Pope Francis' Message To Those Who Pray For Their Own Death

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posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


well, given the immense influence and power of his position, combined with his past experiences as well as his insight into the issue at hand it would be hard to say for sure that he is unaware of the issues which cause some people to feel this way.
Given that, it is also hard to say that any one of us cannot come up with viable solutions, but where are the actions?
actions speak louder than words...

ill concede that you make a valid point, but these underlying issues are the same as they have been for years/decades, even longer...
all i hear from his words are..."were not gonna change anything so lets just try to be sympathetic to those we trample over"....




posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 02:33 PM
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Thank you very much for that FlyersFan.
some thing we should all ways remember.
have you a link to the pops speech?

I wounder if the pop would include people suffering from depression?
edit on 10-6-2013 by buddha because: god made me do it.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by RadicalRebel
all i hear from his words are..."were not gonna change anything so lets just try to be sympathetic to those we trample over"....

If that's all you get from it, well then, I guess that's all you can hear.
I hear much more than that.

Side note - Huffington Post - Snip from Popes Talk Back in May

"Today, and it breaks my heart to say it, finding a homeless person who has died of cold, is not news. Today, the news is scandals, that is news, but the many children who don't have food - that's not news. This is grave. We can't rest easy while things are this way."


Considering he's 76 years old .. I think he's doing a pretty good job of getting change to happen. He's doing all he can do ... bringing attention to the situation and trying to change the culture of the Vatican and the world.
edit on 6/10/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

I disagree with making a sweeping statement like that. Until we have walked in another persons shoes, we don't know how much pain and/or suffering a person is in. The natural human condition is to want to live so for a person to be pushed to the point that they have to take their own life ... well ... I think many of those people are very brave to do so.

People who end their lives probably aren't looking for your pity.

They are looking to find relief from their endless pain and suffering.



it has nothing to do with how much pain one feels, of course we all differ in our experiences and perception of pain, but that's not the point of my post. my point is that throwing away your life by choice while others have no choice in death even when desperate to live, is like stepping on their graves, looking down at them as if their suffering means nothing compared to yours, as if you think you're better and deserve more peace than anyone else for your suffering, it shows a lack of regard for others or their lives or life in general.

how is it brave to seek escape and relief? it's harder to suffer and endure it while accepting the truth than it is to end it and escape.

at what point did i say anyone sought any pity? i merely stated that i'd give none to someone suicidal who has no respect for life.
well good for them, they get the easy way out of their suffering don't they.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by buddha
have you a link to the pops speech?

I have googled and can't find it. Vatican Insider didn't have the full text.
It MUST be out there. Full texts of other speeches are available.
It's just a matter of finding it.


I wounder if the pop would include people suffering from depression?

Depression is a medical/psychiatric condition. It is not something that people voluntarily do to themselves.
I cant speak for him, but when I read his words I automatically included depression in
with what he was saying.

edit on 6/10/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 03:16 PM
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I like a lot of what this pope has to say, but I don't support or even like the Catholic church, as a matter of principle. Too many people have had their lives derailed by abuse and too few have ever been brought to justice for their actions. They spent far too long coddling and protecting child abusers, even relocating them to new communities with free reign to abuse again.

I have a piece of paper in a shoebox somewhere listing my religion as Catholic, but I wasn't given a choice in the matter. I think there are a lot of people alive today with little or no faith at least in part owing to the actions of the Catholic church. It's a despicable institution, and unless Pope Francis does something drastic, I can't see my opinion of the institution ever changing.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by namehere
my point is that throwing away your life by choice while others have no choice in death even when desperate to live, is like stepping on their graves,

A person who is suicidal usually isn't 'throwing away their life by their own choice'. Severe pain ... psychological depression ... no one chooses to have those. People who end their lives usually feel that they have no other choice. The pain and/or despair drive them off the cliff.

how is it brave to seek escape and relief?

