Video: I AM BRADLEY MANNING

reply to post by GrantedBail


Agreed. It's a topic we both feel very strongly about, no doubt. It's great when two busy users like us can have a very energetic debate and part without anything but positive feelings and a smile.

I'll definitely catch ya on another thread!

You are right, people who know about war crimes or crimes against the state by politicians or corporations need to come forward. It is the right thing to do.

If it turns out that there was nothing going on, so be it, no big deal, or as with the massive surveillance operations in the U.S.,

allow the people to have the information they need to make an informed decision, the government serves them, after all, the people do not serve the government.

And the government does not serve corporations, either, a politician who works for corporate interests that are against the people in order to get a bit of money under the table is kind of committing treason.

In a surveillance state, after all, turnabout is fair play. We should be watching them.

reply to post by darkbake


For example, in the current surveillance state, I don't get a closed hearing or a time out from surveillance when I'm contemplating massive crimes (oh yeah right now I am contemplating cooking some soup and going to bed), so why should the government or corporations get closed hearings or closed discussions when they are contemplating massive crimes against the people of the U.S. or other nations?

Turnabout is fair play...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Do you mind if we might just hold that discussion until after our combat troops are HOME and not still dying in the field?

Please tell me when is that event due, so I can make a dot in my calendar.

Sometimes I wonder whether you are just naive or trolling.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


It's already begun. 30,000 troops will be home for the holidays next year.

reply to post by EViLKoNCEPTz


Don't be naive...some will come back...others will replace them...if not there...than in some other newly formed war in some other God forsaken place.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


LOL. Naive? Everyone's been up in arms that the FOBs lost their hot midrats from the draw down. If they were sending more troops over they wouldn't be closing bases and pulling support to begin the troop movements. They aren't gonna spend all their time and effort closing bases and turning others over to the Afghan forces to turn right back around and redeploy all the same stuff. If anyone's naive it's you of the logistics involved in a troop withdraw and a redeployment. If they were to withdraw just to redeploy it would be 2015 before they were fully operational again. It takes 12-18 months on either end, deploying or withdrawing. That's 2 to 3 years of wasted effort just to "fool" people into thinking they are withdrawing.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Bob Sholtz

 

You're confusing what he'd first done by leaking limited and very much (in my view) criminal activity, like gunning down the Reuters team and what he did next.

I'd call him a very different thing if he'd done like others and kept to what he KNEW the content of. He didn't though. He burned the whole house down with everyone still in it. So I call him a criminal.

Hmmm.....Let's say I start work for a company, sign a non-disclosure agreement...then I see something immoral/illegal done by a co-worker. Although the company usually allows such behavior, I publicly disclose it. Of course, what I do may risk some of my fellow colleagues' lives/livelihood and the company reputation is at stake. Would I be labelled a criminal ....by Wrabbit?
I wish I had not read this... thoughts like this make me lose faith in humanity.

But I am glad to know there are more enlightened souls here who are less short-sighted and not individualistic. Let's hope there are more people awaking from their slumbers. I see individuals who condemn whistleblowers fall under three categories:
1. those who have special personal interests in keeping status quo (maybe their livelihood or related loved ones depend on it)
2. they/loved ones have done/witnessed similar immoral things themselves in the past and now trying to justify having done it/kept quiet about it.
3. They have a conflicting, brainwashed sense of morality.

Indeed, we need more courageous people like Mannings and Snowden to come forth before we can see more improvements. What they have done is an immeasurable service to all that will inspire more to come...We may not see the results quickly, but perhaps in the next generation or two....hopefully sooner, though.

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Do you mind if we might just hold that discussion until after our combat troops are HOME and not still dying in the field?

Please tell me when is that event due, so I can make a dot in my calendar.

Sometimes I wonder whether you are just naive or trolling.

That curiosity is more than mutual, believe me, Mario.

I'll be very interested to know when that happens myself, as I've got blood family serving in this god forsaken war in that hell hole of a place. It's personal to me as much as another news story. So I'm real interested in seeing them home, myself. We were told 2014. We heard Joe Biden insist with FORCE of his words in the VP Debate that they WOULD be home in 2014. Period. End of Story. Oh.....errrr.....but for the 9 bases we're being allowed by Karzai. Except for the 10,000-15,000 being left behind for security and response forces for counter-terrorist activities. Err... Well, I guess 2014 really isn't the end after all.

