What happened before the big bang?

reply to post by UnknownKnower

What happened before the big bang?

The Big Crunch, of the previous Universe. Yeah, yeah, I know we think we've shown that the Universe is rapidly expanding, which seems to point away from this, yada yada yada.....but, since most things in the Universe are in cycles, I somehow doubt the Universe itself, is any different. Not like any of us will be around to know anyhow. I just think it will take a LONG time before we have the Big Chill, and then the Big Crunch.

I don't think there ever was a beginning to the cycle...I think it has just always been. Bang, Expand, Cool, Crunch, Bang, Expand, Cool, Crunch.....Just like a star...but slower

Speak for yourself, I'll be right here watching and drinking a cuppa joe.

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by FlySolo

 

You know I was going to say you can't undo time but funny part is in QM you can, We have shown the future can change the past so now that I think about it makes a different perspective on where the biginnibg is.

Lol, can you provide a source which describes this statement being true? (the future changing the past)

If memory serves correctly, Thomas Gold wrote about this concept in is book "The Nature of Time,"

I highly suggest reading it, although due to my ignorance of math I cannot say whether or not it is precise or accurate.

The man did, however, hire Carl Sagan, so he seems to be held in some high regard. That being said, I don't really know much.

the book may be bought here compare.ebay.com...

or here www.amazon.com...

and elsewhere

of course, your local library may posses it. I'm sorry that I'm unable to find a .pdf, however the book is somewhat obscure and I doubt anyone will bother to read this post, let alone a pdf.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by FlySolo

 

You know I was going to say you can't undo time but funny part is in QM you can, We have shown the future can change the past so now that I think about it makes a different perspective on where the biginnibg is.

Lol, can you provide a source which describes this statement being true? (the future changing the past)

Here I'll describe the experiment in basic terms first what they did. An experiment was run "Experimental Delayed-Choice Entanglement" doesn't sound like much but this would have sent Einstein into a coronary. Effectively what they did was a machine would randomly decide if a second experiment would run after the first.But only after the first experiment was completed. And amazingly they showed the 1st experiment was indeed effected if the second experiment was ran. QM predicted the results of the first experiment depended on if the second experiment was run and now has been verified no wonder Einstein though QM was spooky huh.

arstechnica.com...

reply to post by dragonridr


I think what your referring to is Wheeler's delayed choice experiment. It's rather mind numbing once you wrap your head around it. First you need to understand the Copenhagen experiment (double slit theory) then take that a step further.

With every delayed choice you make regarding which slit to watch photons travel trough, the (future) photons will already know your (past) decision. While what you may think is the "present" choice, is really a choice from the past seeing the photons already made their choice before you made yours.

Ouch.

reply to post by dragonridr


Reading your article. I think I have another theory about time, universe etc. While our time is linear to us, perhaps, wait for it....drum roll please...

Time is moving backwards!

Let me explain. Let's assume the "now" is based on future decisions from the quantum world. The delayed choice experiment shows this. Yet, to our senses in the 3rd D, it is a mirrored effect of time in the 4th D. This would fit in perfectly to explain how future choices affect the past (present). It would also explain why the universe is accelerating as opposed to decelerating. It would also explain why we can't fathom a "beginning" because there is no beginning yet. The universe's creation is based on quantum future events.

Now my brain hurts

reply to post by FlySolo


If time should moving in a direction that is reverse of what it is now, that would mean entropy (disorder) decreases as time moves "forward" (in this new reversed direction of time).

Therefore, and example of entropy decreasing would be the waves on a beach depositing sand until it builds up into a perfect sandcastle.

Personally, I feel the simplest explanation of QM behavior is that the celerity and physics of space-time do not apply to every medium.

Just how sound will move differently in air and water.

Space-time may only be relevant to itself, in that it is a specific medium within the enormity of all that exists.

When you take it out of the equation, one would expect to see the exact behavior that we witness in our explorations of the quantum scale.

Itll be a while before we really have these things figured out, but I do have a question for those in this thread;

What experiments have you done in these regards? I would really love to hear about the creativity of the people who are exploring these things. I also hope its not just google that is providing peoples understandings, but an actual experimental and personal basis. I believe that is what science is ALL about! Even if we cant build the equipment like a particle collider, we can do math, and then figure out NEW experiments and ways of exploration to be reviewed and participated in by everyone that enjoys science.

