Putin Highlights Dark Side of America’s History in TV Interview

reply to post by ipsedixit


So even what happens inside Russia is now America's fault?

C'mon.... At least debate the points with a salient reply if my points of fact bother you. Perhaps it's the fact I recall Russia from the days they were the Evil Empire and the USSR, not the Russian Federation. It's absolutely about the fact Putin, whom you actually seem to admire, was a Colonel in the KGB which causes me to check for his nose growing longer as he talks. In fact one site rated his interview a 3 Pinocchio Performance. I'd call it 5, myself...but that's just me.

The KGB made the CIA look like amateurs all too often and their brutality was legendary. One of these days someone will challenge that fact of history and I'll finally get an open door to share some of my archives on that topic. It's a bit much to just avalanche a thread with though.

Now, it's important to note..I have nothing against the Russian people. It was quite surprising to realize when the wall came down in 1989 and we all finally got a clear and un-filtered look at those we'd been raised to be ready for war with that they didn't want it any more than we did. Leaders on both sides were a whole different matter...and still are in both Washington and Moscow.

The Russian people strike me as some of the most tolerant and warm folks the world has to offer though. I'm sure I'd get along well with the average person....if they could just shake free of the leaders they seem to end up with. Putin is a true commie's commie of the old school and the sooner he's out of the picture, the better off they'll all be IMO. THAT has to come from within though, so Obama better not get funny ideas, IMO. The bear has very sharp teeth.

I think the real question is would Hitler or the Japanese had dropped it.I would bet they would have. As far as Putin's revisionist rehab attempt of history's 2nd leading mass murderer...major fail.

lol maybe he should start with the 60 million killed within his own country because Stalin was paranoid. Take anything in America that was done wrongly and times it by 10 to get the same thing as the Russians.

As example: We tested radiation on terminally ill people without their knowing. Russia camped 1000s of young healthy soldiers by a radiated lake to see how long they can work before they are totally incapable due to radiation.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

So even what happens inside Russia is now America's fault?

Poor America, so misunderstood.

C'mon.... At least debate the points with a salient reply if my points of fact bother you. Perhaps it's the fact I recall Russia from the days they were the Evil Empire and the USSR, not the Russian Federation.

That is my point entirely. America is clinging to the Cold War.

I'm not naïve about Putin or about Russia or about Obama or about the Republican Party. When it comes to political BS, there is plenty of it to go around. I just think that at this juncture, Russia is talking a lot more sense than America is, and time is going to bear this out.

reply to post by ipsedixit


Who precisely is focused on the Cold War? If we're physically menacing Russia borders with nuclear bombers, I'd be interested in hearing about it. They certainly have been running bombers against and over our airspace.

Russian military again flies strategic bombers near Alaska

Two Russian bombers have been caught circling the US island of Guam in a 'highly unusual' move some are claiming shows President Vladimir Putin's growing strategic assertiveness towards America.

The aircraft - Russian Tu-95 Bear-H bombers capable of carrying nuclear weapons - flew over the western Pacific island just hours before Obama's state of the union address on Tuesday and were intercepted by Air Force F-15 jets.

Source

Now that's called making a statement like only a major world power can. Right before his State of the Union Speech too. Nice touch for a poke in the eye.

Russian Nuclear Bombers Fly Over U.S. Air Zones for Fourth Time in 9 Months

Russia to replace current bombers with subsonic flying wing

You do have to hand it to him... He's quick about updating the Russian Stratgic Nuclear Forces. Obama is trying to downsize by accounts...or so he claims anyway. Putin is going like gangbusters to update and expand the Sub, Bomber and Land Based Mobile Missile contingents of their nuclear forces.

Putin pledges Russian military expansion

That must be Putin trying for his Nobel Peace Prize. lol....

I'm the last one to ever suggest the US of the last 10+ years has resembled anything like a nation looking for peace. We need to be...but that's been late in coming and only by force of budgets at this point (to the extent it is). However, to suggest Russia is some bastion of freedom while we're worse? Or to suggest Russia has strictly honorable intentions while we're the evil in the world? Well... I believe that line of thought is naive and almost to extremes beyond understanding. The simple facts and world situation don't support it on any level.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

Who precisely is focused on the Cold War?

