Yahweh...Enki in disguise?

reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation



Well really to remind that things aren't neccesarily as they seem i suppose, that sides can seemingly be played off one against the other but it's all an illusion, as in the case of Enki and Enlil.

reply to post by Kantzveldt

it was Enlil though that sent him after the Anzu bird

There are two versions of the Anžu bird myth, one where Enlil commands his grandson, Ninurta, to reclaim the Me, and another where Enki commands him.

Either variation would be consistent with the mythology of the Sumerians. The reason why I tend to think it was Enki is because of a very little-known myth which follows between Ninurta reclaiming the Me, and his returning of them.

I'll recount the myth here for you, in case you do not know it. The volume it is in is a rare collection of myths detailing Enki himself, from Samuel Noah Kramer and John Maier:

Ninurta's Pride and Punishment


At his command your weapon struck me, hard.
As I let go the Me out of my hand,
Its Me turned back to the Abzu.
As I let go the Giš-ḫur out of my hand,
Its Giš-ḫur turned back to the Abzu.
Its (tablet of destiny) turned back to the Abzu—
I was stripped of the Me.

At (the word of Amar-An)žu, the hero Ninurta was stunned,

(Ninmenna) gives out a wail:
"And what about me? Its Me have not fallen into my hand,
I am not to excersize En-ship of the Abzu.
He would not let (me) . . . . just like the one in the (shrine) Abzu."

Father Enki knew the word (that Ninmenna had spoken).

Amar-Anžu took the hero Ninurta by the hand,
With him drew near to Enki's place, the Abzu,
And thus was Utaulu returned to the Abzu by Amar-Anžu

The Master was delighted with the hero.
Father Enki was delighted with the hero.

The master, Nudimmud, speaks to him with (affec)tion:
"Hero! No god among (your) brother gods could have done so.
As for the bird which your mighty weapon has pinioned—
From now to eternity (you will set) your foot upon its neck.
Let the Great God give (your heroic) strength its due.
Let your father Enlil do whatever (you) command.
Let Ninmenna not design anything like you.
Let her give no one the awesomeness you possess.
Let her have no one (grasp) awesomeness before you.
Monthly may your . . . be constant in the shrine Abzu.
Let your name be proclaimed in the seat of honor."

The hero—his heart did not spring at this blessing.
At his post, how his face darkens, how it pales!
His heart turns over great things.
His heart is hostile.
He . . . not his . . . ,
He . . . his body . . . ,
One the whole universe the hero Ninurta set his sights.
He told no one, his heart did not . . . .

The great Enki, in his own heart, grasped the plan.
In his shrine Abzu he stirred up billowing waves.
By the house the sukkal Isimud threatened (Ninurta).
The hero Ninurta refuses to come out, and raised his hand against Isimud.

Against him Enki designed a turtle made of clay from the Abzu.
Against him he stationed the turtle at the entrance, the gate of the Abzu.
Enki kept talking to him at the place of combat.
Luring him along to the place where the turtle stood.
With its sinews the turtle seized his back.
The hero Ninurta turned back against its (feet)
Enki, as if perplexed, say "now, what is this!"
He had it scrape the ground with its claws, he had it dig an (evil) pit.
The hero Ninurta, he tossed him into it along the turtle.
The hero Ninurta did not know how to ascend from the (evil) pit,
The turtle kept on gnawing at his feet with its (evil) claws.

The great master Enki says to him:
"From . . . I (?) have gathered (?) . . . ,
You who set your mind to kill me,
The braggart who makes great claims,
I set down.
I raise up.
Whatever made you set your mind against me!
What has your past taught you?
What indeed is its . . . ,
To what place has your strength fled?
Where is your heroship?
You have destroyed mountains—
Why is it that now you cannot rise up?"

Ninmenna learned of this situation.
She rips the clothes from her body.
She . . . :
"As for you, my plant-eater,
Who carried the Me away from you?
You, the one whose head does not shake with fear,
That . . . ,
Who carried the Me away from you?
Enki, that thing that has no name,
It's name that is: 'the day that does not pour'
You, pitiless death,
Who carried the Me away from you?"

