Why do people still believe that UFO's are alien?

reply to post by peashooter


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Doctor Wellaide Cecim Carvalho was the local physician and it fell to her to treat the victims of these encounters. She took blood samples, and concluded that the victims suffered from generalized hyperthermia, superficial chronic headache, burnings, intense heat, nausea, tremors in the body, giddiness, asthenia and presented very small punctures in the skin where they were hit by the beams. These symptoms are regularly seen in patients undergoing chemotherapy when their blood becomes weakened by the radiation. Dr Carvalho wrote…

These sound like the symptoms of ergotism.

Convulsive symptoms include painful seizures and spasms, diarrhea, paresthesias, itching, mental effects including mania or psychosis, headaches, nausea and vomiting. Usually the gastrointestinal effects precede central nervous system effects.

The common name for ergotism is "St. Anthony's Fire",[10] in reference to monks who cared for victims as well as symptoms, such as severe burning sensations in the limbs.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by peashooter

The colonel who retired made an interview describing everything he saw 20 years later, 2 months after that interview he strangled himself in his own home. Yeah, definitely no hallucinations, that was my point.

20 years is a lot of time to recall something accurately. There is a correlation between time and memory recall.
How do you strangle yourself? Does that sound sane?
Here is a good article about memory

www.nybooks.com...

Answer this question: (after you do research into Colares) Do you believe this specific case in Colares is a mass scale hallucination?

Even more so. Thanks for the challenge.

If after doing research and you still reply yes, then I have no comments for you.

That's a shame since we could both learn about some things. Did you know that cases like Colares have been happening throughout history but instead of UFOs shooting beams, there were dragons shooting fire.

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


Did you just google the symptoms and find out which matched?

Ergotism is caused by poisoning, it's easy to list the symptoms which sound similar but you forgot the puncture wounds. Hair never grows back in the area where the burn/punctures were found. Wait, why did you leave out the part about radiation when you quoted it? Symptoms regularly seen in patients undergoing chemotherapy where blood is weakened by radiation?

Doesn't sound like a symptom for ergotism, nice try though.

As Mayor Soeiro stood in the streets watching with his wife, his mother, his grandmother, his twelve-year-old son, a city councilman and other townspeople, another object rose into the sky from the Colares area fifteen miles to the southwest and moved toward Vigia.

Then it disappeared and yet another one arose from a closer Island and moved toward Vigia at the same time that a third object headed for Vigia, almost causing a collision between the two.

The entire spectacle in the sky lasted about fifteen minutes, after which the lights of the city came back on again.

The newspaper also reported that in Santo Antônio do Ubintuba, Police Commissioner Benjamin Amim said that the following evening six unidentified flying objects were seen over the village emitting rays of green, red and yellow lights.

Many had hurt themselves when trying to escape one of the strange objects. In many cases, the marks left by the rays on the victims skin were marks that could have up to eight small holes. In these occurrences, the Chupa-Chupa term was proven right as many of them had lost up to approximately 300 ml of blood, from these wounds.

Do you lose blood from ergotism? Quick! Add that symptom to your google search.


By the way here is a picture of what ergotism looks like:


Very easy to tell these are not localized burns, but over large areas of the skin.
Compared with burns from Colares:



Next time make sure you know what ergotism on the skin looks like before you diagnose 35 people with it.

But of course the military is also having ergotism as well, all diagnosed by someone sitting at home. Impressive.

This release detailed the research undertaken by the military in Colares in 1977. According to the documents, in 1977 the military took photographs of UFOs, interviewed UFO witnesses, and themselves witnessed UFO sightings, making drawings of UFOs and their trajectories.

The Brazilian Government has been open about UFO's and released documents.

www.cohenufo.org...


PS: dragons? thanks for the good laugh, next time an entire village/military witnesses a dragon, and people get sent in for dragon burns, please let us know.

Originally posted by peashooter
reply to post by ZetaRediculian

 

Did you just google the symptoms and find out which matched?

no. I googled different ways to hallucinate. Ergotism is something i have been aware of for some time. I was suprised how well the symptoms did match. it seems like a good match because of the symptoms that were described. L S D is derived from ergot.