Precisely you. Just reread your assessment of Putin.

However, to suggest Russia is some bastion of freedom while we're worse? Or to suggest Russia has strictly honorable intentions while we're the evil in the world? Well... I believe that line of thought is naive and almost to extremes beyond understanding.

I didn't suggest any of that. I'm usually pretty precise about what I write.

reply to post by ipsedixit


Is there anything about my assessment of Putin that is factually inaccurate?

After graduating from Leningrad State University, Putin was assigned to work in the state security agencies. “My perception of the KGB was based on the idealistic stories I heard about intelligence.”

Then he spent a combined 10 months with a period splitting that in "retraining" whatever that means for their system. Odd, since he was top of the top for getting 1 of only a few slots available for entry without military service completed ahead of time.

That was when he drew attention from foreign intelligence officers. “Fairly quickly, I left for special training in Moscow, where I spent a year. Then I returned again to Leningrad, worked there in the First Main Directorate – the intelligence service. That directorate had branches in major cities of the Soviet Union, including Leningrad. I worked there for about four and a half years.”

Busy guy, busy spy. We are remembering here, Intelligence Officers are, quite literally, professional and highly trained liars right? It's not an insult, it's a pure description of the work they are trained to do. He was exceptionally good at it, to read his own BIO. (This is off a Russian site and his official one, by the way)

In 1985-1990, Vladimir Putin worked in East Germany. He served at the local intelligence office in Dresden. Over the course of his service, he was promoted to the rank of lieutenant colonel and to the position of senior assistant to the head of the department. In 1989, he was awarded the bronze medal issued in the German Democratic Republic, For Faithful Service to the National People’s Army.

(Source: Official Biography Page / Vladimir Putin)

In 1990, he moved on from his stellar career with the State Security Service and took up a position as assistant to the head of International Affairs at Leningrad University. In 1991 and concurrent to that position, he took another as "Chairman of the Committee for International Relations" at the St Petersburg City Hall. He also became a part of St Petersburg City Government. Such was his start into the world of politics.

Now that BIO leaves out enough during his years with the KGB to literally write books about, and they have been too. He was accomplished, as one way of putting it.

Perhaps you trust a professional Intelligence Officer as a nation's leader. I don't. I wouldn't trust a CIA Officer as our President and I sure don't trust Putin as theirs. That man is who sits across from our President today. At the time Putin was in 'higher education' for the world of Counterintelligence, Obama was partying with his 'buds' in college and day dreaming of who knows what. The two are in totally different classes, unfortunately.

Obama is badly outclassed here...and I'm not sure he has the humility to admit that, even to himself. Among most of his staff and advisers, he's the old man of the bunch. That is really scary given how both the U.S. and Russia are starting an old dance back up.

Putin is both right and wrong in my opinion. First of all, the issue of the atomic bomb. I am always critical of decisions of the US government on things of a military or clandestine nature, but think about this: IF the citizenry at the end of WWII had found out that Truman had a weapon that could have ended the war in Japan early, but didn't use it, what would they have done to Truman? He would have been run out of office. The US military themselves predicted millions of American dead, and many millions of Japanese dead, had the US had to invade mainland Japan. The Japanese would have fought tooth and nail, just like they did on most Pacific islands, till the last man was killed. So a president who can potentially save millions of lives for his country has a responsibility to do so.
And saying that Stalin would not have used the bomb is utterly ridiculous.

This is the same man who had the same mindset. He could have surrendered and given up his country and saved MILLIONS of Soviet lives. When the Nazis were initially kicking the Soviets' butts at the initiation of Operation Barbarossa, and were pushing into Russia, what did Stalin do? He kept throwing sheer numbers at them. He was sending lambs to the slaughter. Everyone should have heard by now about the Soviet troops who were sent to fight in pairs, sometimes in larger groups, when only one person had a weapon. When that person died, the next was supposed to pick up the weapon and continue fighting. And anyone who ran in the opposite direction of the enemy was immediately shot and killed. Stalin was brutal, and this just proves my point that he would have used an atomic bomb, IF it would have served his interests better than NOT using it. Which may have been the case. He wanted to get to Berlin just as bad as the allies, because there was top secret technology and personnel that he wanted to confiscate. So had he used an atomic bomb, it would NOT have been on Berlin for certain.