I'll be as happy as anyone when they're all home and that day can't come a moment too soon for me. We're fighting a lost cause and a dead issue, literally after the Pakistan Raid, however we want to speculate on those details. It's over. It's time to end this.

However, we don't end that, in my opinion, by destroying the operational security of the men still in the field, still fighting and still dying. We don't end this by engineering the outright defeat of our own people. That isn't helpful, it's treason. No, check that. It's Treason with a capital T. That is where I part company HARD with the "The public has the right to know" crowd, regarding operational detail of military operations, wholesale, while said operations are still ongoing.

I hope that was clear enough to distinguish my position from that of a troll.

reply to post by Kurius

Hmmm.....Let's say I start work for a company, sign a non-disclosure agreement...then I see something immoral/illegal done by a co-worker. Although the company usually allows such behavior, I publicly disclose it. Of course, what I do may risk some of my fellow colleagues' lives/livelihood and the company reputation is at stake. Would I be labelled a criminal ....by Wrabbit?
I wish I had not read this... thoughts like this make me lose faith in humanity.

I'll pass over the personal jabs... That's cheesy. You raise a fair point though and a decent example. Monsanto or Dow Chemical would be examples where there is no shortage of things happening that would most likely be criminal under the eyes of a Court, not to mention the one of public opinion.

Now, if you expose the criminal activity? You're a whistle blower and, to some, a Hero. If you data dump the Human Resources department, employee database, projects for the last 30 years without seeing or caring what they are or who they touched? You're a douche, pardon my french. It's the difference between doing the right thing and just doing whatever feels right.

Children do what feels right because it feels good and damn who it may hurt. We forgive this in children because they're still learning. Adults do what feels good, but temper that with the potential trade off of harm and, we hope, find a final outcome that balances those two things.

Snowden was an adult. Manning was a child. Criminal isn't my opinion....but what Manning has ALREADY PLED GUILTY TO BY HIS OWN HAND AND WORD. What part of this guilty plea thing don't people grasp? He's on trial for ADDITIONAL charges. His criminal guilt isn't opinion, it's admitted FACT by his own words. :shk:

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Kurius

 

Hmmm.....Let's say I start work for a company, sign a non-disclosure agreement...then I see something immoral/illegal done by a co-worker. Although the company usually allows such behavior, I publicly disclose it. Of course, what I do may risk some of my fellow colleagues' lives/livelihood and the company reputation is at stake. Would I be labelled a criminal ....by Wrabbit?
I wish I had not read this... thoughts like this make me lose faith in humanity.

I'll pass over the personal jabs... That's cheesy. You raise a fair point though and a decent example. Monsanto or Dow Chemical would be examples where there is no shortage of things happening that would most likely be criminal under the eyes of a Court, not to mention the one of public opinion.

Now, if you expose the criminal activity? You're a whistle blower and, to some, a Hero. If you data dump the Human Resources department, employee database, projects for the last 30 years without seeing or caring what they are or who they touched? You're a douche, pardon my french. It's the difference between doing the right thing and just doing whatever feels right.

Children do what feels right because it feels good and damn who it may hurt. We forgive this in children because they're still learning. Adults do what feels good, but temper that with the potential trade off of harm and, we hope, find a final outcome that balances those two things.

Snowden was an adult. Manning was a child. Criminal isn't my opinion....but what Manning has ALREADY PLED GUILTY TO BY HIS OWN HAND AND WORD. What part of this guilty plea thing don't people grasp? He's on trial for ADDITIONAL charges. His criminal guilt isn't opinion, it's admitted FACT by his own words. :shk:

It's nothing cheesy about truth be it personal or impersonal. But you are certainly free to call it what you like.
I still beg to disagree. He pleaded guilty based on a faulty law that protects the wrongdoers. Did the murderers in the video get the rightful sentence (sorry, i would have to call them murderers at this point since the actions were unbecoming of a patriot and certainly did not represent the ideals of US citizens)? No. This is the sorry upside down state of affair we are currently in and which you are blindly defending. We certainly don't hear you fairly condemning the true criminals.

Manning maybe a child, but he is much more enlightened than most adults in the military service and I dare to say, he has more guts than you can ever have judging from your attempt to make yourself feel better despite your own inaction. Do take time to read the documents he released and tell us exactly which ones you personally think the mafia...I mean the military should keep secret. Refrain from regurgitating what has been fed into your mind by others' opinions and the media. Truly start thinking for yourself. Commence another thread, if that gives you a glimmer of fulfillment in life. I can assure you, you will fail to attain anywhere close to that the kid has.

