Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

Pope Francis' Message To Those Who Pray For Their Own Death

page: 1
20
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join

posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 08:31 AM
link   
Philosophical discussion - praying for death.

Do not judge those who are in so much pain that they pray for their own death.
Do not treat these people as mere statistics, but instead as individuals in deep pain.
It's not wrong for those in misery and/or pain to want to want to 'move on' as soon as possible.
What you consider an acceptable level of pain/misery isn't what others can endure.
We are not all the same.
Until we have walked in that persons shoes, we can't fully judge their feelings or situation.

Vatican Insider - Pope Francis message to those who pray for their own death

The Bishop of Rome invited faithful to pray for those who are terminally ill and for all those experiencing extreme suffering, without treating them as abstract moral problems. ...

The Pope said that Tobit and Sarah’s wish to die could not be considered blasphemy. In some situations, lamenting one’s misfortunes before God is not a sin but a prayer. Even Job and the prophet Jeremiah cursed the day they were born. “The Lord hears, He listens to our complaints.”

The Pope explained how these biblical readings applied in today’s world, by mentioning three examples of people living in conditions of extreme suffering: malnourished children, refugees, the terminally ill. The worst thing a Christian can do is to look at those who suffer “as though they were an [abstract moral conundrum].”


And as a side note .. I hate the word 'blasphemy'. It's arbitrary and subjective. But for those who want to discuss the 'blasphemy' aspect that they think may be there, the Pope says it's not 'blasphemy' for a person to pray to God to end their own suffering by the sweet release that death brings. He gave scriptural examples.

Anyways .. I try to find something each day to talk about and I thought this was a pretty good philosophical subject to discuss on a rainy day. Praying for your own death. Death as a welcome friend and not the enemy. Death is the opposite of what a living creature is supposed to wish for. We all have that 'drive to live'. And yet, death is what many people pray/wish for to end their sufferings and misery. What does that say about humanity that there are so many people suffering and that many pray for death? What does that say about God that there are so many people suffering that they pray for death? Discuss ...

ETA .. just wanted to add ... with the exception of the Popes statement about wealth redistribution .. i find his statements on the spiritual issues and on the running of the church to be
edit on 6/10/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 08:54 AM
link   
reply to post by FlyersFan
 

Wow, what a coincidence.
I was contemplating this exact problem at Mass in a Catholic church yesterday. Whether or not I would be going to hell for certain if I prayed for my own death.
I didn't get a clear answer yesterday.
Maybe I got it today.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 08:57 AM
link   
certainly lamenting and praying for death isn't a sin or whatever but to act on it and killing yourself is an act of weakness, it's wrong in the sense that there are many struggling to live and lose in the end, yet you think it's so much harder for you so you give up what time you have left, throwing away any opportunities you might've had to enjoy in your time here, running away from life because it hurts and ignoring the good you can have.
life is pain, you can't live or find happiness without it. i think those willing to kill themselves deserve no pity, those who fight to live despite their suffering and those who accept their death yet live to their fullest despite their suffering deserve more compassion.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 09:00 AM
link   
As for me, this illusion is just too damn boring. And I am too limited in this physical body. This illusions doesn't mean much to me if at all. I am not happy or unhappy. Happiness or unhappiness is just a thought, an illusion also. So yes. If I would have to die right now I wouldn't have a problem with it. And I wouldn't mind for death to come sooner.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 09:11 AM
link   
reply to post by FlyersFan
 



Originally posted by FlyersFan
Do not judge those who are in so much pain that they pray for their own death.
Do not treat these people as mere statistics, but instead as individuals in deep pain.
It's not wrong for those in misery and/or pain to want to want to 'move on' as soon as possible.
What you consider an acceptable level of pain/misery isn't what others can endure.
We are not all the same.
Until we have walked in that persons shoes, we can't fully judge their feelings or situation.