But I do agree that there is a large sense of hypocrisy in the US government and military. Eisenhower, who was one of the few presidents who understood how the military operated, warned the US population when leaving office about the military industrial complex. His words have come true, except for the fact that the American citizen has done nothing to stop or impede such a system. The US people have allowed their government to walk all over them and their Constitutional rights, and not just in recent times. The hypocrisy of the treatment of blacks, even after slavery ended, is a prime example. Although that was not just the government.

So Putin has a point there. But then again, what exactly CAN the people do against such a government. I am reminded of how the allies treated the German population after WWII. They essentially blamed them for the atrocities committed by the Nazis, when in fact there was absolutely nothing the people could have done. The allies said they should have opposed them. Ya, and get killed? Most of those condemning these German citizens would have done the same thing in their place. It is not as if Hitler allowed the people to see what he was at the outset of his reign. It was not until much, much later, when it was already too late, that the people found out what was actually happening. Many didn't find out until after the war. Why? Propaganda. The same thing is found in the US, but it is much more subtle.

So anyway, the same lack of opposition is happening in the US at the moment. There is nothing the people can do. We organized OWS, the largest protest on US soil probably ever, and what happened? The police and government actually infiltrated this PEACEFUL protest group, who had a permit, and attempted to sabotage them from the inside out. They sent people in there to give them a bad name. All this for a peaceful protest? Really? It just goes to show that those in power do not view your Constitutional rights as something they must respect. Basically the ONLY way the people have to stand up to the government is to nicely ask the government to stop what they are doing. Either through protest or through letters or personal appeals when possible. This puts no pressure on them, because what happens if they don't listen to you?

Nothing. One of them may get voted out of office in a few years, but not only is that a long time away, long enough for them to do extensive damage, but there are others just like them still in the government, and who will take their place. Just like Hitler, the side these politicians present to the US people is not their true side. It is not until long after they have gained their power that they are willing to strike. So can the people truly be blamed? Their only option would be to take up arms, which is what their Founding Fathers told them MUST be done when tyranny presents itself in the government.

this sacrifice the whole world should mourn together with the chosen people in the days of mourning 6 & 9 ava first and second temple , have translated the satanic talmud mygen.com... into Greek

reply to post by coolcatt


Vlad is just having opportunistic fun with you all.
I cant believe you are still falling for the Propaganda.

I mean really, this is just his opinion.
This opinion is occurring within an optimistic and fleeting mental state.

Any common idiot would be well aware of what Stalin would have done had he the
trigger to an Atomic Weapon in his grasp.

Hello?

Originally posted by ipsedixit


It is really a pleasure to watch a top politician carry on a dialogue like this at length, handling difficult questions with comparative ease and even having the grace to allow himself to be pushed around a little in a good humored way.

GREAT this is why i thought people would like the video.
Do you see Obama taking question like this NO!..I didn't want to really start a bashing of America like i said before but am guess people have there views which is great so lets put down the could of should of and would of.
I found the reply's very interesting on this subject and hope there's many more to come

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

Is there anything about my assessment of Putin that is factually inaccurate?

He was in the KGB. Go to the head of the class.

Perhaps you trust a professional Intelligence Officer as a nation's leader. I don't. I wouldn't trust a CIA Officer as our President and I sure don't trust Putin as theirs.

I don't think you know anything about politics or people or what you are talking about. If you do, you're not bringing it to the discussion.

Any country that had a well trained CIA officer at the top would have a very well educated and informed leader. What do you think the agenda of a CIA officer as leader of the United States would be, to garrote visiting heads of state when they weren't looking and steal their secret papers?

That man is who sits across from our President today. At the time Putin was in 'higher education' for the world of Counterintelligence, Obama was partying with his 'buds' in college and day dreaming of who knows what. The two are in totally different classes, unfortunately.

There is an important difference between these two people. During the Russian Revolution the Russian aristocracy was wiped out and during the Stalinist era the Russian middle class was wiped out. A whole class of Party apparatchiks rose in their places and rose through a very tough real world process of political and social warfare.

Any leader of Russia is almost guaranteed to be a realist, who practices realpolitik.

