Islam: What the West Needs to Know-Rebuttal

This is the rebuttal to a recent thread and full credit to Mekhanics for posting it in the thread. I just thought it would be better to have a new thread.
So here's the link
Rebuttal

Mr. Serge Trifkovic rhetorically asks:
“Explain the continuity of violence
from the earliest day of Islam, from the
earliest days of the prophet and his
immediate successors throughout the
13 centuries of recorded history.” Answer: Dear Sir, from the earliest day
of Islam and the earliest days of the
exalted prophet and his noble
companions, five of whom were his
immediate successors, the
Commandment has been, “Hold back your hands” unless war is imposed
upon you. [4:77] Fighting was allowed only in self-
defense. 2:190 Fight in the cause of God those
who wage war against you, but do
not commit aggression. God does not
love aggressors. Every single battle the exalted prophet
fought along with his noble
companions, again, five of whom were
his immediate successors, was in self-
defense. The fact that they were
fought around Madinah is sufficient proof of the defensive nature of these
battles. The most famous Battles of
Badr, Uhud, Ahzab, all took place
around Madinah. Who attacked the
peaceful and progressive State of
Madinah? The Battle of Hunain is the only exception of distance, but then
the exalted prophet and his
companions were peacefully returning
from Makkah in AH 8 (629 CE) and two
tribes (Hawaazan and Thaqeef)
unexpectedly attacked them only to get miserably defeated. For the greatest benevolent
Revolution in all history, in all the
battles, the loss of life was minimal
with 259 Muslims and 759 opponents
getting slain, a total of 1,018. Not a
single non-combatant, a child, a woman or the elderly was ever killed
or harmed by Muslims. 13 Centuries? Sufficient it is to think of
the greatest ever wars, WWI & WWII,
fought in the Name of God between
nations that called themselves
Christian. Also, think of the longest
ever HUNDRED YEARS WAR (French: Guerre de Cent Ans) which in fact
lasted 116 years from 1337 to 1453
between France and Britain. Edward Gibbon - History of The Decline
and Fall of the Roman Empire London
1788: …. The greatest crime, the greatest
“sin” of Mohammad in the eyes of the
Christian West is that he did not allow
himself to be slaughtered, to be
“crucified” by his enemies. He only
defended himself, his family and his followers; and finally vanquished his
enemies. Mohammad’s success is the
Christians’ gall of disappointment ….
He did not believe in any vicarious
sacrifices for the sins of others.

you should/may read the whole article to know more.
Again thanks to Mekhanics

The video that the thread was based on was made by well known racist, liars and Islamophobes. You may want to give a link to the thread you are rebutting.

reply to post by buster2010

Here's the link to the thread being rebutted
Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)
Do you have the breakdown of all the producers and speakers?

I think I've heard of that Spencer guy of jihadwatch

ROBERT SPENCER is the director of Jihad Watch, a program of the David Horowitz Freedom Center
. . .
Spencer has led seminars on Islam and jihad for the United States Central Command, United States Army Command and General Staff College, the U.S. Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, the FBI, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, and the U.S. intelligence community.

Spencer is the Associate Director of the American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI).
Robert Spencer

reply to post by pthena


reply to post by buster2010


thanks buster for the suggestion and thanks pthena for giving the link.

There is a small description of each speaker in the rebuttal article.

Here's some information about another speaker.

The paper described Shoebat as a self- proclaimed “former Islamic terrorist” who said that Islam was a “satanic cult” and who told the crowd how he eventually accepted Jesus into his heart. However, Shoebat’s claim to have bombed Bank Leumi in Bethlehem is rejected by members of his family who still live in the area, and Bank Leumi says it has no record of such an attack ever taking place. His relatives, members of the Shoebat family, are mystified by the notion of “Walid Shoebat” being an assumed name. And the Walid Shoebat Foundation’s working process is less than transparent, with Shoebat’s claim that it is registered as a charity in the state of Pennsylvania being denied by the Pennsylvania State Attorney’s Office.

reply to post by logical7

I became a little confused about Walid Shoebat, because in some parts of the film he spoke of time in the United States. He doesn't seem so very old to have spent much time in Palestine and in the United States both.

His statement here:

Walid Shoebat: Well, Muhammad, the prophet of Islam wiped out all the Jews of Saudi Arabia. There were three tribes, Banu Nuzair, Banu Quraizah and Banu Qainqa’. He ordered the beheading of the Jews of Banu Quraizah and the women being taken concubines. As soon as a child had pubic hair, he was beheaded. The Jewish population was either extradited or beheaded. The story of Rabi’ah Qanina is well recorded. Qanina was tortured by the order of the prophet himself. His eyes were put out. He was burned in order to confess where the Jewish Tribes were hiding their goods, their gold and silver, any kind of things. This is right from the Hadith. This inspired us as Palestinians on fighting Jihad against the Jews in Palestine.
REBUTTAL - 5

Did he go through the school system in Palestine? When did he hear this story?

reply to post by pthena


he is a big fat liar. He claims he was let go by the israelis after he bombed a bank because he was an american citizen
if that is true then hope this information never reaches the terrorist groups or they'l use americans only for bombing missions

he is putting a nice spin on history to spread misinformation and hatred. Palastinians are fighting because their land is being snatched from them not because the hate jews as a religious obligation!
The tribes that were extradicated and a tribe of jews that was dealt with by punishing them with their lives was due to some acts they did, not because of dislike!
The tribe had a peace treaty with muslims and muslims were seiged by pagans during the battle of trenches. The pagans could not cross the trenches and it was a stalemate.

