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Do you mind if we might just hold that discussion until after our combat troops are HOME and not still dying in the field?
Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Bob Sholtz
You're confusing what he'd first done by leaking limited and very much (in my view) criminal activity, like gunning down the Reuters team and what he did next.
I'd call him a very different thing if he'd done like others and kept to what he KNEW the content of. He didn't though. He burned the whole house down with everyone still in it. So I call him a criminal.
Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
Do you mind if we might just hold that discussion until after our combat troops are HOME and not still dying in the field?
Please tell me when is that event due, so I can make a dot in my calendar.
Sometimes I wonder whether you are just naive or trolling.
Hmmm.....Let's say I start work for a company, sign a non-disclosure agreement...then I see something immoral/illegal done by a co-worker. Although the company usually allows such behavior, I publicly disclose it. Of course, what I do may risk some of my fellow colleagues' lives/livelihood and the company reputation is at stake. Would I be labelled a criminal ....by Wrabbit?
I wish I had not read this... thoughts like this make me lose faith in humanity.
Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Kurius
Hmmm.....Let's say I start work for a company, sign a non-disclosure agreement...then I see something immoral/illegal done by a co-worker. Although the company usually allows such behavior, I publicly disclose it. Of course, what I do may risk some of my fellow colleagues' lives/livelihood and the company reputation is at stake. Would I be labelled a criminal ....by Wrabbit?
I wish I had not read this... thoughts like this make me lose faith in humanity.
I'll pass over the personal jabs... That's cheesy. You raise a fair point though and a decent example. Monsanto or Dow Chemical would be examples where there is no shortage of things happening that would most likely be criminal under the eyes of a Court, not to mention the one of public opinion.
Now, if you expose the criminal activity? You're a whistle blower and, to some, a Hero. If you data dump the Human Resources department, employee database, projects for the last 30 years without seeing or caring what they are or who they touched? You're a douche, pardon my french. It's the difference between doing the right thing and just doing whatever feels right.
Children do what feels right because it feels good and damn who it may hurt. We forgive this in children because they're still learning. Adults do what feels good, but temper that with the potential trade off of harm and, we hope, find a final outcome that balances those two things.
Snowden was an adult. Manning was a child. Criminal isn't my opinion....but what Manning has ALREADY PLED GUILTY TO BY HIS OWN HAND AND WORD. What part of this guilty plea thing don't people grasp? He's on trial for ADDITIONAL charges. His criminal guilt isn't opinion, it's admitted FACT by his own words. :shk:
Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
However, we don't end that, in my opinion, by destroying the operational security of the men still in the field, still fighting and still dying. We don't end this by engineering the outright defeat of our own people. That isn't helpful, it's treason. No, check that. It's Treason with a capital T. That is where I part company HARD with the "The public has the right to know" crowd, regarding operational detail of military operations, wholesale, while said operations are still ongoing.
No. This is the sorry upside down state of affair we are currently in and which you are blindly defending. We certainly don't hear you fairly condemning the true criminals.
Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Kurius
No. This is the sorry upside down state of affair we are currently in and which you are blindly defending. We certainly don't hear you fairly condemning the true criminals.
That's flat out dishonest or simply lacking any time spent looking at the facts to what you're claiming there. I suggest you take just a moment to at least skim over a person's profile before making such broad statements about them. You'll prevent making yourself look bad by such easily shown misrepresentation of the people you're debating with. To specific example:
Britain admits to torture and pays for it.
Soldier pleads guilty in Afghan massacre, says ‘not a good reason in this world’ for slayings
Expanded US Combat Plans Across Africa??
U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances
British terror suspects quietly stripped of citizenship… then killed by drones
My post regarding the gun camera footage
With the sole exception of the last one? Those aren't threads I simply posted in. Those are threads I took the time and initiative to author myself. It's a sample and by no means every one where I have been critical of my 'own side' or the conduct of what you deem "The true criminals".
I bend over backward to take a fair and even approach to world events without delusions of U.S. moral superiority or the enemy all being ignorant oafs. Either extreme is, itself, ignorant. As I've argued before, myself.
So...while an apology for your statement would be a appropriate, I don't expect one. I do, however, request you take care in characterizing people you know little about. I have integrity. It means something to me and challenging that will bring a response in defense, as it has here.edit on 11-6-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: Minor correction in quote
Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Kurius
Some day, you will be a part of something, perhaps. Something larger than yourself and your own sense of priorities and what's important in life. You may experience the betrayal of someone turning on it for their own self interests and definitions of 'proper'. Some day, you'll understand by that, what this criminal did to the men serving in his unit, his Service and his nation. I'd never wish this on you or anyone else, but you may even come to be on the side the civilians named in his releases came to find themselves. Targets for killing, for having done what they believed was the right thing.
This boy had no right in this life or any other to judge the worthiness of those people to remain safe in theirs.
Snowden did this nation a favor, at least by what I've seen so far. Daniel Ellsberg did this nation a favor. Bradley Manning bought himself a good portion of his life in a military prison.
Now you have a tendency to make your points by running other people down. I can't respect it and I won't continue debating it. You have a good evening.
Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
Do you mind if we might just hold that discussion until after our combat troops are HOME and not still dying in the field?
Please tell me when is that event due, so I can make a dot in my calendar.
Sometimes I wonder whether you are just naive or trolling.
That curiosity is more than mutual, believe me, Mario.
I'll be very interested to know when that happens myself, as I've got blood family serving in this god forsaken war in that hell hole of a place. It's personal to me as much as another news story. So I'm real interested in seeing them home, myself. We were told 2014. We heard Joe Biden insist with FORCE of his words in the VP Debate that they WOULD be home in 2014. Period. End of Story. Oh.....errrr.....but for the 9 bases we're being allowed by Karzai. Except for the 10,000-15,000 being left behind for security and response forces for counter-terrorist activities. Err... Well, I guess 2014 really isn't the end after all.
I'll be as happy as anyone when they're all home and that day can't come a moment too soon for me. We're fighting a lost cause and a dead issue, literally after the Pakistan Raid, however we want to speculate on those details. It's over. It's time to end this.
However, we don't end that, in my opinion, by destroying the operational security of the men still in the field, still fighting and still dying. We don't end this by engineering the outright defeat of our own people. That isn't helpful, it's treason. No, check that. It's Treason with a capital T. That is where I part company HARD with the "The public has the right to know" crowd, regarding operational detail of military operations, wholesale, while said operations are still ongoing.
I hope that was clear enough to distinguish my position from that of a troll.
Originally posted by EViLKoNCEPTz
reply to post by MarioOnTheFly
LOL. Naive? Everyone's been up in arms that the FOBs lost their hot midrats from the draw down. If they were sending more troops over they wouldn't be closing bases and pulling support to begin the troop movements. They aren't gonna spend all their time and effort closing bases and turning others over to the Afghan forces to turn right back around and redeploy all the same stuff. If anyone's naive it's you of the logistics involved in a troop withdraw and a redeployment. If they were to withdraw just to redeploy it would be 2015 before they were fully operational again. It takes 12-18 months on either end, deploying or withdrawing. That's 2 to 3 years of wasted effort just to "fool" people into thinking they are withdrawing.edit on 6/11/2013 by EViLKoNCEPTz because: (no reason given)