Why do people still believe that UFO's are alien?

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by K-PAX-PROT

I would go along with the investigations carried out by Dr James E McDonald and his conclusions, as yet there has been no proof that ET intelligences do NOT exist and poses the technology so advanced it is very hard to perceive it at our present scientific understandings.The ET hypothesis is a valid and credible one until proven other wise.

How does one show proof of something that doesn't exists? I believe that is an logical fallacy...

I say that 600 pounds purple flying hippos exists and they do until you can prove that they don't... hehe

No ,how do those who claim that something does not exits because there is no proof prove that it does not exist.

The ET hypothesis is valid because well all perceive it is very possible that ET intelligences exist , now those that refute any thing that falls into a credible possibility must by their refuting prove that a possibility is redundant.

There are more stars,(suns), in this universe than there are grains of sands on the earth, now by that monumental thesis alone where is the evidence that ET intelligence is not POSSIBLE , now how can you by any scientific reasoning try and equate your "600 pounds purple flying hippos" with a credible possibility over a non credible one.It is very,very important to see what credible data is showing us and not what we want or choose to see,he,he.

reply to post by K-PAX-PROT


The one thing I struggle with is how do you put a value on an unknown when you don't really know if that value exists or is possible. So we have X that represents our unknown sighting. We have a whole list of things that are known that have at one time or another been shown to equal X. We do not know if ET exists or not. How can we put any value on X being something unknown?

For instance I have 52 playing cards, I can only figure out the odds of any the cards being a certain value because I know what values exist. If you take away that I know what cards are in the deck, I can't do any math and have no idea what any card would be. I guess it's possible that one of the cards is an alien card, but i cant do any math. We are stuck with what we know about. We can only imagine that one is an alien card.

Originally posted by K-PAX-PROT
No ,how do those who claim that something does not exits because there is no proof prove that it does not exist.

The claim is that there are aliens among us, so the proof rests there to be presented.

The ET hypothesis is valid because well all perceive it is very possible that ET intelligences exist , now those that refute any thing that falls into a credible possibility must by their refuting prove that a possibility is redundant.

"very possible that ET intelligences exist" why is it very possible? Is it because we are here as proof of intelligence?

To say that life is thoughout the universe is a good statement, but when you start to add discriminators such as intelligent space faring life it is not the same thing as suggesting life in general. Looking at earth we know that life in general is a hard thing to stop but a species is a hard thing to keep alive and even harder to keep the same. Humans, if we do not go extinct will not be humans in 2 million years but another species or branches of different species

Another thing to think about is there are billions of dead ends in evolution. Life continually evolves undesirable traits that leads to extinction. Survival of the fittest comes to mind, so who is to say that super intelligence is not a undesirable trait? It could be that we are doomed due to the very nature of our intelligence.

There are more stars,(suns), in this universe than there are grains of sands on the earth, now by that monumental thesis alone where is the evidence that ET intelligence is not POSSIBLE , now how can you by any scientific reasoning try and equate your "600 pounds purple flying hippos" with a credible possibility over a non credible one.It is very,very important to see what credible data is showing us and not what we want or choose to see,he,he.

I did not say ET was not possible, I said we have basically no further proof but the "witness" over the last 6000 years of ET existence. This means we have no new data...nothing....the only difference between my 600 pound purple flying hippo and aliens is we do not have a "witness" saying they saw one fly nor do we have a blurry image of a purple blob flying.

You guys love to throw the unlimited universe = all possibilities as proof, but it seems you all don't also see the unlimited distances too as a barrier.

There are two parts to this, one part is, are there intelligent aliens that can travel in space and the other is are they here. Both are very different animals that harbor massive road blocks to suggest either.

There are limits here and one of them is time. With life in general not capable until around 8 or 9 billion years ago that puts a limit on it. When we look at earth that is half that age and after 4.5 billion years and trillions of life forms it makes one that was able to go to its moon is not looking good for the home team that thinks it is a Star Trek utopia out there.

There are many things that makes earth special and each one of them drastically reduces the number of planets to create advance life forms, much less space faring life.

Just a simple fact that Jupiter is a giant vacuum cleaner that allows evolution on earth to actually have a chance to evolve into advance life is just one of many needed parts to help life evolve. Without Jupiter we would have life resets often and not the 70 million years apart as we do now. This allows for us to evolve, but the next reset...soon-ish....will do us in and allow something else to evolve.

As I said life goes on but species don't....

reply to post by peashooter

First 2 looks nothing like the Colares incident, if you think they all look similar I hope no one goes to you for medical advice. Kind of amusing how you're matching symptoms by descriptive words, but not using images.

