAR?

India and China would make for some nice target practice for the US


Please explain to me this: Say China and India did unite, and actually thought they could take on the US. How would they do it? What form of force projection do either of them have?



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by Killak420
China could of sent a man into space a long time ago they had the tech. to do it they just had better things to do at the time plus the Russians and Chinese were very close back then so it was pointless for them to jump into the space race because Russia was already beating the US.


Russia was beating the US? Take a history lesson, Russia sent a man into orbit, the US sent SEVERAL missions to the moon. Which one is more difficult? Has anyone else been able to do it?



You dont know what China has and what they are developing right now.I posted an article about China's new Laser weapons and how they will be in service with in a couple of years.


If you want to play the "we don't know what they are working on" card, we can


The stuff we KNOW the US is working on is enough to take on the world (try looking up the USAF involvment in anti-matter bombs - they make nukes look like fire crackers; Try looking up "rods from God"; Try looking up Hypersoar etc etc etc)

The US's black budget is larger then most nations whole military budget.



You say the US can march all over the globe at will then what is happening in Iraq and why cant they take care of North Korea after Kim basically said bring it.


Did you not see the US take Iraq in a matter of weeks? We are occupying them at will. N korea has more to do with politics then anything else. We could take them in a matter of weeks too, but about a million S Koreans would die in the process so we want to avoid that.



Take a look at your country today my friend the economy is f*cked and bush wants to invade Iran which will just make the situation much worse than what it is.


Wishfull thinking by yet another US hater. The US economy is growing faster in both % and in GDP then the UK, Russia, France, Germany - hell, any major country really.

We are still expanding faster then China as well. China might be making the largest improvement in % growth, but since the US economy is soooooo much bigger, even if we have half the % growth the total growth is still higher, which means we still increase our budget lead over China.



I am pretty sure that India and China will Pass the US in Tech. pretty soon and after all they are the growing giants that you cant bully around.




Pass us in technology soon?

They both have DECADES to go before they equal what we have NOW. By that time we will be even farther ahead.

Wishfull thinking and reality are two TOTALLY different things buddy - i hope you come back to the real world sometime soon.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 11:00 PM
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Manpower is not really an advantage. Say you have a million man standing army. How will you move all of them, feed them, support medical operations, pay them. That is the problem. People do not usually think about the support that goes behind an army. Also while India and China are growing, they are already hitting a peak. China can't support its population like the US can. It just has too many people. Also, the people are spread out all over the economic spectrum. China is also producing alot of polution. Imagine if you had a country with over three times the population of the US producing three times the polution. At the moment automobiles produced in Europe and America can't really go into China without modification. Just a few years ago they were using fuel with lead and now the fuel is so lowgrade that engine injectors malfunction. India is in the same situation except its economy is not as strong.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by jetsetter
Manpower is not really an advantage. Say you have a million man standing army. How will you move all of them, feed them, support medical operations, pay them. That is the problem. People do not usually think about the support that goes behind an army.


So true! There is a quote that goes something like "arm chair generals talk about strategy, politicians talk about doctrine, and real military leaders talk about logistics."

All those millions of men need to be fed, clothed, equiped etc.



posted on Nov, 18 2004 @ 08:26 AM
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Originally posted by surfup
Can I get a pro-India article too?


It seems to be that the article is very biased.

Surf


This article i am posting is from a US air mag Inside The Air Force and is written by a US citizen Hampton Stephens. The USAF airman, Col. Greg Neubeck, deputy commander of operations for the wing’s 3rd Operations Group and exercise director for Cope India compliments the IAF on their beetter showing and great potential and resources .

Source

A recent exercise with the Indian Air Force is causing U.S. Air Force officials to re-evaluate the way the service trains its fighter pilots while bolstering the case for buying the F/A-22 as a way to ensure continued air dominance for the United States, according to service officials.

The surprising sophistication of Indian fighter aircraft and skill of Indian pilots demonstrated at the Cope India air combat exercise Feb. 15 through 27 at Gwalior Air Force Station, India, should provide a reality check for those who had assumed unquestioned U.S. air superiority, service officials who participated in the exercise said this week. The event was the first-ever air combat exercise involving the U.S. and India and the most active bilateral military exchange in over 40 years, according to these officials.

“The major takeaway for the Air Force is that our prediction of needing to replace the F-15 with the F/A-22 is proving out as we get smarter and smarter about other [countries’] capabilities around the world and what technology is limited to in the F-15 airframe,” said Col. Mike Snodgrass, commander of the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf Air Force Base, AK. “We’ve taken [the F-15] about as far as we can and it’s now time to move to the next generation.” Snodgrass, who has been selected to receive his first star, and two other wing officials spoke with Inside the Air Force June 2.


The Air Force has been arguing the absolute necessity of the F/A-22 since the program began. But the performance of the Indians in direct competition against the Air Force’s best fighter, the F-15C, was particularly striking evidence of an endangered U.S. lead in air combat capability, the statements of service officials indicate.

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper told the Senate Appropriations defense subcommittee in March that the results of Cope India were “very revealing,” although he declined to elaborate in a public forum. Privately, other senior service officials have pointed to Cope India as evidence that continued U.S. air superiority is dependent on the F/A-22.

Although service officials have been reluctant to detail how the Indians performed against the six F-15Cs from the 3rd Wing that participated in Cope India, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in a Feb. 26 House Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S. F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF.