Manning should be glad they don't deal with treason like they did up until about 100 years or so ago. He would have been drug out on the White House lawn and shot or hung in front of an audience. Hell, Thomas Jefferson himself shot a man for treason, Rodney Cox I believe his name was, right there on the grass at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
However, we don't end that, in my opinion, by destroying the operational security of the men still in the field, still fighting and still dying. We don't end this by engineering the outright defeat of our own people. That isn't helpful, it's treason. No, check that. It's Treason with a capital T. That is where I part company HARD with the "The public has the right to know" crowd, regarding operational detail of military operations, wholesale, while said operations are still ongoing.

Treason is when they lie to get you to war. Treason is when they benefit from getting you to war. Treason is when they help corporations profit by making you involved in war. Treason is when they hide the wrongs they do in war. Treason is when they keep you in endless war. Treason is when they brainwash you into believing in and sending yourself or your loved ones to war. Treason is when they don't think you or your loved ones are worth anything....but dispensable pawns to be sacrificed in war. "Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as 'dumb, stupid animals to be used' as pawns for foreign policy."- The Final Days (Woodward & Berstein).

When will you wake up??

reply to post by Kurius

No. This is the sorry upside down state of affair we are currently in and which you are blindly defending. We certainly don't hear you fairly condemning the true criminals.

That's flat out dishonest or simply lacking any time spent looking at the facts to what you're claiming there. I suggest you take just a moment to at least skim over a person's profile before making such broad statements about them. You'll prevent making yourself look bad by such easily shown misrepresentation of the people you're debating with. To specific example:

Britain admits to torture and pays for it.

Soldier pleads guilty in Afghan massacre, says ‘not a good reason in this world’ for slayings

Expanded US Combat Plans Across Africa??

U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances

British terror suspects quietly stripped of citizenship… then killed by drones

My post regarding the gun camera footage

With the sole exception of the last one? Those aren't threads I simply posted in. Those are threads I took the time and initiative to author myself. It's a sample and by no means every one where I have been critical of my 'own side' or the conduct of what you deem "The true criminals".

I bend over backward to take a fair and even approach to world events without delusions of U.S. moral superiority or the enemy all being ignorant oafs. Either extreme is, itself, ignorant. As I've argued before, myself.

So...while an apology for your statement would be a appropriate, I don't expect one. I do, however, request you take care in characterizing people you know little about. I have integrity. It means something to me and challenging that will bring a response in defense, as it has here.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Kurius

 

No. This is the sorry upside down state of affair we are currently in and which you are blindly defending. We certainly don't hear you fairly condemning the true criminals.

That's flat out dishonest or simply lacking any time spent looking at the facts to what you're claiming there. I suggest you take just a moment to at least skim over a person's profile before making such broad statements about them. You'll prevent making yourself look bad by such easily shown misrepresentation of the people you're debating with. To specific example:

Britain admits to torture and pays for it.

Soldier pleads guilty in Afghan massacre, says ‘not a good reason in this world’ for slayings

Expanded US Combat Plans Across Africa??

U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances

British terror suspects quietly stripped of citizenship… then killed by drones

My post regarding the gun camera footage

With the sole exception of the last one? Those aren't threads I simply posted in. Those are threads I took the time and initiative to author myself. It's a sample and by no means every one where I have been critical of my 'own side' or the conduct of what you deem "The true criminals".

I bend over backward to take a fair and even approach to world events without delusions of U.S. moral superiority or the enemy all being ignorant oafs. Either extreme is, itself, ignorant. As I've argued before, myself.

So...while an apology for your statement would be a appropriate, I don't expect one. I do, however, request you take care in characterizing people you know little about. I have integrity. It means something to me and challenging that will bring a response in defense, as it has here.

edit on 11-6-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: Minor correction in quote

And your character crumbles the moment you label a kid who follows society's moral code a "criminal" based on, let's be honest, implanted FEAR that what he did and others who might follow, would jeopardize the safety of your own blood family member. Life isn't about you or those close to you, Wrabbit. It is about doing what's morally right or the intention, thereof (and that shouldn't be labelled a crime). I would say for every "major leak", there are mountains more that should be disclosed. Ironically, most working in the military are cowards....only "brave" behind their machine guns and under the protection of the twisted laws. You would be proud if one of your own was a Manning instead of a kid who is blindly serving just as another pawn to be used in the interest of special groups.