Are you in denial?

There is ONE black and white image. ONE.

So we should throw out all the descriptive words and use your one black and white photo?

I think there is a total lack of anything resembling logic coming from your posts.

Can't you come up with anything better?

Lets recap.

There is a phenomenon that is known to exist where whole towns go into hallucinogenic hysteria. The phenomenon is known for its most prominent symptom being blistering soars resembling burns that turn black. Other symptoms include nausea, convulsions, burning sensations and fatigue.

All of them had suffered lesions to the face or the thoracic area. [The lesions]… began with intense reddening of the skin in the affected area. Later the hair would fall out and the skin would turn black. There was no pain, only a slight warmth.

Also known as ‘sacred fire’ and ‘invisible fire,’ St Anthony’s Fire is a medieval disease that was given it’s name from one of the key symptoms. In some iterations of the disease the sufferer’s skin blisters and turns black, as if burned by fire, but with no associated pain.

These two sentences are IDENTICAL. Why don't you go and find other ways your skin will blister and turn black with no pain? How about add the other symptoms? How many different ways do you think that happens? And with hallucinations to boot and some vomiting. It has to be aliens and not an actual known phenomenon?

And here is your prime evidence that two statements above should be rejected


Are you for real?

Um. I think this is a pretty darn good match for Colraes. You have to be in complete state of denial if you disagree with this point. You pull up one black and white photo of a supposed puncture wound from an alien orb and reject all the other ways where there is a match? Thats your evidence? is this a joke? I can only say that you are in complete denial or just trolling.

Found a match.


its herpes

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


Herpes Zoster (shingles) certainly causes pain, in contrast to the medieval disease discussed.

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


What's your point, that the military (who aren't from the town) also suffered the same illness as the rest of the villages? Everyone was eating rye? They captured footage of the lights... how is that possible with hallucinations?

Here I'll list my point:

Your suggestion (assumption) : whole village sick with St. Anthony's fire

Why it doesn't make sense:
1. everyone hallucinates the same thing, lights in the sky. Hallucinations are specific to the individual, right?
2. military also hallucinating, but captured the hallucination on camera. (the lights)
3. doctors have no clue what's causing the symptoms, not even a guess.
4. you forgot that only 35 people had these symptoms, the rest of the village also saw the lights (assuming your argument how does that make sense? if they didn't get St. Anthony's Fire they wouldn't hallucinate right?)

Yep, that's my lack of logic for you.


Your only argument about St. Anthony's fire being painless contradicts the entire case of Colares.

Yes, let's recap because you simply did not read this: (way to pick what you want to read )

These 2 sentences are identical? Nope, they aren't

Anyone struck by the beam would relate an extreme burning sensation and feel weak and lethargic. Many simply fainted.

Also known as ‘sacred fire’ and ‘invisible fire,’ St Anthony’s Fire is a medieval disease that was given it’s name from one of the key symptoms. In some iterations of the disease the sufferer’s skin blisters and turns black, as if burned by fire, but with no associated pain.

"Extreme burning sensation" does not mean painless, nice try again.

If you're suggesting a possibility for other cases, yes we get your point, but you keep pinning random illnesses on this case when it's clearly not related. Please tell me your point in one sentence.

It is very clear who is in denial here I rest my case.

Originally posted by peashooter
reply to post by ZetaRediculian

 

What's your point, that the military (who aren't from the town) also suffered the same illness as the rest of the villages? Everyone was eating rye? They captured footage of the lights... how is that possible with hallucinations?

Straw man. I haven't said anything like that.

Here I'll list my point:

Your suggestion (assumption) : whole village sick with St. Anthony's fire

Why it doesn't make sense:
1. everyone hallucinates the same thing, lights in the sky. Hallucinations are specific to the individual, right?
2. military also hallucinating, but captured the hallucination on camera. (the lights)
3. doctors have no clue what's causing the symptoms, not even a guess.
4. you forgot that only 35 people had these symptoms, the rest of the village also saw the lights (assuming your argument how does that make sense? if they didn't get St. Anthony's Fire they wouldn't hallucinate right?)

Yep, that's my lack of logic for you.

Your whole argument is a straw man. It's actually getting pretty boring.

I'm only interested in the actual medical symptoms right now which seem to be a match. If it can be proven that this is a likely cause, then we can move on to your retarded argumentation.

The photos debunk themselves.

If it can be shown that ergotism was at play it still doesn't rule out the rest of what happened. It helps explain a good portion though. One step at a time.

