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gay, anti gay.....who gives a ....!

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posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by Pinke
 


well said, I believe that if this is the Nature of politics, than it is up to us, the non politicians to redefine that nature, the best way to do that is to not play there game, but that is easier said than done apparently.

and thank you for the history lesson i was not aware of any of those things you mentioned about William Wallace. To let you know though i was not trying to idolize him, i was just using a speech in recent media that people could relate to and would sum up the long video, plus, accurate or not I like that movie.




posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 05:24 PM
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Indeed, but bridging the gap is first to realize we are all Human, maybe the ideology is not 'shared' amongst everyone, but we are all Human, i'm gay, your straight, but we are both Human, we can't bridge gaps when you have misconceptions thrown about, and us still not being recognized as normal, and accused of 'shoving it in peoples face'

so it goes hand in hand



posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by DocHolidaze
 


Eh? you are not bothered about for or against gay rights but want to close the divisions between us? that is what gay rights is about equality, to have no divisions between us all. For us all to be treated just as Human beings.
I get that you think this is a none issue but it is for many here, we are capable of dealing with more than one issue you know.
edit on 13-6-2013 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)


There is ONLY ONE issue to deal with if all came together to deal with that issue, the smaller petty issues follow suit. The ones in charge want us diveded so they have divided us. They know as long as we bicker amongst ourselfs we will never challenge the system, if fact we now serve the system more so than before because we divide up and fight over scapes like wild dogs. I would like to see all the wild dogs of humanity form a pack and go on a hunt.

reply to post by Darkblade71
 


see above



posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by Darth_Prime
 


I cant agree with you on that. I believe that you and I could have differences in every which way and even be considered enemy's. But as the saying goes the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

the enemy that we share controls the economy, controls the laws that are passed, spy's on us in everything we do, steals from us, has the greatest army the world has ever seen, has the ability to be judge jury and executioner, and only see's you and I as a resource and not a person.

No matter how much we dont agree on anything I would proudly stand next to you in the defiance of tyranny.
edit on 13-6-2013 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by DocHolidaze
 


Likewise, but not all people would forgo the 'Homosexuality' to band together, same could be said about any 'Group' race,religion,sexuality, many place there ideologies above comprehension of 'Humans' many see each other as our 'Ideologies' or our 'Sexuality'



posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 08:25 PM
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as with any group there are sincere people and people out for the $$.

The sincere people simply want to be able to love. have the same rights as other people have when they love someone.

How can 2 people be in love and commit their lives to one another and when one passes...the other has no right to see them, no right to anything...because the law doesnt approve of their love....

that is what the sincere people are fighting for....the right to love...the right to love someone and not have the law say...sorry...because you are gay...you have no representation under the law....

we are all human..... we have the inside desire to find that person we want to spend the rest of our lives with....why should the law dictate who that can be?

How can two people commit their lives to one another and be treated so inhumanely....when they pay taxes just like anyone else to the government?


Its not about forcing anything on anyone...its about being accepted in society for who you are....turn it around...imagine straight folk being treated like gays are by the law....

its rediculous.

love and let love! thats all most want...to be treated fair...as an equal....as a human...

im affraid ill never be able to love...because of post like those in here....i want to be treated equal.....i want to be seen for what i am... a human....a citizen of hte us who pays taxes.....but im affraid becuase of things like post that are in this thread....im affraid to for once in my life...live a life that makes me happy....

there are millions in the same boat...but why? why should that be? how can that be? we live in the USA??? the melting pot of the world....and yet everyday people are targeted.....familys are ruined....friendships lost.....jobs lost....security gone....because someone simply loves someone.........that happens to be the same sex as them....

its not a choice....its not a decision......its what people know...its how they feel...its who they love....

stop judging...start loving....be happy that another human is happy....



posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by Pinke
 

well said, I believe that if this is the Nature of politics, than it is up to us

Absolutely!


i was not aware of any of those things you mentioned about William Wallace. To let you know though i was not trying to idolize him

Mostly I was just adding to your point.