Pg. 84-86

MORE BELOW

CONTINUED FROM ABOVE

The myth then ends with Ninmenna (who is Ninḫursag, if you didn't know) commanding Enki to release Ninurta from the "evil" pit that he has trapped him in. After Enki releases Ninurta, Ninurta tempers his desire to rule "the whole universe" and returns the Me to Enlil.

Alternately, Ninurta let's Enki keep the Me, which explains why he (Enki) has the Me instead of Enlil when Inanna comes and steals them away after getting Enki drunk.

From the preceding myth though, its clear that a version of the events of Ninurta retrieving the Me does feature Enki as the one who commands it, instead of Enlil. Seeing as figures like Enki and Ninurta have a very, very old lineage (older than that of Enlil, who becomes King of the Gods when Nippur rises to fame), I would not at all be surprised if the myth was altered to accommodate Enlil's rise to power later.

This would also explain the confusion as to which lineage Ninurta belongs. He is either Enlil's great-grandson through Nanna and Ningal; or he is Ninḫursag's son through an unmentioned parent. As Eridu (Enki's city) is contested to be one of the oldest cities on Earth, and Girsu, the city where Ninurta's cult began with his name as Ningirsu, also being extremely ancient, Ninurta may very well have begun as Enki and Ninḫursag's son, but then been adopted into Enlil and Sud (Ninlil's) lineage when Nippur rose to prominence.

That's a good point, perhaps it is Ninurta that is the unknown Deity that steps in all of a sudden at the end of the Enki and Inanna narrative, there is the precedent as you say, it would sort of make the entire story somewhat pointless though, other than to show what a cool secret agent Ninurta was

I'm not familiar with this part. In all the variations I have (about 4, from various Sumerian myth books) the myth ends with Inanna reaching the gate of Nigulla at Erech-Kullab. She unloads the Me at the White Quay. There, a feminine deity (as Kramer says) outlines the names of various important civic, religious, and agricultural areas of Erech which will now be raised to their former glory because Inanna has brought the Me from Eridu to Erech.

I'll also post the final lines of the Inanna/Enki myth, from the same book, as it lends credence to my theory of Enki actually having wanted Inanna to succeed. These lines are spoken by Enki, concerning Inanna and Erech's new fame due to the claiming of the Me:

At your gipar-gate may the En spend the days in jubilation.
May the sons of your city, the sons of Erech, live there joyous of heart.
And as far as you are concerned:
Your city has indeed been an ally of Eridu . . . ,
To its former place, it will, then, be restored.

pg. 68

Anyway, sorry for the long double-post. Just wanted to present my take on Enki and the Anžu bird mythology.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation


If you're looking for comparative elements, how about...

In Sumerian mythology Enki confronts Kur, a gigantic stone serpent which encircles the Earth and lives within the Void/Sea, the immanent manifestation of the transcendent Nammu. Kur has kidnapped Ereškigal. While the end of the myth is lost, since a score more of Enki myths remain, he obviously overcomes Kur and saves Ereškigal.

In Babylonian mythology Tiamat (the subjugated transcendent Nammu) creates legions of dragons, wolf-monsters, and serpent-creatures who challenge the young gods. Marduk, as the greatest among them, challenges Tiamat and all her children, slaying her, and domesticating them (see the Aphkallu, the Ugallu, and the Scorpion-Men).

In Egyptain mythology the Serpent of Nonexistence, Apep, tries to daily swallow his brother, Khepra-Rē-Atum, the sun-god and bringer of light and life. According to one mythology, both Rē and Apep are the children of Neither, an ancient, powerful feminine creatrix who, later, has the final say concerning the Horus/Set debate. Again, the transcendent goddess births both life and death, which compete for command of the Kingdom.