Originally posted by FlySolo
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Reading your article. I think I have another theory about time, universe etc. While our time is linear to us, perhaps, wait for it....drum roll please...

Time is moving backwards!

Let me explain. Let's assume the "now" is based on future decisions from the quantum world. The delayed choice experiment shows this. Yet, to our senses in the 3rd D, it is a mirrored effect of time in the 4th D. This would fit in perfectly to explain how future choices affect the past (present). It would also explain why the universe is accelerating as opposed to decelerating. It would also explain why we can't fathom a "beginning" because there is no beginning yet. The universe's creation is based on quantum future events.

Now my brain hurts

OMG... I've thought the same thing for years (time is moving backwards), but I don't know how to justify the thought. Something that I firmly believe is that 'everything happens for a reason'. Well, this is inherently a backwards thought; things don't happen for something, but happen BECAUSE of something.

Thoughts?

Interesting thread.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


That does fit nicely into this as well. Pretty much describes what we already know about evolution. Just had a thought come to mind to describe how I see it regarding entropy.

a movie in reverse.

reply to post by Euphony


I've never thought about that till now. It does kind of make sense.
Right now? mind=blown

Before the Big Bang, there was an area of "false vacuum" i.e. vacuum at a higher energy state. Then, it spontaneously decayed to a lower energy state and, boom!, the Big Bang happened.

It's called the Chaotic Inflation theory, and implies that our universe is just one of many existing in the multiverse.

en.wikipedia.org...
curiosity.discovery.com...

Originally posted by Minus
As the black holes sucks up more and more matherial they greatly increase in power - physichs we yet dont understand - and at the end they will suck in all matter and energy and atract each other in to one big implosion and enter a state theres was right before the big bang.

as this state cannot be maintained for very long it will re explode into a new big bang, and 13 billion yearts later some semi intelligent idiots will sit in a forum and discuss what happened before the big bang

Good theori
thanx

Originally posted by FlySolo
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

That does fit nicely into this as well. Pretty much describes what we already know about evolution. Just had a thought come to mind to describe how I see it regarding entropy.

a movie in reverse.

edit on 29-6-2013 by FlySolo because: better example

Evolution is not a decrease in entropy (decrease in disorder). Evolution is simply change.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

Change to perfection. Entropy in reverse.

Originally posted by FlySolo
reply to post by dragonridr

 

I think what your referring to is Wheeler's delayed choice experiment. It's rather mind numbing once you wrap your head around it. First you need to understand the Copenhagen experiment (double slit theory) then take that a step further.

With every delayed choice you make regarding which slit to watch photons travel trough, the (future) photons will already know your (past) decision. While what you may think is the "present" choice, is really a choice from the past seeing the photons already made their choice before you made yours.

Ouch.

There is an expansion on this (a thought) experiment where the source of photons is a star whose light has been bent by gravitational lensing of a galaxy, i.e the photon tested could take on path or another and the result of the test would determine which path it took. ie an experiment in the present would (if the theory is correct) determine an event that happened millions of years in the past.

There's a few ways to interpret this imo. 1) the DS experiment is BS (or a photon is neither a wave nor a particle but a third thing that no one can conceive). 2) space and time are relative to a photon traveling at light speed; ie time from the photons perspective stops, it is simultaneously at point a and b and does not actually travel through space-time. 3) you have sum over all histories, where subatomic events only exist as a wave function that collapse in to the most probable reality, which i think is the Copenhagen interpretation, i just have a curiosity knowledge of such things. Interesting tho.

reply to post by dragonridr


Hm interesting, I personally dont believe quantum entanglement is 'quantum entanglement', so I dont know what to make of it. What do you make of it, what is the logical conclusion to arrive at given all details of the experiment and knowledge of the universe? That when you measure light at point A, light measured at point B is also affected?

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Hm interesting, I personally dont believe quantum entanglement is 'quantum entanglement', so I dont know what to make of it. What do you make of it, what is the logical conclusion to arrive at given all details of the experiment and knowledge of the universe? That when you measure light at point A, light measured at point B is also affected?