Ergotism is a well known phenomenon that has occurred throughout history. Typical stories are that whole towns were affected with ergot poisoning from grains. Symptoms included hallucinations and just general hysteria.

I thought something like this could be the case here but then stumbled on the symptoms. So there are a number of similarities.

Ergotism is caused by poisoning, it's easy to list the symptoms which sound similar but you forgot the puncture wounds. Hair never grows back in the area where the burn/punctures were found.
G
Doesn't sound like a symptom for ergotism, nice try though.

No. That sounds like something else probably unrelated if it's true.

As Mayor Soeiro stood in the streets watching with his wife, his mother, his grandmother, his twelve-year-old son, a city councilman and other townspeople, another object rose into the sky from the Colares area fifteen miles to the southwest and moved toward Vigia.

Then it disappeared and yet another one arose from a closer Island and moved toward Vigia at the same time that a third object headed for Vigia, almost causing a collision between the two.

The entire spectacle in the sky lasted about fifteen minutes, after which the lights of the city came back on again.

The newspaper also reported that in Santo Antônio do Ubintuba, Police Commissioner Benjamin Amim said that the following evening six unidentified flying objects were seen over the village emitting rays of green, red and yellow lights.

Many had hurt themselves when trying to escape one of the strange objects. In many cases, the marks left by the rays on the victims skin were marks that could have up to eight small holes. In these occurrences, the Chupa-Chupa term was proven right as many of them had lost up to approximately 300 ml of blood, from these wounds.

Do you have copies of the medical records? This may be unrelated, misinterpreted or made up. How can you tell?

Do you lose blood from ergotism? Quick! Add that symptom to your google search.

Straw man
No idea and doesn't matter. The list of symptoms allegedly listed by the supposed doctor does match pretty well.

By the way here is a picture of what ergotism looks like:


Very easy to tell these are not localized burns, but over large areas of the skin.
Compared with burns from Colares:

The black and white photo of the UFO puncture mark looks more like a rash. I have one now. Do you want to see a granny black and white photo of it? Could be from a UFO I guess.

From my 15 minute google search at home, I learned that ergotism takes on 2 forms. The first being like the symptoms described above like nausea, twitching, fatigue and hallucination. Same as described almost word for word by the doctor.

The other form manifests in skin problems which I did not bring up. You did however.

Next time make sure you know what ergotism on the skin looks like before you diagnose 35 people with it.

Straw man.
I didn't diagnose anybody with anything. I pointed out that the symptoms look very similar.
The skin symptoms are from a different form of ergotism and not the one I think matches. You are the one bringing up something unrelated to disprove something. Tricky.

But of course the military is also having ergotism as well, all diagnosed by someone sitting at home.

Impressive.

I call straw man! Nope, never said anything like that. Let's actually discuss what I actually said first.
Otherwise, I will point out your straw man argument every time and that wont go too well for you. Yes, I was home in bed on my iPad. Are you at the official world UFO research HQ conducting top notch research?

This release detailed the research undertaken by the military in Colares in 1977. According to the documents, in 1977 the military took photographs of UFOs, interviewed UFO witnesses, and themselves witnessed UFO sightings, making drawings of UFOs and their trajectories.

PS: dragons?

thanks for the good laugh, next time an entire village/military witnesses a dragon, and people get sent in for dragon burns, please let us know.

edit on 14-6-2013 by peashooter because: (no reason given)

Not sure how acting ignorant helps your case. You do seem angry at the suggestion that the symptoms match. You don't really have a case that they don't. Your straw man argumentation is pretty blatant. Its a common tactic by certain types around here. I have learned to live with it.

Maybe they are, maybe they're not. Some people think that UFO's might be secret government craft of some kind that they are not revealing.But the extraterrestrials possibility is always there.