Because the natural thing to do is to want to live. To go against the natural impulse so as to end your own suffering, is a brave thing.

at what point did i say anyone sought any pity? i merely stated that i'd give none to someone suicidal who has no respect for life.

People who are suicidal have no respect for life? That's absurd. You couldn't possibly know that.

well good for them, they get the easy way out of their suffering don't they.

You really think it's 'easy' for someone to pull the trigger on themselves? Really?
Seriously dude .. you've got no idea what people in despair, depression, or severe pain go through.
None of it is easy for them .. the anguish of living and the anguish of having to take the only road
that they feel is available to them.

What I find incredibly selfish is when someone, who hasn't walked a mile in the suffering
persons shoes, makes comments like 'they have no respect for life'.

People who are painfully starving to death and who pray for a quick death ... that's not
someone who 'has no respect for life'. That's someone who is in despair and pain.

People who are terminally ill and in intense pain who pray for a quick death ... that's not
someone who has 'no respect for life'. Thats' someone who is in despair and pain.

I find what the Pope said to be wonderful. Considering how the Catholics and Protestants have treated people through the centuries who have had clinical depression or who have been in painful situations beyond our understanding. Good for Pope Francis!



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by sulaw
It should be noted: That whatever belief system you corelate yourself with. Nothing in life be it suffering or not is not dealt out to those that cannot handle. As the old saying goes "God does not give you anything you cannot, handle"

As ATS will take the above said in various forms and ways, it holds true none the less and no matter or difference the belief system any individual takes.


See this is one of those pithy archaic sayings from the Book that lead me to doubt any of it's veracity. To say "God does not give you anything you cannot, handle" is frankly a bald faced lie. If it were even remotely true we wouldn't have people committing suicides all over the world.

Or did I misunderstand your meaning?



posted on Jun, 11 2013 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by namehere
certainly lamenting and praying for death isn't a sin or whatever but to act on it and killing yourself is an act of weakness, it's wrong in the sense that there are many struggling to live and lose in the end, yet you think it's so much harder for you so you give up what time you have left, throwing away any opportunities you might've had to enjoy in your time here, running away from life because it hurts and ignoring the good you can have.
life is pain, you can't live or find happiness without it. i think those willing to kill themselves deserve no pity, those who fight to live despite their suffering and those who accept their death yet live to their fullest despite their suffering deserve more compassion.



I think this was more directed at those who are terminal or suffering through so much physical pain that normalities of life cannot even begin to be enjoyed.



posted on Jun, 11 2013 @ 01:03 AM
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reply to post by RothchildRancor
 


I was raised "very" catholic - I don't believe in the pope, but I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I believe in the mercy that the Father shows everyone, and love that Jesus shows us, and the guidance the Holy Spirit gives us - and all we have to do is ask.

The Trinity knows each one of us better than we know ourselves. Life can be very cruel at times, and they know how we feel, and they love us, and they forgive us,

I think the jesuit pope is just going along with the - it's ok if all these people die while the vatican has enormous wealth and a lot of knowledge that most of us cannot even comprehend - life saving technological knowledge.

They've got trust fund money for obozo and his compatriots there all hidden away too. And God knows everything.

This jesuit pope IS the end of suffering, in many ways - just wait and see.
edit on 11-6-2013 by Happy1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 11-6-2013 by Happy1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2013 @ 04:17 AM
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I am a fan of the new pope. He seems like a great and compassionate guy.



posted on Jun, 11 2013 @ 04:22 AM
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reply to post by RothchildRancor
 


I actually think it was directed at any one who prays for god to relieve them of their time on Earth.

I don't think the focus was on how miserable some people are compared to how one shouldn't disrespect a person with the mindset to perform the action of praying for heavenly relief just because they think the issues they are enduring are not significant enough to warrant such an action.

Some people are very judgmental, the pope seems to be very reserved in his judgements.



posted on Jun, 11 2013 @ 04:48 AM
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life is pain, you can't live or find happiness without it. i think those willing to kill themselves deserve no pity
reply to post by namehere
 


Harsh words from a cold heart.