Well i see 3 possibilities all very strange. But it involves time i think we have very little understanding of time funny thing is we think we do. first thing is time is now past and present dont exist just now problem is now is dependent on the observer einstein showed us this. We know we can have people living in different versions of time at the same time so think everything thats ever happened or will happen is happening right now!

"People like us who believe in physics know that the distinction between the past, the present and the future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion" Albert Einstein

The other possibility is time is fixed kind of picture a universe where past present and future occupy the same space this means that essentially the universe is in essence layers of time occupying the same space just not the same time.Each can have there reactions creating a new page so to speak. So when we move thru time we move through kinda layers best example is drawing pictures on pages then flip through them they appear to move.

And finally the universe is predetermined so anything cant happen because it all ready did and can be no other way throws free will out the window not very fond of this one.

Originally posted by dragonridr

Well i see 3 possibilities all very strange. But it involves time i think we have very little understanding of time funny thing is we think we do. first thing is time is now past and present dont exist just now problem is now is dependent on the observer einstein showed us this. We know we can have people living in different versions of time at the same time so think everything thats ever happened or will happen is happening right now!

No I dont agree that everything thats ever happened or will happen is happening right now, thats extremely foolish statement (even though i know how you mean it, it is wrong to say).

So there is a finite quantity of energy, lets say there exists right now 1,000 particles of energy. All these particles came into existence at the same moment, the big bang (maybe, but for sake lets say they did). Because physical variables such as reletive distance and velocity and angular momentum and inherent traits of each particle depend on those physical variables, every particle of energy that exists is not =, there are a bevy of types of particles. So now imagine a football field (american, 100 yards long), Imagine there is one particle that naturally, fundamentally, inherently can only travel 10 yards a second. Another particle can only travel 100 yards a second. They would have different energy levels, and would most likely experience time differently (because an experience of time depends on the relative motion of all other physical data surrounding one, and the physical variables of oneself). So its interesting the speed of light seems to be a cosmic common denominator as far as limits of speed, (and what would K/absolute zero be the speed limit on the slow end of things?), so there is the bottem and the top, and then everything can fall in line and be compared to everything else.

Basically time is causality. The fact that event A must happen in order for event B to occur, and when and only when event B occurs, event C is able to occur and so on. I.e., the universe had to be in a different state or establishment earlier on in order for this exact state to be expressed right now (i.e., your parents had to first meet, in order for you to be born, and their parents before them).

"People like us who believe in physics know that the distinction between the past, the present and the future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion" Albert Einstein

Einstein is one of my favorite people ever, but I would disagree because of what I stated above. Im also surprised he would say this, and hesitant to believe this wasnt taken out of context or was said at all.

The other possibility is time is fixed kind of picture a universe where past present and future occupy the same space this means that essentially the universe is in essence layers of time occupying the same space just not the same time.Each can have there reactions creating a new page so to speak. So when we move thru time we move through kinda layers best example is drawing pictures on pages then flip through them they appear to move.

The only way this would be possible is if energy and matter were not really physical and real. If there is energy and matter, and it cannot be created or destroyed but only changes forms, that means that the past or the future cannot exist right now, because all the energy and matter that took on the forms in the past, is now in its present form, and all the energy and matter that is now in its present form, will continue to change forms, to create the establishment of energy and matter of the future.

And finally the universe is predetermined so anything cant happen because it all ready did and can be no other way throws free will out the window not very fond of this one.

Nah, I dont believe in predetermination. One of the most interesting things, is how everything is composed of the micro, yet the macro can control the micro. If anything I think there were probabilities, potentials, and limits regarding what could have occurred following the big bang, the micro particles were created, and from there the likely scenario of galaxies made of stars and planets was destined to occur, and from there these macro objects keep each other stabley in check. So once they are all stable, the universe is like a predestined run away train, which nothing can stop, so in that way galaxies are destined to continue to exist and swirl and create. I think where predestination is eliminated is life. Where the macro meets the micro in the middle, at a singularity of life, which can exert its will over the macro and micro and itself. Your parents werent determined to meet, and when they did, they werent determined to have you. Your lunch today wasnt predetermined by the universe, or the clothes you wear, or your attitude, or the things you say and do.