I would not expect you to apologize for making Mannings out to be a criminal, because that would take not only a positive paradigm shift in the way you perceive situations and in your flawed moral belief system, but also detachment from the emotional responsibility to look out for your own interest....keeping your blood family member "safe". Believe me...as much as I would pray for his/her safety, I cannot see how anyone can be truly safe in an environment in which their physical, spiritual and ethical fibers are exploited, stripped off and/or contradicted. Only when the evils in the military are all exposed, will it be safe. A Manning is doing you and the rest a big favor but you chose to be blinded by your emotional fear and shortsighted gratification. Nothing I write is a "cheesy" personal attack but an opportunity for a self-reflection. But believe what you may.

Meanwhile, just some reading assignment from an old article:
www.mediaroots.org...

then...you would wonder why no action has been taken to prosecute these criminals in the military. Yes, the system is flawed! Such a system with corrupted definitions of "crimes" could corner any innocent person to surrender and let the guilty walk.

Before you judge that the kid should have been selective with what he disclosed, again I would suggest that you study the documents carefully. Show us what should be disclosed and what should be kept secret. With every one that you say should be made known to public, there will be a military guy who will tell you the crime you have committed. Essentially, they will ensure nothing important to the public will ever be disclosed.

reply to post by Kurius


Some day, you will be a part of something, perhaps. Something larger than yourself and your own sense of priorities and what's important in life. You may experience the betrayal of someone turning on it for their own self interests and definitions of 'proper'. Some day, you'll understand by that, what this criminal did to the men serving in his unit, his Service and his nation. I'd never wish this on you or anyone else, but you may even come to be on the side the civilians named in his releases came to find themselves. Targets for killing, for having done what they believed was the right thing.

This boy had no right in this life or any other to judge the worthiness of those people to remain safe in theirs.

Snowden did this nation a favor, at least by what I've seen so far. Daniel Ellsberg did this nation a favor. Bradley Manning bought himself a good portion of his life in a military prison.

Now you have a tendency to make your points by running other people down. I can't respect it and I won't continue debating it. You have a good evening.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Kurius

 

Some day, you will be a part of something, perhaps. Something larger than yourself and your own sense of priorities and what's important in life. You may experience the betrayal of someone turning on it for their own self interests and definitions of 'proper'. Some day, you'll understand by that, what this criminal did to the men serving in his unit, his Service and his nation. I'd never wish this on you or anyone else, but you may even come to be on the side the civilians named in his releases came to find themselves. Targets for killing, for having done what they believed was the right thing.

This boy had no right in this life or any other to judge the worthiness of those people to remain safe in theirs.

Snowden did this nation a favor, at least by what I've seen so far. Daniel Ellsberg did this nation a favor. Bradley Manning bought himself a good portion of his life in a military prison.

Now you have a tendency to make your points by running other people down. I can't respect it and I won't continue debating it. You have a good evening.

I apologize if you felt "run down" by my comments like you were running Manning down (but you probably think it's ok since Manning doesn't get to read your insults, don't you?). You have no right or position to judge the worthiness of what the boy did. You are much too consumed with that feelings of "betrayal" to understand that it is truly for something larger than yourself, your blood family member or the military itself. It is about Humanity. But I understand completely where you come from, but hope you will one day realize this "betrayal" was unfounded, instilled by those who wish to protect their own livelihood and covering their own crimes. You were just brainwashed and made a tool to protect their interests. Unfortunately, they have succeeded.

I wasn't born yesterday to have experienced "betrayals" myself in this lifetime, but I would always question the intentions behind every incident. In Manning's case, did he profit from it or benefit in any way? No. Did he do it for himself or his family members? No. Did he get a promotion, rewards? No. What he did was a selfless act - something that you probably need to learn the meaning of.

Let me present another simple analogy...Let's say you are working for Monsanto (since you mentioned Monsanto) as a low-waged cleaner, but have access to rooms only their research scientists could enter. One day, while cleaning the lab alone, you chance upon a note confirming an in-house finding of the danger of GM crops they have been releasing and profiting from. Under this note, is a stack of materials which you don't understand but "know" they are related. Would you leave the materials alone, take your time learning the meaning of everything (maybe enrolling in Biology 101 at a community college), hoping that you will see the documents there again when you get your A's from your professor? Or would you ensure they are released to someone you trust who will make sense of these details immediately for public release? Manning chose the latter even if that meant he had to lose his job and get prosecuted. I bet you probably wouldn't because you value your cozy $12/hour job and maybe concerned that your fellow workers would be out of the same job too. Let me tell you...I wouldn't appreciate people like you in this world. You would be complicit in the crime.