No-one can feel another's pain in it's totality. We can only empathise with those who suffer, from what we can learn about it from the individual going through a traumatic time.
We as outsiders to those in that dire situation can only see solutions to that person's utter despair through our own perspective, taken from our own experiences in life, that holds little or no comparison to how that person is feeling or how their life is at the time of their despair.

How can't you feel any pity for someone who feels in such a desperate, over-whelming and unbearable sad time in their life?

edit on 11-6-2013 by Tykonos because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2013 @ 07:03 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


I spent a good deal of my life praying for death daily. I have my babysitter's son, James O'Reilly jr for giving me a memory when I was 4 that has left me with problems looking in the mirror to this day. Almost 40 yrs later. I forgave him. I just want to look him the eye to tell him myself.
edit on 11-6-2013 by GoldenRuled because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2013 @ 11:30 PM
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Pope Francis seems more Godly than our pastors in my local Pentecostal church.

What Pope Francis is saying, a reference can be found in the Bible.

Prophet Jeremiah seems to have prayed for his own death too!


Jeremiah 20:14-18
Cursed be the day I was born!
May the day my mother bore me not be blessed!
15 Cursed be the man who brought my father the news,
who made him very glad, saying,
“A child is born to you—a son!”
16 May that man be like the towns
the Lord overthrew without pity.
May he hear wailing in the morning,
a battle cry at noon.
17 For he did not kill me in the womb,
with my mother as my grave,
her womb enlarged forever.
18 Why did I ever come out of the womb
to see trouble and sorrow
and to end my days in shame?
edit on 11-6-2013 by ahnggk because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2013 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by RothchildRancor
 


I was raised "very" catholic - I don't believe in the pope, but I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I believe in the mercy that the Father shows everyone, and love that Jesus shows us, and the guidance the Holy Spirit gives us - and all we have to do is ask.

The Trinity knows each one of us better than we know ourselves. Life can be very cruel at times, and they know how we feel, and they love us, and they forgive us,

I think the jesuit pope is just going along with the - it's ok if all these people die while the vatican has enormous wealth and a lot of knowledge that most of us cannot even comprehend - life saving technological knowledge.

They've got trust fund money for obozo and his compatriots there all hidden away too. And God knows everything.

This jesuit pope IS the end of suffering, in many ways - just wait and see.
edit on 11-6-2013 by Happy1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 11-6-2013 by Happy1 because: (no reason given)


With all that said, I still agree with him that if(even in a christian viewpoint) someone prays for death that is bound to a situation where any reasonable quality of life is compromised then they shouldn't go to hell.

And i don't mean if you didn't get that promotion, either!

Btw, I also don't believe in God, Heaven, or Hell.

I dunno, I felt like I should add that for some reason!



posted on Jun, 12 2013 @ 02:27 AM
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As a Catholic I don't see any of the paradigm shift others in this thread seem to recognize.

Here is the full complaint of Jeremiah:


7 You deceived me, Lord, and I was deceived;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.
8 Whenever I speak, I cry out
proclaiming violence and destruction.
So the word of the Lord has brought me
insult and reproach all day long.
9 But if I say, “I will not mention his word
or speak anymore in his name,”
his word is in my heart like a fire,
a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in;
indeed, I cannot.
10 I hear many whispering,
“Terror on every side!
Denounce him! Let’s denounce him!”
All my friends
are waiting for me to slip, saying,
“Perhaps he will be deceived;
then we will prevail over him
and take our revenge on him.”

11 But the Lord is with me like a mighty warrior;
so my persecutors will stumble and not prevail.
They will fail and be thoroughly disgraced;
their dishonor will never be forgotten.
12 Lord Almighty, you who examine the righteous
and probe the heart and mind,
let me see your vengeance on them,
for to you I have committed my cause.