I agree with the Pope on some things, and disagree with him on others, but I agree with you completely here.
Judging someone as selfish or weak because they "pray" for the torment of life to end, or even end their life themselves, is something I avoid. Some think life is the ultimate. And for them, maybe it is. But to me, there are fates MUCH worse than death and to long for the sweet release of the end of that torment is something I can understand.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 09:19 AM
link   
It raises some interesting philosophical questions, this idea of praying for an external force to end one's own existence.

Would the individual be held spiritually accountable for their death should an external force follow through with their prayers? Who knows...

edit on 10/6/2013 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 10:02 AM
link   
i offer you the perspective of some one who finds themselves frequently asking for such release.

There are times when i pray to god that he will take me from this life, sometimes out of spite of those around me, sometimes out of hatred for myself and my own actions.

Do the popes words give me hope?....no
There are times in this life where i simply feel that being human is itself a sin, as we continue to destroy and desecrate the world and the people around us, we limit ourselves with greed and stifle our own growth with hatred and it is when i find myself caught up in these sins that i wish for death to take me.

obviously death has stayed its hand for whatever reason. Yes there are times when i am joyed with life and happy that my prayers have no been answered, usually shortly after i make such prayers some little joy will arise to remind me why i should want to live.

The popes message is not one of them, all he has offered is pity upon those who suffer without resolution to the causes of thier suffering.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 10:05 AM
link   
reply to post by Pitons
 


I agree. The world isn't that good of a place. I've got dreams but if they are cut short then that's no problem. There are only a few things I really want to experience in this life. Mabey I'm just an old soul. But this whole experience has become tiring.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 10:26 AM
link   
reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Excellent topic Flyer~



What you consider an acceptable level of pain/misery isn't what others can endure.
We are not all the same.
Until we have walked in that persons shoes, we can't fully judge their feelings or situation.


This couldn't be more true, how do you judge one's life and though you may have experianced similiar trials this does not constitute ground for another to judge another.

As we are all connected, we are also seperate as individuals and concious sentient beings. The journey one takes is not greater or lesser than anyone else's path.

There are examples of exact copies of trials that individuals endure as said person A from B take 2 totally different perspectives and stances in life, not 1 is greater and not one the wiser. Both find solace in the decisions they make as it should be. Yet many are quick to judge as said person A who took a particular path had more success and can't see why B took there's. But as individual(s) we all experiance life "differently" and to judge one is to judge a life which shoes do not fit.
edit on 10-6-2013 by sulaw because: (no reason given)
edit on 10-6-2013 by sulaw because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 10:50 AM
link   
reply to post by butcherguy
 

Yep ... I'd say that you may have indeed gotten your answer.
I have felt guilty about asking God ... 'either cure me or kill me but at least get this over with'.
But I guess I have the popes stamp of approval for those times I've said it.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 10:53 AM
link   

Originally posted by namehere
t to act on it and killing yourself is an act of weakness

I disagree with making a sweeping statement like that. Until we have walked in another persons shoes, we don't know how much pain and/or suffering a person is in. The natural human condition is to want to live so for a person to be pushed to the point that they have to take their own life ... well ... I think many of those people are very brave to do so.
[quote think those willing to kill themselves deserve no pity,

People who end their lives probably aren't looking for your pity.
They are looking to find relief from their endless pain and suffering.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 10:54 AM
link   

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by butcherguy
 

Yep ... I'd say that you may have indeed gotten your answer.
I have felt guilty about asking God ... 'either cure me or kill me but at least get this over with'.
But I guess I have the popes stamp of approval for those times I've said it.

I think the Pope is right on this one.
How can God fault you for asking?



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 10:57 AM
link   
It should be noted: That whatever belief system you corelate yourself with. Nothing in life be it suffering or not is not dealt out to those that cannot handle. As the old saying goes "God does not give you anything you cannot, handle"

As ATS will take the above said in various forms and ways, it holds true none the less and no matter or difference the belief system any individual takes.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 10:58 AM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Some think life is the ultimate. And for them, maybe it is. But to me, there are fates MUCH worse than death and to long for the sweet release of the end of that torment is something I can understand.