Yes..someday if what you wished for happens to me, I know I will understand it is not about me, my livelihood or those of my loved ones. I pray you will too. Manning is a child who has the moral character you would want to call your own.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Do you mind if we might just hold that discussion until after our combat troops are HOME and not still dying in the field?

Please tell me when is that event due, so I can make a dot in my calendar.

Sometimes I wonder whether you are just naive or trolling.

That curiosity is more than mutual, believe me, Mario.

I'll be very interested to know when that happens myself, as I've got blood family serving in this god forsaken war in that hell hole of a place. It's personal to me as much as another news story. So I'm real interested in seeing them home, myself. We were told 2014. We heard Joe Biden insist with FORCE of his words in the VP Debate that they WOULD be home in 2014. Period. End of Story. Oh.....errrr.....but for the 9 bases we're being allowed by Karzai. Except for the 10,000-15,000 being left behind for security and response forces for counter-terrorist activities. Err... Well, I guess 2014 really isn't the end after all.

I'll be as happy as anyone when they're all home and that day can't come a moment too soon for me. We're fighting a lost cause and a dead issue, literally after the Pakistan Raid, however we want to speculate on those details. It's over. It's time to end this.

However, we don't end that, in my opinion, by destroying the operational security of the men still in the field, still fighting and still dying. We don't end this by engineering the outright defeat of our own people. That isn't helpful, it's treason. No, check that. It's Treason with a capital T. That is where I part company HARD with the "The public has the right to know" crowd, regarding operational detail of military operations, wholesale, while said operations are still ongoing.

I hope that was clear enough to distinguish my position from that of a troll.

You know what...from your words I see it...you are still hopelessly in love with the system. I'm sorry to say this...,but in all honesty...America has been returning it's troops since the 70's. Emptying one cup, while filling another. It is an ongoing policy...one that your country has adopted as it's economic driving force.

You may get a few of your friends back...but the big picture will not change. Some other John Doe will be just about old enough, and his eyes innocent enough to go to a new war.

Originally posted by EViLKoNCEPTz
reply to post by MarioOnTheFly

 

LOL. Naive? Everyone's been up in arms that the FOBs lost their hot midrats from the draw down. If they were sending more troops over they wouldn't be closing bases and pulling support to begin the troop movements. They aren't gonna spend all their time and effort closing bases and turning others over to the Afghan forces to turn right back around and redeploy all the same stuff. If anyone's naive it's you of the logistics involved in a troop withdraw and a redeployment. If they were to withdraw just to redeploy it would be 2015 before they were fully operational again. It takes 12-18 months on either end, deploying or withdrawing. That's 2 to 3 years of wasted effort just to "fool" people into thinking they are withdrawing.

edit on 6/11/2013 by EViLKoNCEPTz because: (no reason given)

Really? They did it in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia after desert storm. Bases close and re-open on a constant basis depending on operational needs and regadless of what the media reports are.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


In love with the system? That isn't quite accurate. I absolutely and without qualification love my nation. I love everything about my nation, as a people and a country.

I distrust and very strongly dislike my Government. The two are very different things. The 'System' is a combination of the two and what makes this whole crazy world go around in my nation as well as every other. So, yes, I am rather attached to the system. There are Anarchist types who believe we should have no system or would just be content with the utter destruction of this one. I've yet to meet one I'd trust running a lemonade stand, let alone rebuilding the system from the ashes left of this one. Without a replacement, the destruction of what we have is insane. It's Mad Max with better guns....or for those unfortunate enough to not have such tools of defense in a world gone mad, it's slavery to whoever takes possession of a body first.

I'm in college, not to destroy the system, but to do my part within it, to help bring change. Failing that, I intend to be in a position and with the education to assist in the rebuilding after it falls under it's own weight and without my cheering or assistance in any way.

I'm not sure what you'd ultimately like to see happen here...but large scale collapse of functional society means but one thing to me. Only one thing. A good % of those alive today, won't be tomorrow, figuratively speaking. Now some give that absolutely no thought or simply don't care. I see it as the first and foremost consideration. It's where I differ from many, while seeking the same overall end result.