American leaders on the other hand have been run by an oligarchical class that has grown steadily in power for generations, to the point where they carried out a coup in 1963 to oust an uppity President. US Presidents since then have been a mixed bag of fruits and nuts.

The last President of the US was a marionette and the current one, though a huge improvement on the last one, is very much a man operating to an agenda dictated by people in the background.

Obama is badly outclassed here...and I'm not sure he has the humility to admit that, even to himself.

You are right to some extent, but I think that is a product of the situation I described above. I think Obama can do his job but he is hampered by the oligarchical baggage he is forced to carry. America itself is hampered by it. The worst educational crisis in the world today is the crisis of how to educate the American oligarchy, to bring them up to speed on what is happening in the world and how they can participate in it constructively. And they can. They just don't know how. They are locked in old paradigms.

The people in Putin's background, pulling his strings, are a completely different species of animal and much more real world realistic.

Among most of his staff and advisers, he's the old man of the bunch. That is really scary given how both the U.S. and Russia are starting an old dance back up.

This is the American problem. They are locked in the Cold War paradigm.

The Cold War is not going to start up again, unless America insists on falling into that modality because it is what America knows how to do and because the American Oligarchy cannot see a constructive new way to engage a new and different world.

America has Putins. They have lots of Putins but the American electoral process is now operated to ensure that America cannot bring its Putins into power to do the will of the American people. Americans are not evil people. They are led by an oligarchical class that has completely subverted the American Republic and is in the process of manufacturing a fascist entity in its place.

The only ones who can correct this situation are the American people themselves and they don't have to have a "Reign of Terror" to do it. They do have to speak truth to power.

They do have to stop cooperating in their own destruction.

Originally posted by JiggyPotamus
And saying that Stalin would not have used the bomb is utterly ridiculous.

As a politician Putin said exactly what any politician would have said, "Weeee . . . would never do that!!!

But I do agree that there is a large sense of hypocrisy in the US government and military. Eisenhower, who was one of the few presidents who understood how the military operated, warned the US population when leaving office about the military industrial complex. His words have come true, except for the fact that the American citizen has done nothing to stop or impede such a system. The US people have allowed their government to walk all over them and their Constitutional rights, and not just in recent times. The hypocrisy of the treatment of blacks, even after slavery ended, is a prime example. Although that was not just the government.

Agreed.

So Putin has a point there. But then again, what exactly CAN the people do against such a government. I am reminded of how the allies treated the German population after WWII. They essentially blamed them for the atrocities committed by the Nazis, when in fact there was absolutely nothing the people could have done. The allies said they should have opposed them. Ya, and get killed? Most of those condemning these German citizens would have done the same thing in their place. It is not as if Hitler allowed the people to see what he was at the outset of his reign. It was not until much, much later, when it was already too late, that the people found out what was actually happening. Many didn't find out until after the war. Why? Propaganda. The same thing is found in the US, but it is much more subtle.

Divided and conquered with bribes.

The American people, with few, largely marginalized or ostracized exceptions,
have been bought off. They have rolled over like whores from the top to the bottom of the society. Bidniss comes first, before all else.

Like the jackass in the Bible, they've sold their birthright.

www.biblegateway.com...

Once when Jacob was cooking stew, Esau came in from the field, and he was exhausted. 30 And Esau said to Jacob, “Let me eat some of that red stew, for I am exhausted!” (Therefore his name was called Edom.[a]) 31 Jacob said, “Sell me your birthright now.” 32 Esau said, “I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?” 33 Jacob said, “Swear to me now.” So he swore to him and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew, and he ate and drank and rose and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.

There is nothing the people can do. We organized OWS, the largest protest on US soil probably ever, and what happened? The police and government actually infiltrated this PEACEFUL protest group, who had a permit, and attempted to sabotage them from the inside out. They sent people in there to give them a bad name. All this for a peaceful protest? Really? It just goes to show that those in power do not view your Constitutional rights as something they must respect. Basically the ONLY way the people have to stand up to the government is to nicely ask the government to stop what they are doing. Either through protest or through letters or personal appeals when possible. This puts no pressure on them, because what happens if they don't listen to you?
. . .

So can the people truly be blamed? Their only option would be to take up arms, which is what their Founding Fathers told them MUST be done when tyranny presents itself in the government.