The cause of Saint Anthony's Fire being due to ergot wasn't described until 1976. It's not a stretch to believe Doctors in that part of the world missed this in 1977. Doctors missed diagnosing my son with lymes disease 10 years ago in the US. Luckily I had the Internet and insisted on him being tested.

Your only argument about St. Anthony's fire being painless contradicts the entire case of Colares.

Yes, let's recap because you simply did not read this: (way to pick what you want to read )

These 2 sentences are identical? Nope, they aren't

Anyone struck by the beam would relate an extreme burning sensation and feel weak and lethargic. Many simply fainted.

Also known as ‘sacred fire’ and ‘invisible fire,’ St Anthony’s Fire is a medieval disease that was given it’s name from one of the key symptoms. In some iterations of the disease the sufferer’s skin blisters and turns black, as if burned by fire, but with no associated pain.

"Extreme burning sensation" does not mean painless, nice try again.

If you're suggesting a possibility for other cases, yes we get your point, but you keep pinning random illnesses on this case when it's clearly not related. Please tell me your point in one sentence.

It is very clear who is in denial here

I rest my case.

edit on 16-6-2013 by peashooter because: (no reason given)

You switched the quote. Tricky. But thanks for pointing out how similar they are.
Extreme burning sensations are common to both. Read it again. Same with weakness and lethargy.

because you simply did not read this: (way to pick what you want to read )

you are text book case on psychological projection.
From my first post about it.

The common name for ergotism is "St. Anthony's Fire",[10] in reference to monks who cared for victims as well as symptoms, such as severe burning sensations in the limbs

I'm actually wasting my time discussing this with you. You are jumping around the case putting words in my mouth. It's actucually quite intellectually maddening to discuss these things with someone who has no capacity to reason. You want aliens and not reality. I'm pointing out a very intriguing phenomenon that is a possible explanation. You want your aliens and I want actual science.

The way to rule this out is to show how its impossible to happen. Not by false logic. It would be extremely easy for someone who is familiar with this type of thing to identify this if we had access to actual records and not UFO reports. This is by no means a stretch.

How does it feel to have a hand in possibly debunking a top notch case?

reply to post by peashooter


It's getting to the point I can't tell the 2 apart. Since you like logic tricks, Here are some symptoms in no particular order.

Anyone struck by the beam would relate an extreme burning sensation and feel weak and lethargic. Many simply fainted

symptoms, such as severe burning sensations in the limbs

nausea, seizures, and unconsciousness

the sufferer’s skin blisters and turns black, as if burned by fire, but with no associated pain.

began with intense reddening of the skin in the affected area. Later the hair would fall out and the skin would turn black. There was no pain, only a slight warmth.

appear dazed, be unable to speak or have other forms of paralysis or tremors

Originally posted by mbkennel
reply to post by ZetaRediculian

 

Herpes Zoster (shingles) certainly causes pain, in contrast to the medieval disease discussed.

The common name for ergotism is "St. Anthony's Fire",[10] in reference to monks who cared for victims as well as symptoms, such as severe burning sensations in the limbs

The last documented case was in France in 1951. Ergot is still around. That this could happen in 1977 in an undeveloped part of the world is not a stretch. Aliens shooting light beams at people causing them to have the same symptoms as a known disease is a stretch.

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


Putting words in your mouth? How many times did I say "ET IS NOT CONFIRMED"

this is from you:

" You want aliens and not reality. I'm pointing out a very intriguing phenomenon that is a possible explanation. You want your aliens and I want actual science. "

I think throughout this thread I have said more than 5 times that ET is not confirmed, but sightings of the UFO phenomenon is. Take a deep breath and try to tell the difference.

If you can't read, that's a whole different story. To keep accusing people of claiming ET when clearly they didn't, THAT's putting words in people's mouths.

Find ANY post where I said "there is ET visiting" , ANY at all. Clueless. You seem to stand your ground on "suggesting" an explanation for this phenomenon.

How about taking it like it is, people couldn't identify the lights. We don't need Sherlock trying to come up with irrational explanations when it clearly doesn't work.

A weak suggestion is a weak suggestion, that one suggestion ignores the fact that military, doctors, and villagers all didn't know they were down with ONE illness. Come on. Straw man? Case of Ergotism documented in 1950? Colares is only 27 years later, and you completely assume doctors have no idea what Ergotism is, therefore could not come up with a guess for the illness?

1. When I bring up logical explanations on military seeing and documenting the sightings, where's your response to that?

2. How about the fact that everyone, including people who don't have skin symptoms, all hallucinating the SAME thing? Nope? No answer to that?

