Europe Alarmed by U.S. Surveillance

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Kick BHO's ass? You're all aware this program was created during the Bush years and implemented in secret under the republicans, yes?

Yeah, it was, but Obama expanded on it and fully supports it... plus there are probably documents out there detailing corruption in his administration, and what is Europe supposed to do? Get mad at Bush? Bush is currently happily painting pictures of dogs and taking painting lessons.

Allowing that previous to the Patriot Act, the U.S., apparently, used Canada, the U.K. and Australia to "spy" on U.S. citizens and give the results back to the U.S. as it was "illegal" for U.S. agencies to spy on U.S. citizens.

Of course, the U.S. did the same for Canada and Australia in return.

Allowing that much overlap between these nations, do you really think the European gov'ts want the U.S. to stop?
That they, themselves, are benefiting by the U.S.'s actions via data supplied back to them from the U.S.?

There really is no other way for the U.S. to clarify who, from Europe that is "visiting" the U.S. is legitimate or using their new "citizenship" as a cover for some other activity.

Everyone is being "check-out" these days...world-wide.

The reason, rightly or wrongly, that the majority of U.S. citizens support the NSA snooping is they feel they have nothing to hide and it allows the gov't a better opportunity to catch bad guys.

It is a valid argument.

Our European counterparts are feigning shock and anger but the reality is that they are most likely doing this as well and, in the case of the UK, they have access to prism.

The scandal deepened after it emerged that the Silicon Valley Internet giants may have been passing the acquired information on to the UK.


The Guardian reported that GCHQ, the UK's communications intelligence agency, has had access to data collected through PRISM program since at least June 2010, and last year generated 197 intelligence reports from it.

source: www.dailymail.co.uk... -controversial-project.html


Perhaps the other countries are whining about it because they don't have the same access.

Originally posted by Ange7Heart
But who knows, maybe he can sacrifice himself by telling the people the truth.
If I was him, it is exactly what I would do as president.

"Hey everyone, I am not the chain of command, I am being held captive in the white house and forced to do all these things, the ones that are doing all this are *hands out all the names of the elites* )

I would probably end up getting shot by doing that, but atleast I would ask the military to protect U.S civilians should anything happen to me.

I agree with you... if Obama really wants to make a difference, he can't be afraid of death, in all likelihood he is going to die anyway... retiring in Hawaii? Hmm... sounds a bit... too easy. If I were him, I would rather clear my character, but he does have a family.

Meanwhile, that would be totally ruthless to get someone's hopes up and be planning on slamming them with all of your dirty laundry, it shows the character of the real leaders.

Anyway, if the President doesn't have any power, and that is the highest level of office the people can elect, we have an issue here in our "Democracy."

Congress needs to grow some balls and stop worrying about getting more money in the bank, that should be the least of their worries. There is a window of opportunity here to make some real changes, but once it is closed, there won't be another.

reply to post by Crakeur


That could be true, do you think it is better if it is all out in the open or worse?

Originally posted by nwtrucker

The reason, rightly or wrongly, that the majority of U.S. citizens support the NSA snooping is they feel they have nothing to hide and it allows the gov't a better opportunity to catch bad guys.

It is a valid argument.

It is, but once again, who is a "bad guy." I think it might be pretty easy to say that it is someone non-violent with political criticisms. Which, by the way, totally makes this not a Democracy but an Oligarchy.

The program may not go against your average criminal, but what about your political blogger, caring senator or defiant Governor?

If we don't know the answer to that or have protections for them in place, we are already in trouble.

reply to post by darkbake


Well, it's hardly surprising the British MEP is calling for calm...Britain is up to it's neck in the spying scandal alongside the USA.

IN fact, it is a mutual agreement that circumvents the law on spying on one's own citizens...the simple answer?

Team up with a friendly country, and spy on each OTHERS citizens...that way, they can legitimately say they do not spy on their own citizens.

Yeah...let's not have a knee - jerk reaction

reply to post by darkbake


I'm not sure which is better. I was not surprised to read that the gov't had the ability to peek on our internet activity but I was surprised at the scope of available information. I am not bothered by anyone reading my mundane internet activity but I am bothered by the notion that, when I type some nonsense into google, that they can see it.

by exposing it, they've only confirmed what many suspected and alerted the unsuspecting to the issue. The reality of it is that anyone who is using the internet for nefarious purposes, is doing so under proxies and other such means to cover their illicit tracks. I can't imagine a terrorist is going to do anything without encrypting their conversation, or using proxies, phony names, internet cafes etc.