I think the video posted is even more relevant with the true history behind it. How often do we have history rewritten to carve new meanings to distort us, drag us behind a figure head and then state ... X historical figure would have done Y ... should we not do the same?! As if Abraham Lincoln knew flying robots would one day be a thing.

We live in a constant everlasting present where our historical figures are heroes, and the people of today are but pale shadows fallen from our true grace. All the original thoughts were made before us by historical figures and we should bow to their judgement.

And normally I wouldn't say something like this, but I think its dismissing the larger point to lambast Doc for choosing homosexuality as a backdrop for the main point.

Have we not seen how in this very thread we are cutting ourselves into divisions? How we have already drawn lines in the sand? By doing this we are proving the thesis of Doc's thread.

Am I for things like gay marriage? Yes.
Do I think there are things more important than gay marriage? Yes!

We let those above us declare the agenda and claim the desire for greater issues is miss-founded idealism. Below is Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The idea is you need to achieve the bottom layers of the pyramid to move towards the top.


How many of us can honestly say you're at the top on a consistent basis?

We certainly don't respect others by accusing all we meet of being leftists, fascists, progressives, and moral relativists. We're neutered from the start of these conversations because we often only accept one of two answers. I'll leave with a quote from the beloved (and despised) George Carlin:

Americans are meant to feel free by the exercise of meaningless choices.
You know what the choices are in this country? ... Paper or plastic? Aisle or window? Smoking or non-smoking?

-- George Carlin

Add gay / anti-gay and Republican / Democrat and we're pretty much up to date.
edit on 13-6-2013 by Pinke because: neutered



posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 11:19 PM
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reply to post by ajm4481
 


this not a thread about gay rights, please stop, and btw there are legal ways to give your boyfriend/girlfriend your stuff when your dead, and medical rights in case you were hurt.

So dont give me the same sob story about that, somebody on this thread already tried that with that video about the two guys that were so in love but couldn't marry so one killed himself. and then at the end of it all was an OBAMA plug,

that was the sadest thing in the video. If the dude really loved his boyfriend he would of stuck around to be with him, instead he jumps off a building.

He was probably on phyc meds. because society made him "so stressed out" that he couldn't get married. So he went to his Doc got an antidepressant of which he didn't need, starting taking them, which f'd him up even more, so he decided to jump off a building.

You see what the Government did there, they made up a non issue, to cause a reaction, through media tactics. When they cause a negative feeling and put out a crap load of prescription drug ads making people they can make the negative feeling go away with a pill, but then the fda puts a warning on that pill that says "may cause death" so when it does cause death, the goverment is off the hook. and then they get a hold of the story and make a political propaganda video out of it to get Obama elected. Gays and there cause just just got used like a dirty whore. Not only did they make money off you they successfully divided the people

And as this is happening massive groups of people are uniting and gathering to fight the very cause you are pushing for. So imagine all the wasted energy that is used for something so pointless.

Because one day everyone's freedoms will be gone and and all the "gay rights" that was won for your cause will mean nothing.

These paragraphs that I wrote are purely speculation, I dont know what happened between those two dudes, I used the well known story to present ideas that can be taken and thought about in other contexts as well.

ONE THING I DO KNOW FOR TRUTH IS THAT VIDEO WAS A POLITICAL PROPAGANDA AD


reply to post by Darth_Prime
 




and darth like i said before that is what im saying i just used gay because it seems to be an ever increasing topic on ats especially lately. all i have seen bickering and wasted breath, worthless causes and pointless preaching over many issues. lets forgot the small stuff and go after the root
edit on 13-6-2013 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)
edit on 13-6-2013 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 12:26 AM
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Indeed, i am certain many would concur we must forget the 'small stuff' to band together to fight the 'big stuff', i understand you are utilizing 'Gay' as a replaceable example, but as a gay male i am going to continue to utilize it,

many of the small things, are not entirely small to us, is there a bigger picture out there? indeed there is, but as races and genders before we have to 'fight' to be considered human,

i am not attempting to turn this into a Gay rights argument,



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 01:04 AM
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reply to post by Darth_Prime
 


i know u were not that part of the post was for the other dude.