Top Ten reasons why Aliens are not coming here:

10. We are a biological infestation and they would not come here "in person" because of cross-contamination.
09. There is no evidence of Alien habitation on any of the other planets in the Solar System.
08. There's no reason for them to use stealth, or hide. Note we didn't use stealthy Mars landers.
07. They don't need anything we have. They can use terraforming, biological and chemical build engines to produce any molecule or bio-system they want if they are advanced enough to come here.
06. They would be unlikely to need or want to fly around in atmospheric craft, risking lightning strikes. Just as we wouldn't go back in time and use wooden sailing ships of advanced design to investigate our ancestors.
05. They could easily visit us virtually. In the same sense, there are too many sightings and 'abductions'. They are on the scale of psychological disturbances not on the scale of an actual event in number.
04. If they did use atmospheric crafts, they could design them to look like clouds.
03. It's too expensive to visit remote planetary systems in person - they'd use nano-technology.
02. It would be very low down on the list of things to do. They'd be concerned about planetary extinction events and creating backup worlds in their own system first.
01. It's unlikely that we could time synch with them. By the time they get here we might have gone extinct.
00. Space is about the best possible quarantine possible. Radiation, cold, near-vacuum, vast distances, travel time. Though it's not impossible to have alien visitation in person, it's an extremely low possibility event.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by peashooter

 

One interesting case involved a US pilot ordered to fire 24 missiles at an UFO which showed up on radar to be the size of a bomber.

Rockets. Not missiles.

The Torres case actually sounds like a perfect example of radar spoofing. That's one of the problems with radar, it can be tricked both intentionally and by nature.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

edit on 6/10/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Really?? so Torres was seeing spoofing and was ORDERED to fire on it from his superiors , does not say a lot for those responsible for the defence of their respective air space, find it hard to believe that if this "spoofing" is a common occurrence as you are suggesting then WHY is there not more of these cases of "spoofing" more common place ?? would we not have been experiencing more scrambled fighter jets sent up to not only engage the "spoofing" but "OPEN FIRE " on it?.

Experienced military radar operators and their superiors being fooled by nothing more than radar spoofing, i take it the pilots testimony of what he was witnessing is redundant and not to be consider valid by those who are neither military pilots or have ever seen inside the cockpit of a fighter jet never mind fly one. I do find it hard that those with no real military flight experience or training trying to give the impressing that its them who are more qualified to give the explanations over those who ARE in a much more experienced and qualified position.

If we are to listen to those who are not witness , are not trained or experienced over those who are and who at the same time reject the rebuttals or explanations of those who are in no real credible position to refute them then where does that leave credibility ,where does that in fact leave the respect and TRUST we all have in those trained and qualified to be able to be in those positions to defend the air spaces of their nations

. There is a matter of trust that cannot be over looked or dismissed from those who have spent years training to be able to be in that position of defending our airspaces but in reality i go for those trained and qualified enough to be able to differentiate between a "spoof" and a object. Does "spoofing" have the capacity to make redundant an fighter jets weapons system??

reply to post by K-PAX-PROT


I think phage's post seems reasonable. Just curious why people get so worked up when alternative explainations are offered?

Originally posted by corsair00


Okay... the notion of an alien is what Swiss psychologist called an "archetype". This is more like a visual metaphor from the imagination that has been created by the modern world - the aliens. In old days they said elves or fairies - and in fact, still many cultures worldwide would say a spirit being.

Which is what I want to suggest. The possibility that the phenomenon itself is spiritual - not in the biblical sense of angels and demons, but of disincarnate intelligences. A type of lifeform in another dimension, something that often times cannot even be seen by the human eye - beyond the spectrum of light i.e. ultraviolet. Shamans worldwide claim to interact with spiritual beings, but only when they are in an altered state of consciousness, like in a dream. Aliens do not have to be physical creatures in nuts and bolts metal ships. They can be fields of energy or beings that exist almost as enigmatically as photons or something of that sort.

The obsessive desire to lump everything into either black or white categories of thought is called a "thinking error" in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. It's either us or it is aliens. Well, no wonder you have "lost your faith" - you have such a narrow view of reality in the first place.

Thinking that they are aliens and demanding government to disclose this truth is totally missing the point...

I have thought before that many UFO's could be extra-dimensional - to us they would be perceived as spirits. Keep in mind most UFO's sighted are just lights that can appear and disappear in a flash...