If anyone gets caught by these means, they are probably too stupid to actually pull it off anyway.

I know the gov't claims they stopped a terror attack thanks to prism but I am skeptical of this claim because we have, over the last decade, been told of many stopped attacks and this one seems to have not made any news at all while the others, which were mostly ludicrous operations where the feds convinced someone to blow something up, sold them the weapons, and then arrested them, make headlines. The one attack they claim was averted would have been so much more impressive than the others combined. If I'm a terrorist and I hear they arrested a guy and the back story behind the rest is clouded and vague, I'm more concerned about getting caught than if I hear that some moron was convinced to blow stuff up and then arrested for trying to blow stuff up.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Kick BHO's ass? You're all aware this program was created during the Bush years and implemented in secret under the republicans, yes?

You are correct. Get Bush on the plane with Obama when he goes and the EU can kick his ass too. Fair enough?

Oh my, where to start?

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
... as if other governments around the world arent doing the same thing.

You really think Berlin, London, Paris, Prague, Ankara, Tehran, Canberra are not using the same tools and methods to monitor peoples online activites? Turkey, Syria, Iran all invaded twitter, facebook, youtube during their uprisings. You dont need the NSA!

Everyones doing it, this wasnt anything new.

No other government has the capability to monitor all internet traffic because these are AMERICAN CORPORATIONS.
Do you really think Google, Facebook, Yahoo and other would allow Iran, China, Russia or any others access to it's servers? If you think that's possible, then you need to come back to reality.

There is a war for dominance in the spying and espionage world, and you can bet your behind that China and Russia are looking at this leak and crying into their cocoa. They can only WISH to have the kind of access to information the NSA seems to have, and neither has the capability to achieve this level of spying and intelligence gathering - no chance in hell.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Anon didnt 'leak'anything PRISM was publicly available information.

No, you're right. Anon has NOTHING to do with this at all. Edward Snowden is the young man responsible for leaking this information, and Anon is not connected to this in any way apart from the suggestion that his girlfriend had a picture out there on a blog of her holding a V for Vendetta mask.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Google, Facebook, Amazon all their CEO's are invited to the Bilderburg meetings for some time now, surely none of you were so niave to believe that the government wasnt monitoring Facebook, Google, Youtube, Myspace?

There's a big difference between us suspecting it, and governents and millions of citizens KNOWING it. You can make any kind of accusations you like, assume all kinds of things, but unless you have some proof, you can keep walking.
Scandals come about when a conspiracy theory is proven to be true with the release of EVIDENCE.
That's what has now happened.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
I think they are making such a big charade over this PRISM crap for soemthing coming up quick smart. Why else would other governments now be jumping on the anti-NSA bandwagon?

Because governments are supposed to answer to their people. Whether you think that's a charade or not is neither here nor there, the majority of people believe that their elected governments are there to work for them. Governments around the world now have no choice but to start demanding answers, unless they're willing (like the UK government seems to be) to publicly throw their own population under the bus.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Did anyone really believe they were anonomous online when almost everything asks for your name, date of birth, location?

I don't know what search engine you use, but none of them have ever asked me for a name, a date of birth or location.
I don't have to put that into any service I use, other than my bank account.

Even if this were the case, there is a difference between providing a private company limited information to enable them to provide a service to you, and a shadowy government agency hoovering up every bit of data on every citizen it can find out there, without any legal protections and no recourse for me to demand answers.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Me? If this was one person tracking me personally online i'd be concerned. Because he's focusing on me.
But if multiple groups were recording data on millions upon millions of people I couldnt give a rats. Because in the scheme of things even learning my name is a waste of time and I'm pretty sure they're watching specific types for specific reasons. So unless your in that catergory of 'should be monitored' calm down and take a toke!

I am always shocked when I see people using this truly stupid excuse of "if you've done nothing wrong.."

The Jews didn't do anything wrong.
The Unionists didn't do anything wrong.
The journalists didn't do anything wrong.
The gay men and women didn't do anything wrong.
The intellectuals didn't do anything wrong.

But Hitler decided that they were a problem, that they were a "threat to national security", or that they were holding his plans back, telling too much truth, exposing his Nazi machine in unflattering ways. So he disposed of the problem.

