Former APA president: I know of ‘hundreds’ of homosexuals who changed their orientation

The Southern Poverty Law Center basically says that 'orientation change therapy' is hokum because sexual orientation is fixed at birth. The Freedom of Conscience Defense Fund says that sexual preference is “fluid” and adaptable to outside influences, including therapy.

Former APA president: I know of ‘hundreds’ of homosexuals who changed their orientation

A renowned psychologist who was a former president of the American Psychological Association (APA) has submitted an affidavit saying that he personally treated over 2,000 homosexuals for various conditions, while his staff counselled thousands more, and he knows of “hundreds” who successfully changed their orientation.

Nicholas Cummings filed the affidavit in support of a motion by JONAH (Jews Offering New Alternatives for Healing) before the New Jersey Superior Court to dismiss a lawsuit filed by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) accusing the group of “fraud” for offering reparative therapy services.

JONAH is a Jewish organization that offers assistance to men and women seeking to resolve their sexual conflicts, focusing specifically on unwanted same-sex attractions.

The thing is ... these 'hundreds of homosexuals who changed their orientation' were in therapy because they were unhappy with their orientation and wanted to change. So I question if they were really homosexual to begin with.

I agree that orientation if fixed at birth. But I also agree that sexual attraction (not orientation) is fluid and that, due to situations or exposures, people can be attracted sexually to others that their original orientation didn't attract them to.

Psychologists and medical professionals don't understand all there is to this yet. So what we know today, could be wrong tomorrow. The facts in this area is still being discovered. Anyways .. I thought this was an interesting story and would be something interesting to discuss ...

Good thread.

Only 2 lesbians that I grew up with are true lesbians. I know of a few women that claimed to be lesbian and only dated other women and acted repulsed by men. They now either have children or are happily married with a man or both.

When he publishes a statement saying "I KNOW hundreds of homosexuals who have changed their sexual orientation" I may be a TINY bit more inclined to listen but to say "I know OF hundreds...." means nothing!

reply to post by FlyersFan


Maybe those who "changed" their sexuality are actually bisexual or are simply "passing" for straight, hoping to be accepted and loved.

I think affidavits from those "hundreds of people" would be much more enlightening than this one man's statement. Following their lives for years would also be helpful. Are they sneaking out to have affairs with same sex partners, as many gays who are "passing" do?

I think they way they talk of changing sexuality as "reparative" and "healing" is telling...

SPLC needs to be a bit more open minded and less bigoted- so what if people say they are no longer homosexual, this should offend no one, anymore than someone saying they are ay should offend someone

I wonder how they concluded that they turned them straight?

"The hardon has stopped erecting when one is pooing, gayism has faded, hoorah "

On a real though, some people can;t just switch off been attracted to the same sex, I know some can - them 'I'm not gay, just greedy' type of people.

This man didn't turn a true gay person, he helped somebody get over their sexual desire to # anything when they can, no matter what sex they are.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Yep. And like I said ... if they were in 'therapy' because they were unhappy with their sexual orientation, then I would think that they may not even be homosexual to begin with. So I don't think this statement of his is scientific at all. Interesting ... sure. But it shouldn't be used as ammo to say that homosexuals SHOULD change etc etc ...

reply to post by Credenceskynyrd

Thats interesting ... you think the Southern Poverty Law Center is biased in this instance? That they are the ones who are biased against facts that are (allegedly) coming out that homosexuality can be changed? I really hadn't thought that. Okay .. that's possible ... (anything is possible) ... interesting input, Credenceskynyrd.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I think I have to agree with you based on this, a 66 year old man from Hong Kong went to the doctor for stomach pains and discovered he was actually a woman. Don't ask me how this happens but presumably it did. Now this woman who lived life as a man was probably attracted to women without actually knowing she should have been more attracted to men. I wonder how much is a cultural choice? I also know of men who were homosexual but remained married to women and even have children. Often they will return to a homosexual lifestyle after their first marriage dissolves. I wonder if this is them denying their first choice in favor of what society might deem appropriate? Here is the link to the story I mention above, www.nydailynews.com...

reply to post by FlyersFan


His statement actually goes against all the research I have seen. Conversion therapy has been shown to be ineffectual at best. At worst it has been shown to lead to psychological disorders.

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
At worst it has been shown to lead to psychological disorders.

I am not surprised. If someone is being 'guilted' into denying their sexual orientation, I wouldn't be surprised at all that it would cause other syndroms or disorders. Heck ... organized religion uses guilt and I have no doubt that there are many disorders out there from the guilt some of those groups push on the faithful.

Good point Xcalibur254

I went to read the actual affidavit and here is how it's worded, which I find very interesting.