I also would like to present my own hypothesis on aliens and their origins. It is a combination of "religion", "science" and common sense but is just a concept that I finally felt like logically extrapolating on and putting into words.

I will start off by mentioning that quantum physics came up with the concept that their are more than 4 dimensions, and each dimension above is all the lower dimensions combined into one particle of the above dimension. This means if the 4th dimension is time then the 5th dimension is the entire perceivable universe from its' conception to its' end is a single point; one inconceivably small point of the 6th dimension. Call the entire universe a sub-particle of a sub-particle in the 6th dimension which is its' own universe made out of a conglomeration of a near infinite number of universes which compose the particles of said dimension.

- If this concept is correct then it would not be ludicrous to assume that religion is also correct in stating that god - an extra-dimensional being - made the universe - and at the moment that this universe was completed in full he could have personally made a physical man embodying himself to dwell in this universe and enjoy it. Or tied up the new universe with a microcosm of itself which would be the first alien - the first man to explore his macrocosm - himself. So "God" made the "universe" which was conscious and consciously created a microcosm of itself in time which became the first man - a concept encompassed in the Torah as "Adam". Or even that this creator of the universe himself made a microcosm of himself, a sort of foundation of the universe to enjoy his own creation as well. Or this creator did both and "hung out" with his new creation the first man in his creation this physical universe. Then this first man had offspring and created the first race of immortal aliens - a species of aliens as old as the universe itself. That would mean there would have been an alien species billions of years old being taught by an extra-dimensional being older than the universe itself which is part of a extra-dimensional species which dwells in a dimension that this entire universe only composes one particle in.

Then that alien species ended up exploring its' way to earth (or creating it in some enormous technologically assisted accomplishment) and here we are today, a species which dies and reincarnates because of the firstly created species' disobedience to God, a story illustrated through Genesis which either symbolizes something incomprehensible or is actually a direct representation of what actually happened.

This is MY "matrix" hypothesis, there are other similar ones with fundamental differences but the core of the hypothesis is the same as many. The "matrix" concept what I would consider the most occult of the occult and the root of all religions.

But of course this is only a very rough and incomplete hypothesis I came up sort of on the spot with that I wanted to share with someone. Hope someone gets a kick out of this.

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
reply to post by K-PAX-PROT

 

I think phage's post seems reasonable. Just curious why people get so worked up when alternative explainations are offered?

But is it credible, is it in any way justified to have it over those who are credible, and who where actually involved in that case over those who where not and hold no real credibility of those involved or who investigated it,who decides who is credible and who is not, why do people get worked up by authentic,credible UFO reports from credible witnesses sources, maybe we have the wrong people as fighter pilots and in positions of authority that are charged with the defence of air space and who decide to send up fighter jets to engage radar spoofs??

The "reasonable" perception is that credibility and those who poses it comes first before those who lack it,(no disrespect intended to you or phage). In this case and cases like it those in credible positions who where involved or witnessed it should be respected and listened to , it is very important to see what the data of a report is telling or showing us from credible positions and not what we want to see.

reply to post by Maverick7


I found this comical.

Not bad.

Originally posted by On7a7higher7plane
reply to post by Maverick7

 

I found this comical.

Not bad.

If aliens were here, we'd know it.

It would be blatantly obvious.

Originally posted by K-PAX-PROT

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
reply to post by K-PAX-PROT

 

I think phage's post seems reasonable. Just curious why people get so worked up when alternative explainations are offered?

But is it credible, is it in any way justified to have it over those who are credible, and who where actually involved in that case over those who where not and hold no real credibility of those involved or who investigated it,who decides who is credible and who is not, why do people get worked up by authentic,credible UFO reports from credible witnesses sources, maybe we have the wrong people as fighter pilots and in positions of authority that are charged with the defence of air space and who decide to send up fighter jets to engage radar spoofs??

It's not uncommon for people to get fooled or simply misidentify something. There are certainly cases where things were misidentified by pilots. Do we ignore those? I don't ignore all the times that pilots correctly confirm alien crafts.