And to think, he murdered all those millions of people without the ability to look at a list pulled from a database. Imagine how many more millions of people he could have killed if he'd had even a fraction of the ability the NSA and - WHOEVER CONTROLS IT - has now.

I wonder if the NSA have developed an app for that. Patrolling a street and there you are, pinpointed on a Google map, with an associated file...

Originally posted by darkbake

There's widespread anger in Europe about the reports that the US accessed personal data from leading internet companies, if the fiery debate at the European Parliament is anything to go by. Commissioner Tonio Borg said the EU wants a "clear commitment" from the US to respect the rights of European citizens when it comes to data protection.

He said the commission would raise the issue with the US at a meeting in Dublin on Friday. The German MEP, Manfred Weber, said it was "completely unacceptable" that the US has different rules for its own citizens and those of other countries.

A Dutch MEP, Sophie In't Veld, criticised the commission for failing to protect EU citizens. She said the reports of surveillance cast doubt on the special relationship between Europe and the US. But the British MEP Timothy Kirkhope warned against knee-jerk anti-Americanism, saying "friends listen most when you talk and not when you shout."

BBC: Europe Alarmed by American Surveillance

Events have been set in motion.

He thinks our government considers them friends.
How quaint. LOL

Those nasty Americans, how dare they spy on us. Thank goodness the EU are trying to protect us. I thought we should leave the EU, but they are 'looking' out for us. Oh dear, the EU are now the good guys.
'Terrorism' An elderly gentleman shouting 'rubbish' in the British parliament was arrested under the law that protects us from terrorists. So we're pretty much doomed.

reply to post by darkbake


I agree totally! Yet the thread was on surveillance itself, not on the misuse of it.

It may even be safe to say the reason it wasn't abused more and earlier was due to the lack of technology that's available now.

"off the grid" is becoming an increasingly popular phrase, with some being off since the Vietnam era.....

Originally posted by Bassago
This is absolutely great. The US gov could give a rats a$$ about anything we say about this trampling of our rights. But other countries, yeah big time blow back (we can hope anyway.)

I hope they nail Obama to the wall for doing this.

edit on 11-6-2013 by Bassago because: clarification

All started with Bush, Obama will only point the finger that way and bush will fall in that "i got to much money to even get charges brought up on me" both has caused harm to the american people and to our constitutional rights

reply to post by St0mP121


if I recall correctly, bush's spying program was outed and the public outcry was such that they publicly shut it down and then retooled it to be less invasive (publicly).

I'm no fan of either man but, in Bush's case, they did, at the very least, put a public face of reversal on whatever it was they were doing. Obama and his crowd are basically telling us that it will remain as it stands and, oddly enough, now people don't seem to mind but when bush was doing a far less invasive type of spying, people were up in arms about it.

reply to post by Crakeur


Well, I actually think the system is set up to go after non-violent political dissidents.

They are already trying to target members of the A.P. who have the information from Snowden, why do you think Obama went after the A.P. phone records? To silence people, and find out who needed to be silenced.

Also, if they aren't doing anything wrong, why are they worried about it?

Not to mention Congress! Congress knows nothing about what is going on!

reply to post by Crakeur


Yeah, I do not understand this at all. My guess is there may have been something similar to subliminal messaging going on within the Democratic Party, keeping them from questioning Obama etc... some kind of ridiculously complicated series of justifications, I bet,

keeping them distracted by the trees so they could not see the forest.

reply to post by Agit8dChop


Europe has very strict laws concerning data protection, something not written into the US constitution, so no, London, Paris or Berlin wouldn't be allowed to get aw\y with doing it because it would be against the law, this is why the UK parliament is investigating to ensure GCHQ had no part in the US scandal.

Until the Patriot Act, international law stated it was illegal to spy on your own people, I hope the G8 countries really stick it to Obama over this

Originally posted by wulff
we have them here in the United Stated too, more and more going up!

I forget the figures but I think its something like a camera for every 30 people at the moment, and its STILL increasing. What I've noticed is that train and bus stations have the most, literally dozens per station, and nearly ALL of them look away from the stations
I may have to post a thread about them

Your siggy is one of the funniest I've seen

Finally!
I was really waiting for someone to get pissed over this!
The news covered it (very briefly) and seriously, no one cared!
Glad to see there are still sane people here on ATS that DO care.
Nice to know that I'm not alone.