Of the approximate 18,000 gay and lesbian patients that we treated through Kaiser in San Francisco, I estimate that about 67% had satisfactory outcomes. The majority of these patients were able to attain a happier and more stable homosexual lifestyle. Of the patients who had sought to change their sexual orientation, hundreds were successful. The remaining one third of patients had unsuccessful therapeutic outcomes, including continued promiscuity, unhappiness, drug addiction, etc.

What I find interesting about this is that of those who sought to change their sexual orientation, some did, and the rest were still promiscuous, unhappy and addicted to drugs... It doesn't sound to me as though homosexuality was the main "problem" these people had. Promiscuity, unhappiness and drug addiction are secondary issues and should not be equated with being homosexual.

I just found that a VERY odd observance to make.

Secondly, the hundreds that were successful in changing their orientation could very well have been observing a temporary outcome, as the majority of "conversion therapy" does.

The best-quality studies were more recent and qualitative, the APA task force found, meaning they focused not on the statistical effectiveness of treatment, but of the subjective experience.

"These studies show that enduring change to an individual's sexual orientation is uncommon," the task force wrote in their 2009 report. The participants continued to report same-sex attractions after the conversion therapy, and were not significantly more attracted to the opposite gender.

These studies did find that conversion therapy could be harmful, however. Negative effects included "loss of sexual feeling, depression, suicidality and anxiety."

5 Surprising Facts about Conversion Therapy

I saw a Lisa Ling: Our America special called "Pray the Gay Away" and it's clear to me that if a person is gay, he's gay, whether or not he wants to be...

Originally posted by wiser3
When he publishes a statement saying "I KNOW hundreds of homosexuals who have changed their sexual orientation" I may be a TINY bit more inclined to listen but to say "I know OF hundreds...." means nothing!

Likely many were teens or others that needed to look st8 for personal/family reasons or were BI and have just hid there gay side again.

I know of many that hide there sexual orientation for job or other reasons.
Many have a 50 or 100 mile rule and if they are in the area where they live they would never admit to being gay or Bi.

Some BIs even have to hide from the gay community because they will be outed by gays that claim there is no such thing as BI sexual's

reply to post by ANNED


One doesn't need to go through conversion therapy to hide the fact that you are gay! You just hide it!

Why would anyone put themselves through what cannot be a pleasant course of "conversion' if they can just pretend to be straight?

Hmmm,

Exodus ministries much in this claim????

If you hate yourself and believe that God hates you enough too, you can talk yourself into a lot of things you know

I had the good fortune of meeting and spending time with Felix Donelly when I came out. He explained to me that sexuality is quite complex and that one of his beliefs is that around mid life (the 40's) some people go through a change in their sexuality at this time. So in their 40's a person who has been straight can turn gay and vice versa.

He is a very fascinating man, being a priest and all and one of the most honest, compassionate and open people I have ever met.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Excellent info. I think that says a lot. And I agree with you about the 'other issues' thing.
It looks like this APA president is perhaps a bit myopic.

reply to post by FlyersFan


We see this frequently -- groups saying that they've successfully "cured" homosexuality, only to find that followup studies done a decade or more later show that they haven't. And it's not for lack of trying on the patient's part. The Reverend Mel White documents what he did to try and "cure" being gay, including some intensive electroshock therapy and social therapy, etc.

I think that you could no more "cure" my daughter of being gay than you could "cure" me of being straight.

Firstly, my apologies for the rather disjointed and hasty post I put up earlier.

Let me explain a little more clearly what I was trying to say;

Homosexual conversion treatments would be better labelled homosexual aversion treatments. They play the very dangerous game of channeling the self hate and disgust into trying to feel sexual attraction to the opposite gender. i.e. if I am a male and feel attraction to a male, I must severely punish myself for it because it is an abomination to God or society etc. By (mostly pretending to) having attraction to females, I am undoing some of the damage I am doing to God, and / or society.

Every single one of these 'cured' people still talk of having attraction to the same sex. The big difference is that they view this attraction as an abomination and beat themselves up for it.

Here is one such story of a person who is working with Exodus ministries, he really believes he is doing the right thing because he was raised in the faith ;

Ethan Martin

The big danger is that it leads to a potent and deadly cocktail of self hate that leads to severe mental illness (despression etc) and even suicide

www.examiner.com...

reply to post by FlyersFan


Sure, some people may go through 'phases' - but I'd suggest that the majority of those who 'changed their orientatiton' did so as a result of some attempt to fit into society and it's accepted norm's.
Whether we like it or not we are conditioned to various degrees by our environment and the society we live in.

I wonder how prevalent bisexuality really is?

I wonder how many heterosexuals have latent or surpressed homosexual or bisexual tendencies?

I really don't get some people's obsession with other people's sex lives and sexuality.

As long as it's consenting adults who really cares what other people are doing?