In the mythology of Anatolia (Hittite) the Supreme God Tarhunt battles with Illuyankas, a fearsome Underworld serpent who tries to kill him. Both figures go back and forth, Illuyankas overcoming Tarhunt and stealing his power, then being tricked by Tarhunt's son, who resurrects his father, who then slays Illuyankas, but not before Illuyankas (a serpent) sheds his old skin, rejuvenating to continue the battle.

Also in Anatolian mythology (Hurrian) the weather-god Tešub encounters the colossus, Ullikummi, who threatens to crush the weather-god. Initially Tešub is routed and defeated by Ullikummi, and exiled from Anatolia. Tešub returns though, after consulting A'a (Ea/Enki), with the Saw of Heaven (loaned to him by Utu). Tešub cuts the feet off of Ullikummi, who falls, creating the Taurus Mountaun Range. Tešub also castrates his father, Kumarbi.

Greek mythology has plenty of examples. The original primordial figures (Nyx, Erebus, Tartarus, Gaia, and Ouranos) are supplanted by the Titans (Cronus, Rhea, Okeanus, Tethys, Hyperion, Theia, etc) who were, in turn, supplanted by the Olympians (Zeus and co.). The Olympians also had to contend with the Cyclops, the Aloadaes, the Giants, and Typhon. The Zeus/Typhon myth having striking resemblance to Enki/Kur, Tarhunt/Illuyankas, as well as Tešub/Ulikummi.

In Celtic mythology the Fomhoire are disfigured giants who populate Ireland before the arrival of the youthful Tuatha dé Danann. A fierce war (the battle of Magh Tuired part 2) occurs between the older, ancient, evil Fomhoire, and the younger, benign Tuatha dé Danann. The victors (the Tuatha dé) inherit Ireland from the Fomhoire, who flee into the sea, becoming the Sea People (a mythological motiff existing in Egypt, and other parts of the world).

And, obviously, in Norse mythology you have the Jotun (Eld and Rime included) who come from Jotunheim (giant land). You also have the Fenris wolf and Jörmungandr, the world-serpent. During Ragnarok:

the pups of Fenrir swallow Sól (the sun-goddess) and Mani (the moon-god)
Surtr the fire-giant slays Freyr who battles him without his magic sword
Loki and Týr kill each other in single-combat
The Fenrir wolf gobbles up Oðin
Jörmungandr poisons Thor

In turn, however:

Sól gives birth to a new sun-daughter who rises from the sea after Ragnarok
Viðar, Oðin's son, kills Fenrir by kicking him with a super-boot.
Móði ok Magni, Thor's sons, reclaim Mjöllnir after Ragnarok.

Again, you have the monstrous offspring of Loki (Fenrir and Jörmungandr) who is the offspring of giants. All of which destroy themselves, heralding in a new age, where youthful, beautiful, fully-Aesir deities take command.

The struggle between Primordial and Giant/Titan/Fomhoire, and then Giant/Titan/Fomhoire and Gods is ubiquitous throughout the mythologies of the world. I'm not familiar enough with Hinduism, or Mesoamerican religion to know if it exists there as well, but it probably does.


~ Wandering Scribe

well some of that really does sound like velikovsky's theory about the solar system going thru some drama with planets, moons, asteroids, etc all slapping into each other.

kronos eats his children (the moons orbiting saturn get knocked into its gravity well), for example

reply to post by undo


The proto-planet Theia collided with the Earth, knocking us into the "safety zone" orbital path we now occupy. In turn, Theia split into two halves, which chased each other around Earth as satellites, before being reunited. Very similar to the pre-Greek myth of Demeter losing Persephone, seeking her around the whole world, and finally being reunited with her.

Saturn and Jupiter during the early, formative years of our solar system also competed for the orbital path Jupiter now occupies. During this time both planets flung in and out of orbit, throwing the entire system into chaos, before Jupiter finally pushed Saturn out of the orbital path, which is why Saturn is now beyond Jupiter, very consistent with the Titanomachy where Zeus usurps Cronus (Jove supplants Saturn).