13 Sing to the Lord!
Give praise to the Lord!
He rescues the life of the needy
from the hands of the wicked.


14 Cursed be the day I was born!
May the day my mother bore me not be blessed!
15 Cursed be the man who brought my father the news,
who made him very glad, saying,
“A child is born to you—a son!”
16 May that man be like the towns
the Lord overthrew without pity.
May he hear wailing in the morning,
a battle cry at noon.
17 For he did not kill me in the womb,
with my mother as my grave,
her womb enlarged forever.
18 Why did I ever come out of the womb
to see trouble and sorrow
and to end my days in shame?


Yes, it ends on a negative note but you cannot ignore the expression of trust and faith preceding it directly. And in the context of the entire Book of Jeremiah you just have to flip forward a few pages to chapter 30 and following to see the opposite perspective.

Jeremiah 20:7-18 should also be well known to any Catholic (and Christians of many other creeds as well) as it is the text that is chanted at the Tenebrae on three days of the Holy Week.

We cry with Jeremiah during the Holy Week but at the end of our lamentations stands the miracle of resurrection and eternal life.
We pray Psalm 22 ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?") with the Psalmist (and Jesus) in utmost desperation but close with praise and in the knowledge that "He has done it!".
Job challenges God, recognizes his error and is rewarded with twice of what he had lost.
Tobit and Sarah pray for their own death but the Lord sends Raphael to restore both of them.

These biblical persons don't just go and drown in misery or kill themselves - they bring all their pain, anguish, doubts, accusations, ... before God and are restored in a way that exceeds any expectation. That last part cannot be ignored, it is the message.

This type of prayer is a desperate act of faith not an act of rolling over and giving up.

One key element is the motive of placing your life entirely into the hands of God (as sharply opposed to taking matters into your own hands).

"So now deal with me as you will;" Tobit 3:6
"But if it is not pleasing to you, O Lord, to take my life, hear me in my disgrace.” Tobit 3:15
"From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God." Psalm 22:10
("yet not my will, but yours be done" Luke 22:42)

From the article:


The Pope said that Tobit and Sarah’s wish to die could not be considered blasphemy. In some situations, lamenting one’s misfortunes before God is not a sin but a prayer. Even Job and the prophet Jeremiah cursed the day they were born. “The Lord hears, He listens to our complaints.”


That this sort of prayer is encouraged in desperate situations and not considered blasphemy has always been obvious (as I said - scripture texts like Jeremiah 20 or Psalm 22 are a prominent part of the liturgy during the Holy Week, books like Job, Tobit, Qohelet, ... wouldn't be canonical if it was a problem).

It would be very interesting to have the full text of Pope Francis' homily (I'll look for it later today) - but so far I don't see any sign of a paradigm shift.





edit on 12-6-2013 by hakona because: (no reason given)
edit on 12-6-2013 by hakona because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2013 @ 03:09 AM
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reply to post by hakona
 


I pray that all of you pope francis lover's will read his history and the jesuit oath.

I love the trinity - and I feel that catholics around the world are going to fall for this unholy man.



posted on Jun, 12 2013 @ 11:05 AM
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They shouldn't be considered to be in deep pain, that is an awful thing to think of a person. I suspect Pope Francis doesn't like it and uses Christians to inflict deep pain. They should be considered as deeply caring because they went through all the trouble to see the evil in the world and all of the errors. They should further be considered as suffering, the kind which cleanses the soul.



posted on Jun, 12 2013 @ 11:16 AM
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I can understand praying for death, probably more than any of you. You see, my wife died suddenly, at home, in my arms. I am a welo trained ICU nurse, but I couldn't save her. My heart is broken, and while I might pray for death, so I can be joined to wife in heaven, I would never contemplate suicide. Suicide is the ultimate sin, one from which there is no forgiveness.
To those of you who don't believe in God, the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit, I feel sorry for you. You have no one to lean on in times of distress. You have no one to lean on when your spirit, your soul is in pain.
I realize I will be flamed for what I have written, but I don't care. I will pray for you, whether you want it or not.



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