What's your medical explanation for the above 2 points, please answer in ONE line. (No, not 3 posts with no valid argument again, ONE post would suffice, thanks)

Oh wait I remember your logical argument: straw man... straw man.. (heard that many times)

Intellectually maddening? Throughout this thread all you have contributed is "dragons, straw man, a suggestion for Ergotism(for everyone involved, even the government)" Where is the intellect in this?

reply to post by peashooter

I said "there is ET visiting"

Wait, aren't you the one who said this was an alien attack? Nice try. Why don't you go read a book? Sorry aliens arent attacking people in brazil. thanks for the laugh. You want to keep talking about fantasy? Go ahead. If you can't deal with reality, then go do something else.

What are you talking about? The case is solved. Get over it.

Do you have any more fantasies you want me to figure out? Aliens

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


This is what I said a couple pages ago

"Yes, but it is confirmation of unidentified flying objects while ruling out the hallucination/natural phenomenon possibility.

Not ET, but UFO."


How can you read a book if you can't even read posts?

And where's your response for my questions? Well? Case solved? Not yet, not until you answer the 2 points.

A little bit upset that I shot down your assumption?

No skin symptoms = ergotism too right? Funny.

reply to post by peashooter


If you actually read what I posted, you might have a point. But I don't really know what you are saying. I would say you are just trolling now. Just let it go. This case is kind of silly and easily explained. Just read the links I posted and actually put some thought into it. It's not that hard.

reply to post by peashooter

Oh wait I remember your logical argument: straw man... straw man.. (heard that many times)

Your arguing a point I didn't make but saying i did. Do you understand?
Like this:

Intellectually maddening? Throughout this thread all you have contributed is "dragons, straw man, a suggestion for Ergotism(for everyone involved, even the government)" Where is the intellect in this

Straw man.

reply to post by peashooter

1. When I bring up logical explanations on military seeing and documenting the sightings, where's your response to that?

It doesn't matter. If people are sick, people are sick. I'm not really interested in that part of the case yet. You want to lump your alien sightings all Into one thing. If you would actually read what I posted, you would see I already said I don't know. We are talking about 2 separate things here. If people have the flu does that relate to what the military are seeing? That's the problem with delusions.

2. How about the fact that everyone, including people who don't have skin symptoms, all hallucinating the SAME thing? Nope? No answer to that?

You are demanding a one size fits all explanation. That's unreasonable and I never suggested that. That's in your head. That's the problem with delusions. I m only interested in the people who have symptoms that were int the hospital. People having others symptoms may not even be real. The case is poorly documented. Sorry.

What's your medical explanation for the above 2 points

I dont know. I'm not a doctor. I'm a hallucinologist.

,please answer in ONE line. (not 3 posts with no valid argument again, ONE post would suffice, thanks)

You should have put this at the beginning silly.

reply to post by peashooter

Originally posted by Jefferton
First serious post.

So many people believe this to be true. They can't understand why others don't believe.

Is there even on scrap of evidence to prove it? I wanted to believe for so long. But over the years the fakes have killed my belief. How do you still believe??

edit on 10-6-2013 by Jefferton because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-6-2013 by Jefferton because: (no reason given)

Somebody somewhere does not want you to know the truth.
Do you believe that?
Then we can talk.

The whole slant of the internet and media and science is diverted away from
the super ships that are not talked about. We learn about jets and nuclear fission
and how light bulbs work and that is about it for Joe public to know in case of
UFO and Alien wonder. You can try and try but real evidence will disappear.


See Walter Haut, in the initial Roswell Hoax.

the same woman who stole two photographs (one showing three rhesus monkies in G-suits, and the other showing a rather corny and poorly fabricated fake “flying saucer”, in a hanger) which had been sent out to area newspapers by the Army Air Force Intelligence P.I.O., Walter Haut, in the initial Roswell Hoax.

Evidence to prove them wrong will be taken.
UFO photo and video images will be disputed without knowledge of air illuminations.
Even the stalwarts of science such as Maxwell promoted a light wave solution
contrary to processes in a populated medium of air particles and finer particles.
Why is all this going on, to please aliens or people mostly based on keeping some
powerful knowledge unknown to keep the status quo.

Originally posted by doobydoll

Originally posted by Jefferton
First serious post.

So many people believe this to be true. They can't understand why others don't believe.

Is there even on scrap of evidence to prove it? I wanted to believe for so long. But over the years the fakes have killed my belief. How do you still believe??

I believe UFO's are alien because of the sharp, angular turns they do whilst at ridiculous speeds.

A human being would just be a red, bloody smear on the craft's walls doing those kinds of manouvers, surely?

What would happen if you suspended the human in a jelly or liquid?

Same results?

- Watcher