Whether, or how, the Greeks could have known that is beyond me. But the parallels do exist, yes.


~ Wandering Scribe

wouldn't it be trippy if greek and roman mythology was based originally on the descriptions in a science book about events happening around the solar system and when the information was discovered, they either didn't know it was referring to planets/moons etc, or they knew but decided to keep that info under the radar and just deified the lot of them.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe



It looks like the translation might be considered slightly differantly now with regards to the Enki and Inanna story, the ending from the ETCSL;

126-128. Enki spoke to holy Inana: "In the name of my power, in the name of my abzu, I will establish …… in my abzu for the woman."
129-130. (Inana speaks: "Why has this one now entered here? …… taking the divine powers from me?"
131-142.
3 lines fragmentary(A third deity speaks: "May the …… in your name!"
4 lines fragmentary "May there be …… a festival! May …… pass their time …… at the gate of your Ĝipar! May the citizens of your city, Inana, the citizens of Unug, live ……! And as for you, Enki -- may …… your city, Eridug ……, and has indeed restore

Like i said that looks like a third Divine party has suddenly intervened and restored everything.

etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...


The myth of the Anzu bird seems to be about stealing the Tablet of Destiny primarily, that confers absolute Universal authority, it's generally considered that this was held by Enlil after overcoming primordial chaos as ruled by En-meshar, translated as 'Lord of All Me'

Binsbergen/Wiggermann


The opposition of m e / partsu and n a m t a r / shimtu is not just conceptually implied, but turns out to be made explicit in third millennium cosmogony. 40 Herein a cosmic ocean, N a m m a , produces a proto-universe, Heaven and Earth undivided. In a series of stages, all represented by gods, Heaven and Earth produce the Holy Mound (d u k u g ), which in its turn produces E n l i l , ‘Lord Ether’, who by his very existence separates Heaven and Earth. E n l i l , representing the space between Heaven and Earth, the sphere of human and animal life, organises what he finds by his decisions (n a m t a r / shimtu), and thus puts everything into place: the universe becomes a cosmos. Before being permanently subjected, however, the primordial universe (Heaven and Earth) rebels; its representative, a member of the older generation of gods, E n m e sh a r r a , ‘Lord All M e ’, tries to usurp E n l i l ’s prerogative to n a m t a r / shimtu (i.e. prerogative to make decisions). He is defeated by E n l i l and incarcerated in the netherworld for good. The myth can be read as a theistically-slanted argument on two modes of defining order: an immutable cosmological order (m e / partsu) whose unmistakable champion is E n m e sh a r r a , against a protean, individual-centred, volitional, anthropomorphic order, whose champion is E n l i l .

That's from what i quoted here;


www.abovetopsecret.com...


And also Inanna could be refered to as Nin-mesharra, 'Lady of the Me', which again suggests she was understood by some as retaining all ME, at least the great ones.


Queen of all the ME, Radiant Light,
Life-giving Woman, beloved of An (and) Urash,
Hierodule of An, much bejeweled,
Who loves the life-giving tiara, fit for High Priestesshood,
Who grasps in (her) hand, the seven ME,
My Queen, you who are the Guardian of All the Great ME,
You have lifted the ME, have tied the ME to Your hands,
Have gathered the ME, pressed the ME to Your breast.

I do think it most likely that it was Enlil who was seen as first obtaining the ME from Primordial Chaos, a further complication is that sometimes Enki appears to be running the Gallu Demons!

Also it has to be taken into account that Demons of Primordial Chaos probably don't require many ME, and that they were thus adapted and added to as Creation progressed, from the basics to the refined functions of civilization.

i am pretty sure the primordial chaos is a reference to wormholes/white holes/black holes.

@ Undo, I think I read something that spoke along those lines, concerning a gate of some sort.

Not to sure about it as its been 7 years, so don't quote me on that.