As Pinke was pointing out thats kinda the point, for you to say "as a gay male i feel this way about this and that" is what this thread is about.

We live in a time of selfishness not selflessness. I am guilty of being part of that, I am willing to make changes on a personnel level as not to be selfish anymore. Acting selfless may be what we need to stand together in order change our reality.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by Pinke

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by Pinke
 

well said, I believe that if this is the Nature of politics, than it is up to us

Absolutely!


i was not aware of any of those things you mentioned about William Wallace. To let you know though i was not trying to idolize him

Mostly I was just adding to your point.


I think the video posted is even more relevant with the true history behind it. How often do we have history rewritten to carve new meanings to distort us, drag us behind a figure head and then state ... X historical figure would have done Y ... should we not do the same?! As if Abraham Lincoln knew flying robots would one day be a thing.

We live in a constant everlasting present where our historical figures are heroes, and the people of today are but pale shadows fallen from our true grace. All the original thoughts were made before us by historical figures and we should bow to their judgement.

And normally I wouldn't say something like this, but I think its dismissing the larger point to lambast Doc for choosing homosexuality as a backdrop for the main point.

Have we not seen how in this very thread we are cutting ourselves into divisions? How we have already drawn lines in the sand? By doing this we are proving the thesis of Doc's thread.

Am I for things like gay marriage? Yes.
Do I think there are things more important than gay marriage? Yes!

We let those above us declare the agenda and claim the desire for greater issues is miss-founded idealism. Below is Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The idea is you need to achieve the bottom layers of the pyramid to move towards the top.


How many of us can honestly say you're at the top on a consistent basis?

We certainly don't respect others by accusing all we meet of being leftists, fascists, progressives, and moral relativists. We're neutered from the start of these conversations because we often only accept one of two answers. I'll leave with a quote from the beloved (and despised) George Carlin:

Americans are meant to feel free by the exercise of meaningless choices.
You know what the choices are in this country? ... Paper or plastic? Aisle or window? Smoking or non-smoking?

-- George Carlin

Add gay / anti-gay and Republican / Democrat and we're pretty much up to date.
edit on 13-6-2013 by Pinke because: neutered


Well put yet again, and thank you for pointing out the thesis, it was starting to get lost in the shuffle. History is a funny thing though, one mans hero can be anothers villain but in the end that person in question may never of even existed but just a good idea written down by the winners.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 01:24 AM
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reply to post by DocHolidaze
 


Indeed, i comprehend your point, likewise i would fight for anyone, even if i don't agree with their ideology or religion,

i'm still young, early twenties, and i've seen far more discrimination than anyone should, been abused physically, mentally, and verbally, among other atrocities, atrocities, and i would still fight for anyone who was getting discriminated against, who wasn't thought of as 'Human' or considered a 'Sub-Human' regardless if they were the same people that attacked me, or a religious group etc,

one day i may require assistance from someone, and one day that someone may require assistance from me



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by Darth_Prime
reply to post by blackz28
 


Take off every straight couple, there is nothing wrong about a gay couple adopting

are you upset about 'Homosexuality' or 'Sexuality' in general?

i've had this conversation prior, take off any straight relationship off the Telly, take off 'Straight' interaction, why single out just us gays?

and this is the problem, it's still 'Uncomfortable' and not accepted, instead of a gay couple on the sitcom, it's 'gays shoving it in our face again', why would we have to act 'straight' in society to not be accused of 'shoving it down your face'
hey they can have the bravo channel , im good with that sorta like BET network , but i dont need the the whole gay ajenda in every program that comes on



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by blackz28
 


this is not what this thread about, if u dont like tv stop watching it,

Do you see what there doing to you, they created a negative feeling all because they control what is on the box. And there is nothing you can do about it. You have been manipulated, the goverment has tricked you into believing that it actually matters what is on tv. Tv is one of there greatest tools they use against us.


divide et vincas


Let go of what you know and rethink what is truth.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 03:56 PM
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I'd say cheers to the South African human rights activists who happen to be gay, such as Simon Nkoli, Zackie Achmat and Edwin Cameron.