You sum it up very well but Americans can do a lot of things. One is study their own history. They can find out what their ancestors achieved and set about rolling back the roll backs. The "Occupy" movement was not focused properly on a specific agenda.

There is plenty to do in America. Repeal the Patriot Act. Recall uncooperative legislators. Insist that corporate taxes be paid and that offshore tax dodges be ended. Rehabilitate the Labor Movement in America. Put corporate and government crooks in jail. There's tons of stuff to do.

Americans have let things get out of hand. Now the problems are bewildering, there are so many of them, but I suggest Americans start small and start local and solve the most immediate problems. Check out Catherine Austin Fitts former under-secretary at HUD. She is all about this stuff.

Start solving the small problems together as communities of citizens and gradually work your way up to the big things.

America can do it. It always could. It just needs to be reminded of that.

Putin Highlights Dark Side of America’s History in TV Interview

One thing many do is fail to take historical event into context of the time in which it occurred. This means that if we can't grasp that archaic culture and belief dictated the actions of a given people or civilization, we tend to hold those times up against contemporary standards.

This goes for Russia, the US and every square inch of the planet and every split second of time from the day we were either created in the Garden of Eden or fell from the trees and learned to walk upright.

Humanity has indeed evolved. What we consider 'normal' today would have been shocking... even cardinally illegal across so many, many yesterdays. It works on the flip as well; norms contemporary to past ages are often considered barbaric, at best, today. The great leap is to understand that when all these events took place, many of them were not deemed anything but both normal and acceptable.

In sum, you can't blame Catholics today for the Inquisition of 500 years ago. You can't blame entire regions of America today for the horrid legality of slavery 150 years ago. You can't hold entire nations to blame for atrocities that happened centuries passed. Those people are all long dead and those alive today had no say whatsoever in any of it.

History is a school room where lessons are (supposedly) learned... not an eternal tribunal of retribution.

Of course, when it comes to politics, history is an all-too handy weapon when the need arises to demonize an opponent.

reply to post by redoubt

One of the historical lessons that could and should be learned by the American oligarchy is that Americans as a people are refugees from Empire.

They hate Empire.

Exhorting them to do Empire is . . . really dumb.

reply to post by Malynn


You gotta love how patriotic people are, YAY I WAS BORN ON THIS PART
OF THE PLANET! im so special! best PR move ever if you ask me, it to this
day ensures that even when something is terribly wrong, people will look the other
way, all because of peer pressure if you think about it lol . Truth is we should
care way more about people, the real way to use that bomb would have
been to let japan know we were gonna show them that they had to surrender
or that was it and then taken them to a test drop somewhere safe, hence
displaying the horror of that power without hurting anyone and giving them
one more chance to end it or else. that would have actually made sense.

realistically patriotism is generally a bad thing to have, it often destroys
more countries than it saves, be proud of honesty and integrity, not of
a thing that has not attributes other than what we give it is what i say.

Originally posted by ipsedixit
reply to post by redoubt

 

One of the historical lessons that could and should be learned by the American oligarchy is that Americans as a people are refugees from Empire.

They hate Empire.

Exhorting them to do Empire is . . . really dumb.

Well said!

reply to post by redoubt


List of things the British would do but Americans will not do to maintain Empire:

Crush resistance. (America, look "crush" up in the dictionary, or remember what your ancestors did to the American "Indians").

Take over, or build, the infrastructure of the country and use it to your own purposes, including the locals if they want to participate.

Move to the locality and set up communities of expatriots.

Learn the local language and bring up your children in the environment.

Impose a foreign legal system on the conquered.

Take on airs. Be Imperial. Be a snob. Despise and sneer at the locals in private while being condescending and occasionally fair, if a local deserves it, in public.

Trample local sensibilities, brutally if necessary.

Don't be sensitive because you are sensitive, but because you are pragmatic. Don't let sensitivity overrule pragmatism.

Build the institutions of your own country in theirs and make them run their lives through those institutions, not their own.


Does anyone think that there is any chance of Americans, the world's biggest xenophobes, ever getting down and dirty with the locals the way the British did in India?

Not a chance.

Americans as a people believe that "good fences make good neighbors". They don't like foreign stuff. They are too decent and fair minded to be "imperial". It's just not their thing.