The "reasonable" perception is that credibility and those who poses it comes first before those who lack it,(no disrespect intended to you or phage). In this case and cases like it those in credible positions who where involved or witnessed it should be respected and listened to , it is very important to see what the data of a report is telling or showing us from credible positions and not what we want to see.

so should we disregard all information regarding perception and not question people of authority? What data am I allowed to look at? The data that only presented by UFO researchers, UFO documentaries and UFO web sites? I guess I'm not allowed to discuss the book on hallucinations I just bought and see how the information there applies. So I suppose we can only look at these things one way without question. That sucks.

There is no factual information stating that pilots are somehow immune from perceptual errors. None. They are not super humans trained to not hallucinate like common folk.

By no means am I an authority on anything here. People can look up whatever they want.

reply to post by Maverick7


What is the actual definition of alien ? Again the first recorded extraterrestrial or UFO was documented in the Bible . This was 2nd Kings chapter 2 verse 11 . God is as alien to most people as anything that could come from deep space . But there is a lot more evidence of God than space travelers . Could be one in the same ! How would that impact the world ?

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian

Originally posted by K-PAX-PROT

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
reply to post by K-PAX-PROT

 

I think phage's post seems reasonable. Just curious why people get so worked up when alternative explainations are offered?

But is it credible, is it in any way justified to have it over those who are credible, and who where actually involved in that case over those who where not and hold no real credibility of those involved or who investigated it,who decides who is credible and who is not, why do people get worked up by authentic,credible UFO reports from credible witnesses sources, maybe we have the wrong people as fighter pilots and in positions of authority that are charged with the defence of air space and who decide to send up fighter jets to engage radar spoofs??

It's not uncommon for people to get fooled or simply misidentify something. There are certainly cases where things were misidentified by pilots. Do we ignore those? I don't ignore all the times that pilots correctly confirm alien crafts.

The "reasonable" perception is that credibility and those who poses it comes first before those who lack it,(no disrespect intended to you or phage). In this case and cases like it those in credible positions who where involved or witnessed it should be respected and listened to , it is very important to see what the data of a report is telling or showing us from credible positions and not what we want to see.

so should we disregard all information regarding perception and not question people of authority? What data am I allowed to look at? The data that only presented by UFO researchers, UFO documentaries and UFO web sites? I guess I'm not allowed to discuss the book on hallucinations I just bought and see how the information there applies. So I suppose we can only look at these things one way without question. That sucks.

There is no factual information stating that pilots are somehow immune from perceptual errors. None. They are not super humans trained to not hallucinate like common folk.

By no means am I an authority on anything here. People can look up whatever they want.

edit on 14-6-2013 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)

Your above points are cleverly put but who is in any real credible position to judge if experienced military pilots are hallucinating , i just find it terribly naive and somewhat arrogant that those who are not in any position of credibility or experience or have not experienced what some military pilots have witnessed but still feel that they are not only better qualified but are in any credible position to refute or reject.

Is it not the case that those in these positions of credibility thought it wise to scramble fighter jets to intercept unknowns in their air space and done so out of real concerns, is it really justifiable to put it all down to hallucinations, if so then we have or had some very unstable military pilots trusted with the defence of a nations air space and what of their superiors

.There are cases where these unknowns have played cat and mouse games with fighter jets sent up to engage them, are we to accept that hallucinations are capable of this. What of those pilots that are staid fast in their refuting of claims that they where hallucinating ,are we to side with non credible sources citing hallucinations or misidentification's, these pilots deserve respect and the benefit of the doubt not lambasting from non credible sources. What if they are right in what they are describing , where does that leave us.

Originally posted by Jefferton
First serious post.

So many people believe this to be true. They can't understand why others don't believe.

Is there even on scrap of evidence to prove it? I wanted to believe for so long. But over the years the fakes have killed my belief. How do you still believe??

edit on 10-6-2013 by Jefferton because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-6-2013 by Jefferton because: (no reason given)

for one..

this thread right here ATS Giant UFO's Scaling Project is one reason ...

people reporting the massive scale

reply to post by On7a7higher7plane


Thanks for your post, a lot of it makes a certain sort of sense.