Without their voices and selfless struggles for human rights, we probably would never have gone from a country with highly homophobic laws in 1994, to laws that ensured equal marriage in 2006, and rights for 5.5 million HIV positive people (mostly heterosexuals in SA).

Thanks to all the gay people in the US who cared for people with AIDS and stood up, when all the anti-gay haters could do was spit gleeful homophobia and various useless conspiracies.

Thanks to people like Peter Tatchell and Judith Butler, who fight for rights they believe to be right outside the gay community, even if I don't support all their causes.

From my view the gay community is not monolithic, and it has issues of race, class and gender.
Last year the Joburg Pride Parade was interrupted by radical lesbian feminists, who felt it had become too much of an elitist party, and did little to address the problem of the "curative rape" (raping a lesbian to make her straight) of black lesbians in the townships.
It called the parade a "pinkwash", far removed from the initial parade around 1990 when several people were so scared of the security police that they wore paper bags over their heads.

However, I think it is a bit one-sided to only look at the gay movements.
Has anyone seen the hateful and stereotypical arguments made about gay people on ATS?

If one looks at the most homophobic countries and movements today, most of them are cult-like religious fundamentalists who use arguments of a "gay agenda" to make their own tyrannical world-views politically relevant.
Has anyone considered their religious agenda and views on child-rearing?
Is their anti-gay agenda (just the tip of the iceberg of what they believe) not divisive?
I've yet to see one of these anti-gay religious groups that don't also abuse women and children behind the scenes.
Are they the force for "good" and we must all just remain silent until they rule?
No thank you.

Sorry, it takes two to tango, and I don't care if they use dated nonsense and outright lies to demonize all gay people, but it's a bit much to expect gay people not to respond.
Sure, use us to make heterosexuality look good and natural (what else is there?), but why call it an "agenda" when gay people respond, or market forces are interested in gay characters in entertainment?

While any group that gains some acceptance in the mainstream can be co-opted by power (including parts of the gay movement, I'm sure) I don't see how standing up for gay equality is not standing up for human rights in general.

Anyway, the projection of homosexuality onto a gay minority seems to serve a wider purpose.
It ensures that male rape in cults, prisons and war zones hardly becomes an issue.
These male tortures can't exist because good, homophobic straight men would "never do that".
And the same politicians who speak on heterosexist "family values" encourage wars and laws that lock up people in single-sex situations, sometimes for their entire lives for victimless crimes.

The horrendous and widespread problem of male rape in war zones, usually perpetrated by homophobes, can thus be distanced from global gender work, or activism by the men's movement.
Thousands of men are victims every year, yet it's not even really considered "rape".
It's considered "forced homosexuality".
So I suppose rape is then "forced heterosexuality"?
Why don't men speak for the rights of other men?
www.huffingtonpost.com...

Yeah, some just call the gays anything they like: "demoniacs", "pedophiles", "coprophiliacs", "unnatural" and the actual cause of diseases and the fall of civilizations (pretty funny coming from religious groups that actually split and destroyed civilizations).
Call us "selfish" for all I care.
In democratic countries we can respond and say we know who the selfish people are.
Just look at who sprouts hateful homophobia every day, and who gets minions to donate money and work for free while they live in luxury.

So gay rights also seem relevant to human rights activists.
Those who are violently against such rights will also roll back other rights - that is for sure.
Even if I wasn't gay, I couldn't think of a single country with homophobic laws I'd like to live in today, because their human rights records in general are far worse than whatever is going on in the countries with gay rights.

But yes it can be a "pinkwash" and too militant in instances.
It can also undermine the struggles and selflessness of the past if people are only interested in using their freedom for a big, irresponsible, hedonistic party.
There are issues, although they are not unique to the gay movement.

However, as long as there is public homophobia one can expect a public gay response.
One would have to watch what's going on, and take things instance by instance.
There are important things going on that effect all people for sure.
But I can't make a sweeping statement that any group should stay silent if they are targeted on the premise that everything is divide and rule.
If that's the premise without prejudice then one should make a thread about ALL the people who divide us.

edit on 14-6-2013 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by blackz28


This right here is why we can't 'Band Together' to fight the bigger cause, because of the accusations of 'Gay Agenda' infecting the straight T.V channels, segregating us to the 'Bravo Channel'

if we can't exist n the same T.V how can we exist to 'Band Together' in real life ?