It is an e-book titled "nibiru and wormwood" by E. Vegh 2005

It would be awesome to draw a time line connecting all of these deities and tracing them back to Sumerian times. Then we can try and figure out where their deities came from.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
It would be awesome to draw a time line connecting all of these deities and tracing them back to Sumerian times. Then we can try and figure out where their deities came from.

Very funny AfterInfinity, you know very well these are all Sumerian, Akkadian Gods, Images, ITS the time line in question? 6000 years ago or 400,000 years ago (not the crude figurines) and where did this knowledge come from, Sumerian Cuniform clay texts and their translators, that can be dated but the IDEAS are another thing they speak of the Hiburu, Nefilim, Annunaki (a more complete history even though primitive survives). At least someone wrote something down, unlike AD 0 the "Crixtian Cruciform Project" was invented by its creators much later by some 300 years. For example the New Testiment is sadly lacking in Solomon knowledge.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Depends on which archetype, or motif you're looking for. I can do so with the Storm Lord/Sky God, and the Dying and Rising God pretty well. Maybe even the Champion. But all gods? Nope, beyond me, ha ha.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by vethumanbeing


A well-documented timeline would come in very handy as evidence for that argument though.

READ ALL OF THIS.
RESIST THE URGE TO REPLY UNTIL YOU'VE READ IT ALL

the oldest so far, are the anunnaki (as far as ancient texts go). tiamat is babylonian and was originally the same thing as abzu/abyss, as i mentioned before.

another fellow, who claimed his native american grandfather was befriended and enlightened by an ET, gave him a supposed history of the universe. it's called the terra papers. some people might be familar with it. it contains 2 things, at the very least, that i've found corroborating evidence for, and the rest is kind iffy. those two things are:

the egyptian goddess hathor was actually the same thing as the abzu, et.al, tiamat is the babylonian version of hathor. however, hathor, as i have discovered thru research, was modelled after an even older goddess named bat, and bat, was actually a symbol for a pool of milky water, symbollizing the milky way. in effect, there was really no goddess known as hathor, only a deification of a pool of the milky way. after studying it for awhile i realized it was a gate of the milky way, and the pool was a reference to the event horizon of a wormhole.

this lead me right back to my original theory that tiamat was abzu and abzu was abyss and abyss was a gated wormhole and the whole thing was called primordial chaos and the nun, as well. in norse mythology, i theorized it was also depicted as fenri and that the binding of fenri, was the same as the closing down of the wormhole, as is depicted by the putting to sleep or killing of abzu.

so, it looks like this:

abzu = abyss = tehom = tiamat = bat = hathor = nun = primordial chaos = fenri = wormhole.

to test my theory, i went off to learn about wormholes, black holes and white holes, and this is what i found out

a team of scientists known as the nuker team, discovered that super massive black holes exist at the center of every galaxy and that they are what created the universe, so there's your primordial chaos.

reply to post by undo


I read your entire post, and would like to ask that you read the entirety of mine. I disagree with your conclusions, but not because I think you're wrong. Only that I think you're plugging in the wrong figures for each conclusion. Try reading what I present below, and then apply it to your theory, you may have more luck that way.

~ Wandering Scribe



Hathor is the sky-cow mother-goddess concept from ancient Egypt. She is not herself the Abyss, that is Nu/Nun, who, like Nuit (the starry heavens) was simultaneously a transcendent, and immanent force.

You can find Hathor's parallel in Sumerian mythology with Ninsuna, "lady wild cow", daughter of An and Uraš who became the mother of Giglameš.

In Norse mythology this role is filled by Auðumbla, the sky-cow who licks the salt blocks from the Ginnungagap, slowly exposing the first god: Búri, grandfather of Oðin, Vili, and Vé.

Tiamat, as I explained earlier, was the patriarchal devolution of the transcendent primordial, Nammu (the Abyss/sea), who mated with An to produce Enlil, Nudimmud/Enki, and Ninmah/Ninḫursag.

In case you're unfamiliar, deity titles do have meanings.