Officials from the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf did not provide specifics about how their aircraft fared, but said the experience is causing the service to reevaluate the way it trains its pilots for air-to-air operations.

“What happened to us was it looks like our red air training might not be as good because the adversaries are better than we thought,” Snodgrass said. “And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of their equipment was better than we anticipated.”

“Red air” refers to the way the Air Force simulates enemy capability in air combat training. Because the service has assumed for years that its fighters are more capable than enemy aircraft, the U.S. pilots that simulate the enemy, known as “red” forces, in air combat training are required to operate under rules that constrain their combat capability.

“We have always believed that our technology was superior to everyone else’s technology, that we would fight a somewhat inferior adversary, so we have had to supply a simulated adversary from our own resources; we call that ‘red air,’” Snodgrass said.


As a result, Air Force pilots are used to flying against an enemy whose combat capability is deliberately limited.

“There are manoeuvering limits as well as weapons employment limits, what we believe enemy aircraft may be able to do with their weapons systems, so we try to simulate that in our own airplane with our own weapons,” Snodgrass explained. “It becomes very complex because instead of using the airplane the way it was designed, you now have to come up with rules of thumb that limit what you do and cause you to not perform . . . the way we really would want to in combat.”

The Cope India exercises consisted of air combat maneuvers in which pilots would practice their fighter tactics and fly against each other one-on-one, as well as simulated combat scenarios. It was during this simulated combat, which included both “offensive counterair” and “defensive counterair” scenarios, that the Indians proved the most formidable, according to the 3rd Wing officials. In the offensive counterair scenarios, a small number of F-15Cs would attempt to intercept an enemy strike aircraft en route to a target that was guarded by a larger number of Indian fighters. In the defensive counterair missions, the F-15s would attempt to defend a target against Indian fighters.

In these offensive and defensive missions, four F-15Cs were usually flying against 10 or 12 of the same model Indian fighter, according to Col. Greg Neubeck, deputy commander of operations for the wing’s 3rd Operations Group and exercise director for Cope India. The 3rd Operations Group is responsible for the 3rd Wing’s flying mission.

The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MIG-27 and MIG-29, but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MIG-21, and the SU-30K Flanker, also made in Russia, Neubeck said. He emphasized the fact that U.S. forces were always outnumbered in these scenarios, but said the missions proved more difficult than expected.


“What we faced were superior numbers, and an IAF pilot who was very proficient in his aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome,” Neubeck said.

One reason the Indian pilots proved so formidable is that their training regimen does not include a concept of “red air.” Instead, “they fly pretty much blue-on-blue . . . [a] full-up airplane with no restrictions against somebody else’s airplane with no restrictions, and that leads to more proficiency with your aircraft,” Neubeck said.

In addition to reinforcing the need for the F/A-22, therefore, Cope India demonstrated that the service might be able to immediately improve its air combat capability by changing the way Air Force pilots train.

“The Air Force is re-examining, from what I can understand, our concept of red air and how we might be able to provide red air to our fighter forces so that we get [the best] training we can afford,” Snodgrass said.

Neubeck said the service probably needs to “take off the handcuffs that we put on our red air training aids and allow them to be more aggressive and make the red air tougher than we have in the past.”

Although India is a friendly nation, the lesson of Cope India is that almost any nation could surpass the United States’ air combat capability if the Pentagon does not continue to invest in better training and technology, the Elmendorf officials said. At last count, for example, there were over 5,000 MIG-21s active in air forces around the world, Snodgrass said. Even American fighters, such as Boeing’s F-15, are being sold in upgraded versions to countries around the world.

“I believe what this demonstrates is that the capacity exists out there for any nation with the appropriate resources and the will to acquire technology and to train their aircrews to be very, very capable,” said Col. Russ Handy, commander of the 3rd Operations Group. “In the long term this could occur in nations outside of the Indian Air Force.”

The Air Force will get another chance to test its capabilities against the Indians in July, when the IAF will bring its Jaguar fighter-bomber aircraft to Eielson AFB, AK, for the Cooperative Cope Thunder exercise. The 3rd Wing officers said their pilots had not yet flown against an Indian-piloted Jaguar.

-----------------------

That link has some cool pics of F-15' s dogfighting Su-30K, mig-21, mirage -2000H, etc

This is not a pro india article but a neutral one.

I posted the same article on ATSN, and westpoint, am madman were critical of me for "making a big deal of nothing"



posted on Nov, 18 2004 @ 08:38 AM
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also check out :

vayu-sena.tripod.com...

---thanks



posted on Nov, 18 2004 @ 08:56 AM
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Going to the moon. They may have landed a chopper at a higher altitude, even though they didn't make the technology, but they have yet to put a man on the moon or anything on mars, etc. I find it amazing that people think China and India are the hot beds of technology and yet they have done nothing when compared to the U.S.



posted on Nov, 18 2004 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by GrndLkNatv
Going to the moon. They may have landed a chopper at a higher altitude, even though they didn't make the technology, but they have yet to put a man on the moon or anything on mars, etc. I find it amazing that people think China and India are the hot beds of technology and yet they have done nothing when compared to the U.S.





(>25% of NASA is of Indian origin and im sure there's a sizeable amount of chinese in it too
)

And yet you impose visa restrictions!



posted on Nov, 18 2004 @ 11:38 PM
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About the helicopter record,i bet the US could break it by twice the current record,just that they don't want to waste time breaking a meaningless record.



[edit on 19/11/04 by W4rl0rD]




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