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


you see what happened there...

you took time and energy in order to explain why gay rights is a big deal and it needs to be addressed. Time and energy will be spent to refute your argument and round and round we go.

Instead spend your time and energy to help gays only, get out the word that we must change the infrastructure that uses gays like whores to further an agenda that will put all in a state of distress, not just one group.

If you would of read the thread instead of just responding i wouldn't have to type this again.

also if you would of read the thread you would know this is not a thread about gay rights or anti gay dribble, i would appreciate it if we kept on topic.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by DocHolidaze
 

I spoke of many rights: anti-apartheid activists, human rights activists, the rights of HIV-positive people in South Africa, the men's movement and male rape, the prison system and rights, child and woman abuse in some religion ...
I spoke of gay people who advanced human rights outside the gay community.

I spoke of gay responsibilities, pinkwashing and some gay people who were "selfless" (the word "selfish" is actually used in the OP) ... but I guess if all one wants to hear is "Gay Rights!" (to put it in the milder terms expressed) then that's all they're gonna hear.


I concluded that gay rights and their abuses should be accessed on an instance by instance basis, and not sweeping statements.
I think that's a fair response and argument.

If you just want to negate gay rights at all costs that's fine.
But historically gay rights arose as a reaction to certain situations, and I have a right to talk about that on ATS too.
One can't just tell the gay rights activists to selectively shut up, while others would like to see them stripped of all rights.
What single human right have you advanced?

edit on 14-6-2013 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by DocHolidaze
 

I spoke of many rights: anti-apartheid activists, human rights activists, the rights of HIV-positive people in South Africa, the men's movement and male rape, the prison system and rights, child and woman abuse in some religion ...
I spoke of gay people who advanced human rights outside the gay community.

I spoke of gay responsibilities, pinkwashing and some gay people who were "selfless" (the word "selfish" is actually used in the OP) ... but I guess if all one wants to hear is "Gay Rights!" (to put it in the milder terms expressed) then that's all they're gonna hear.


I concluded that gay rights and their abuses should be accessed on an instance by instance basis, and not sweeping statements.
I think that's a fair response and argument.

If you just want to negate gay rights at all costs that's fine.
But historically gay rights arose as a reaction to certain situations, and I have a right to talk about that on ATS too.
One can't just tell the gay rights activists to selectively shut up, while others would like to see them stripped of all rights.
What single human right have you advanced?

edit on 14-6-2013 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)


ok dude when one reads your op there is a certain theme to it of which you cant deny, so i didnt just hear what i wanted to hear,

I never said i wanted to negate gay rights at any cost, in fact i have stated before that once the root problem is addressed than the smaller more isolated issues can and would be advanced in a more positive direction than they are now.

As I stated before I used gay rights as a theme to a broader message because ever since the obama/anti obama and gun control/ anti gun control pointless conversations have slowed on ats gay/anti gay is the new hot pointless conversation

I am not telling anyone to shut up in fact I want to people to speak louder with a unified voice instead of sounding like a field of bickering crickets.

I am an advocate of free will, everyday I say what i want and do as I please, I try and use my actions and words to help instead hurt, to inspire instead of demean, to spread truth instead of perpetuate lies. Im not always successful in my endeavors, but I believe if i keep trying every day I just may help humanity as whole(even if it be in the most slightest of ways), and if I do not succeed, it will not be a wasted life. I would say that is more than most people do.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 01:32 AM
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in order to speak louder as a group, we would have to stop discrimination, and dehumanization, this absurd concept of a 'gay agenda throwing it in your face'

nothing is pointless when a group of people is being discriminated, abused, dehumanized etc, based on sexuality,race,gender.religion etc, we can concur that the media and government exploit certain group's to create a divide amongst the people, they pray on the misconceptions and disinformation, but someone has to stop the hate






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