Primordial deities are those without progenitors. They may be archetypal, represent a motif, or hold offices, but the defining trait is that they create themselves, and can create without partners. Among various cultures, Primordial forces include:

Antu, Uraš, and Nammu in Sumerian-Akkadian mythology.
Apsu and Tiamat in Babylonian-Assyrian mythology.
Nun and Neith in Egyptian mythology.
Nyx, Erebus, Eros, Tartarus, Ouranos, and Gaia in Greek mythology.
Ymir, Auðumbla, and Búri in Norse/Viking mythology.

The Primordial forces often then give birth to the first generation of cosmic forces: Titans, Giants, Monsters, etc. These are the sons and daughters of the Primordial forces, but that almost always represent a state of pure chaos, and unfettered Nature. Among various cultures they are:

Kur and Asag in Sumerian-Akkadian mythology.
Lahmu, Lahamu, Anšar, and Kišar in Babylonian-Assyrian mythology.
Apep and the "Night Demons" of Egyptian mythology.
The Bergrisar, Eldjötnar, Hrímþursar, Fenrir wolf, and Jörmungandr of Norse/Viking mythology.
The Fomhoire in Celtic mythology.

Far and away though, the culture who best display this middle class of Natural forces would be the Greco-Roman groups, which include as many as five generations of Titans/Giants, including:

Okeanus, Tethys, Hyperion, Theia, Coeus, Phoebus, Cronus, Rhea, Mnemosyne, Themis, Crius, Iapetus, Atlas, Prometheus, Helios, Selene, Leto, Asteria, the Aloadae brothers, the Giants, the Cyclops, the Hekatonkheires, Typhon, and so on, and so forth.

Only once you've reached beyond the Primordial and Titanic generations do you begin to arrive at Earth-gods, sky-gods, and cthonic-gods. Which are the generation of deities who interact with mankind. They are the archetypes and motifs which helped shape human sociological and biological evolution. Among them you'll find:

The Anunnaki and Igigi of Mesopotamia.
The Neteru of Egypt.
The Olympians of Greco-Roman mythology.
The Asuras and Devas of Hindu mythology.
The Tuatha dé, Tylwyth Teg, and Moura of Celtic mythology.
The Æsir and Vanir of Norse/Viking mythology.

Understanding the cyclical "ages" of divinity as found in mythology is extremely important to any analysis of mythological, spiritual, mythical, or metaphysical importance. Especially when attempting to cross-synthesize different mythological collections.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Depends on which archetype, or motif you're looking for. I can do so with the Storm Lord/Sky God, and the Dying and Rising God pretty well. Maybe even the Champion. But all gods? Nope, beyond me, ha ha.~ Wandering Scribe

Not at all, as a Pagan you have greater knowledge than some, and you as well know how this tapestry is woven with the lessor Gods, and their Creators; my question is how do humans fit into the equation. The gods seem to be fighting so much amongst themselves theyve forgotten us or at the very least neglected OUR ideaform manefested (afterall they created us).

reply to post by undo


Every galaxy has an abyss (black hole in its center). Its the machine that drives the organism, the negative reacting with a positive resulting in the creation of the new, matter in this case. Not my bold idea, its out there thanks for the refreshing info undo.

reply to post by undo


Perhaps the Eridanus supervoid might fit the bill . It flows from Aquarius one of Enk'is signs and seems to have been thought of as a river such as the euphrates carrying soals to the underworld.

Strangely enough the the Eridanus Supervoid is the largest supervoid (an area of the universe devoid of galaxies) discovered as of 2007. At a diameter of about one billion light years it is much larger than any other known void and represents a challenge for current theories of the origins of the universe to explain.

Apparently, the star of eridu was the puppisa constellation in the southern sky. Its name is the Latin word for the poop deck of a ship, and Puppis represents the deck of the ship and its deckhouses. Noahs ark or the argo springs to mind. Lots of strange synchronicies that seem to fit the adage As above so Below.