Awesome. And I totally agree with you.

For many people on earth, their mantra is 'life is good'. But I've noticed that the people who say that are usually very healthy and well fed. Thats the opposite of the people that the pope mentioned .. those who are refugees and who are terminally ill and who are in intense suffering. Praying for death could actually be a statement of faith that there is something better after this suffering-filled life and the person is looking forward to what is coming next.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 11:01 AM
link   

Originally posted by sulaw
As the old saying goes "God does not give you anything you cannot, handle"

I used to believe that. Not anymore. I see PLENTY of suffering out there that people can't handle. Plenty of crushing and degrading suffering that is nothing short of pure evil. I have seen strong people ... mentally capable and stable ... brought to a blubbering mess because things happen to them that they aren't equipped to handle.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 11:15 AM
link   
reply to post by FlyersFan
 





I used to believe that. Not anymore. I see PLENTY of suffering out there that people can't handle. Plenty of crushing and degrading suffering that is nothing short of pure evil. I have seen strong people ... mentally capable and stable ... brought to a blubbering mess because things happen to them that they aren't equipped to handle.


I totally understand where this thought comes from and to a certain degree I can also agree with the above statement.

Personally and only personally (As my beliefs are mine) the laws of Karma, Divine Laws and Past Lives are well more than just Psuedo-Metaphysical thoughts by humanity. To further one's conciousness and soul "Lessons" are needed and are "Individual" to each Concious Sentient being even with this statement, it would hold true that you cannot judge one individual w/o living and experiancing there life a.k.a "Putting there shoes on".

The Karmic Wheel always finds a way to balance itself out. And though some situations do bring a once mentally stable and capable individual to there knees, it's still there journey and unless you can account for every action that person has led throughout there lifetime and prior, saying that they "Can't Handle" Or even just "Not Fair" is for me unbalanced and not true.

Just a thought Flyer, I am enjoying this thread



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 12:01 PM
link   

Originally posted by RadicalRebel

The popes message is not one of them, all he has offered is pity upon those who suffer without resolution to the causes of thier suffering.


Nobody can end or resolve another man's suffering for it is only inside a person's mind and soul where suffering can cease to exist. I am not a religious person but that is what Pope talks about here - nobody can therefore compare suffering - that he also mentioned.

I like the fact he talked about it because pity is always better than judging, a lot of folks on this thread are judging and it is not your place to judge. Saying suicide is selfish or cowardly makes you sound like a DBag.

Pope said it in not so many words. I agree.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 12:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
all he has offered is pity upon those who suffer without resolution to the causes of thier suffering.

What makes you think he has an answer to end human suffering? What he has said helps us not to pile MORE suffering on those who already are pushed to their limits with suffering. And that's a good thing.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 12:56 PM
link   

Originally posted by namehere
certainly lamenting and praying for death isn't a sin or whatever but to act on it and killing yourself is an act of weakness, it's wrong in the sense that there are many struggling to live and lose in the end, yet you think it's so much harder for you so you give up what time you have left, throwing away any opportunities you might've had to enjoy in your time here, running away from life because it hurts and ignoring the good you can have.
life is pain, you can't live or find happiness without it. i think those willing to kill themselves deserve no pity, those who fight to live despite their suffering and those who accept their death yet live to their fullest despite their suffering deserve more compassion.




Physical pain and the "pain of life " are 2 completely different things. It sounds pretty obvious that you've never experienced real physical pain for an extended period of time. I'm not condoning suicide. It's wrong. I'm just saying that you've never experienced pain to the degree that some people have to deal with.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 01:43 PM
link   
reply to post by FlyersFan
 


This is a fundamental shift in dogma for the Catholics. Maybe they can catch up to the times.





new topics

top topics



 
20
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join