American society was not created with the capability of doing Empire. British society was tailor made for it. Centuries of autocracy formed the British elite and the British commoners. When the chance to rule India came up both commoners and the elite jumped at it. Empire gives commoners a chance to be "elite" in a foreign land. They loved it.

American society has been formed by individualism and corporatism. America thinks an Empire is a collection of branch plants. They are wrong.

Empire is family.

To put it in a nutshell, Alexander the Great would be shocked that George W. Bush did not take an Iraqi wife, especially in a Muslim country.

Americans are noobs. They are a young country. They are rubes in over their heads and they are effing up.

reply to post by ipsedixit

I don't think you know anything about politics or people or what you are talking about. If you do, you're not bringing it to the discussion.

Just couldn't resist going there, could you? Had to make it personal with insults at least once. huh? That's disappointing and I've come to expect better from your chats....or I wouldn't have carried the debate this far with you. It's not shocking but disappointing.

By the way, I'd love to see your statements backed with more than purely your own personal opinions. I don't work in international affairs or policy analysis for a living. Nor do you that I'm aware of....hence...our opinions may be educated but still 100% personal in nature without supporting material.Obviously, I disagree strongly with yours.

Any country that had a well trained CIA officer at the top would have a very well educated and informed leader. What do you think the agenda of a CIA officer as leader of the United States would be, to garrote visiting heads of state when they weren't looking and steal their secret papers?

Your kidding me right? So now CIA case officers are trustworthy and people you wouldn't mind seeing run World class/power nations as executive leaders? I see..... I'm not sure if that's sincere..which would be disturbing..or just that creative to support your personal opinions about Putin? That's a real odd response to see on ATS, or anywhere for that matter. Wow.

American leaders on the other hand have been run by an oligarchical class that has grown steadily in power for generations, to the point where they carried out a coup in 1963 to oust an uppity President. US Presidents since then have been a mixed bag of fruits and nuts.

Having read the current Russian system and particularly under Putin described as an Oligarchy (and fitting that definition very well to my reading of it) I find it very interesting that of all the descriptions you might use? That would be how you'd describe the U.S. system as it's become. Project to others what you are, yourself. Not you, personally....but it's not a new approach for debate or international affairs with deflection at the national level. In fact, it's almost predictable enough to have become boring.

There are way's I'd describe my national Government these days...and Oligarchy isn't too far off, but hardly accurate either. The definition doesn't fit.

The worst educational crisis in the world today is the crisis of how to educate the American oligarchy, to bring them up to speed on what is happening in the world and how they can participate in it constructively.

Your use of the term here brings the need to define it, I think. We seem to have a major disconnect on what that word actually means to describe a national political system.

Rule by the few, often seen as having self-serving ends. Aristotle used the term pejoratively for unjust rule by bad men, contrasting oligarchy with rule by an aristocracy. Most classic oligarchies have resulted when governing elites were recruited exclusively from a ruling class, which tends to exercise power in its own interest. The term is considered outmoded today because “few” conveys no information about the nature of the ruling group.

Source

The United States has problems, indeed. I'm the first to recognize that and the last to deny it. We don't have a ruling class as defined by that, to rest in the hands of a few. There are TOO many cooks in the kitchen, if anything. Also, what ruling class did Obama come from? What ruling class for most of Congress? They're corrupt as the summer is hot, but that misses the definition of the term Oligarchy by a fair margin.

Sometimes..I wonder if true power consolidated within the hands of a FEW instead of nearly 600 people, the way our system is structured, wouldn't be better? Then the saying of 'Absolute Power, Absolutely Corrupts' comes to mind and the historic examples to bring truth to it and I'm content to deal with the bad that comes with our Republic system.

This is the American problem. They are locked in the Cold War paradigm.

If you say so. The Russian leader today was a high ranking officer within the Security Services that waged the cold war...personally. East Germany was the front lines of it. Where he served.

I get it though. Nothing in his background or character may be questioned while nothing good or decent exists within America. Yes, I definitely get your position here. Again, I couldn't disagree more.

You have your right to an opinion and I have mine.

It is a country we're talking about here, be definition, you can't have the whole country consist of good men, only enough to provide enough structural support and leadership to prevent a collapse. Like tensegrity, but with people.