I have always said that religion and science are all searching for and explaining the same thing and that there has to be something, an absolute power that is the creative essence of everything, that permeates all and to which all belongs, be that an energy or an absolute being, or creator is something that I guess people 'feel', it would be nice to 'know' for sure but I think that could be a constraint that human physicality cannot properly understand, which fits both physics and religious ideas of something which is absolute.

My opinion anyhow.

reply to post by K-PAX-PROT

Your above points are cleverly put but who is in any real credible position to judge if experienced military pilots are hallucinating ,

actually nobody can really determine if anyone was actually hallucinating. I agree with you but we do know that people do hallucinate among other things. This includes all people.

i just find it terribly naive and somewhat arrogant that those who are not in any position of credibility or experience or have not experienced what some military pilots have witnessed but still feel that they are not only better qualified but are in any credible position to refute or reject.

I would agree with that but is it OK if I do agree with expert opinions and people that meet your qualifications?

Is it not the case that those in these positions of credibility thought it wise to scramble fighter jets to intercept unknowns in their air space and done so out of real concerns, is it really justifiable to put it all down to hallucinations, if so then we have or had some very unstable military pilots trusted with the defence of a nations air space and what of their superiors

I don't agree with this point. It's not a question of stability. Obviously I use the word "hallucination" loosely. I don't think we are talking about pilot error really. If they are in defense of our country, they should scramble jets even if they are 99% sure it's nothing. How about a scenario where you think you hear someone in the middle of the night but you are 99% sure it's the wind? Do you let it go? Not me. So it sounded like footsteps but was the rocking chair. A misperception. Does it make you unstable because You "hallucinated" the sound of footsteps?

It's perfectly reasonable to scramble jets in cases like this. I can't imagine why they wouldn't.

.There are cases where these unknowns have played cat and mouse games with fighter jets sent up to engage them, are we to accept that hallucinations are capable of this.

Yes. Absolutely. Hallucinations are capable of doing just about anything. Who determined that anything was "playing" anything? Just like the rocking chair was "playing" games? That is a subjective description regardless who's giving the report even if its the best pilot in the world.

What of those pilots that are staid fast in their refuting of claims that they where hallucinating ,are we to side with non credible sources citing hallucinations or misidentification's, these pilots deserve respect and the benefit of the doubt not lambasting from non credible sources. What if they are right in what they are describing , where does that leave us.

It's really impossible to determine exactly what anyone witnesses or perceives but because humans do mispercieve it's always among the possibilities.

Where this leaves us is here. We do know that misperceptions do happen in a multitude of ways to all people. When an unknown is encountered and described by a pilot, what we have is their subjective human perception even if what they saw was an alien vehicle. Lets say an alien vehicle flys in looking like a morphing, ambigius blob of light for a few seconds, what information will human perception give us about that? It will most likely yield a subjective description.

What we don't have is any confirmed alien encounters. What we do have is a multitude of ways humans can perceive something that was not really what they thought it was.

Originally posted by peashooter
reply to post by ZetaRediculian

 

Did you just google the symptoms and find out which matched?

Ergotism is caused by poisoning, it's easy to list the symptoms which sound similar

All of them had suffered lesions to the face or the thoracic area. [The lesions]… began with intense reddening of the skin in the affected area. Later the hair would fall out and the skin would turn black. There was no pain, only a slight warmth.

Doctor Carvalho (ufocasebook)

St Anthony’s Fire
Also known as ‘sacred fire’ and ‘invisible fire,’ St Anthony’s Fire is a medieval disease that was given it’s name from one of the key symptoms. In some iterations of the disease the sufferer’s skin blisters and turns black, as if burned by fire, but with no associated pain.

Burning for St Anthony’s Fire

Now THAT is an uncanny resemblance. Comments please.

Wait, why did you leave out the part about radiation when you quoted it? Symptoms regularly seen in patients undergoing chemotherapy where blood is weakened by radiation?

Wait, why did you not see that I didn't leave that part out?

because we dont even know anything