The jewish tribe made a pact with pagans to attack the muslims unaware from behind to give pagans time to cross over. It was a betrayal that could exterminate muslims if it would have happened. A sandstorm made the pagans back out but the jewish tribe had to be dealt with strictly, other uncopertative tribes before were allowed to leave but this was not a light betrayal and so all the fighters were killed according to the punishment prescribed in the Torah for betraying an ally and neighour in battle. No kid was killed neither anyone waited for pubic hair to grow to kill a lad, thats walid shoebat's personal touch to make his story more shocking to ignorant listeners!

One of the most troubling parts of the film to me had to do with Surah 9, in my Qur'an, titled "Repentance"

Mr. Walid Shoebat: The peaceful verses became Mansookha, means “made null and void” with verses like verses of the sword.

Mr. Robert Spencer: Traditional Islamic theology has it that the 9th chapter of the Qur’an, Surah 9, is the last revealed in the career of the Prophet, and it is the only one that doesn’t begin with “Bismillahirrahmanirraheem”, In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful. Some have said that’s because there is no compassion or mercy in this particular chapter. And that it is the Qur’an’s last word on jihad and in particular on how Muslims should behave toward unbelievers. In it is the celebrated verse of the sword.

Answer: Dear Sirs, we have already dealt with the questions on abrogation, chronology and the so-called verse of the sword.
REBUTTAL - 11 by Dr. Shabbir

I don't think Dr. Shabbir has successfully rebutted these points made in the film.

I've got The Qur'an: A New Translation by Tarif Khalidi.

A decree of repudiation[does that mean abrogation, or cancel of treaty?], from God and His Messenger, as regards your compact with the polytheists:
. . .
God is quit of the polytheists, as is His Messenger. ...And announce to the unbelievers a torment most painful. Except for those among the polytheists with whom you have a compact, and who never let you down, ...with whom you are to fulfil your compact until their appointed term....

Once the sacred months are shorn, kill the polytheists wherever you find them...If they repent, ...let them go on their way [to exile?]...If a polytheist seeks your protection, grant him protection until he hears the speech of God, then escort him to where he feels safe. [again, exile?]

Am I to conclude that since I've already read Qur'an and yet am no Muslim, that I am due no protection at all? Is exile from all Muslim lands all that I can ever expect?

reply to post by pthena

Am I to conclude that since I've
already read Qur'an and yet am no
Muslim, that I am due no protection at
all? Is exile from all Muslim lands all
that I can ever expect?

www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/9/index.html

1. A clear declaration was made
that all the treaties with the
mushriks were abolished and
the Muslims would be released
from the treaty obligations with
them after a respite of four months.(vv. 1-3). This
declaration was necessary for
uprooting completely the
system of life based on shirk
and to make Arabia exclusively
the center of Islam so that it should not in any way interfere
with the spirit of Islam nor
become an internal danger for
it.
2. A decree was issued that the
guardianship of the Ka`abah,
which held central position in
all the affairs of Arabia, should
be wrested from the mushriks
and placed permanently in the hands of the Believers, (vv.
12-18) that all the customs and
practices of the shirk of the era
of 'ignorance' should be
forcibly abolished: that the
mushriks should not be allowed even to come near the
"House" (v. 28). This was to
eradicate every trace of shirk
from the "House" that was
dedicated exclusively to the
worship of Allah.

It applied to Arabia not to all lands.
I also don't know if you are a "mushrik" someone who associate others(shirk) in divinity with God.

Also this

[9:7-8] How shall a treaty with these
mushriks be regarded as abiding by
Allah and His Messenger? -excepting
those with whom you made a treaty at the Masjid-i-Haram: so long as they behave rightly with you, you also
should behave rightly with them, for
Allah loves the righteous people.-But
how can a treaty be regarded as
abiding with the other mushriks? Since
if they get power over you, they will not respect ties of kindred with you
nor honor any treaty obligations. They
try to conciliate you with their
tongues, while their hearts are averse to their tongues, for most of them are evil-doers.

reply to post by logical7

There seems to be a lot of prejudice in Surah 9, the assumption that polytheists will automatically turn against Muslims at every opportunity. I don't have numbers for each verse, only numbers for paragraphs in my translation.

2. A decree was issued that the guardianship of the Ka`abah, which held central position in all the affairs of Arabia, should be wrested from the mushriks and placed permanently in the hands of the Believers, (vv. 12-18) that all the customs and practices of the shirk of the era of 'ignorance' should be forcibly abolished: that the mushriks should not be allowed even to come near the "House" (v. 28). This was to eradicate every trace of shirk from the "House" that was dedicated exclusively to the worship of Allah.
Problems of the Period 1. 2.

Around verse 18 of the Surah, it seems that polytheists were actually providing water to pilgrims and doing upkeep for the mosque, yet they also got fired from their jobs and driven away based upon the assumption that they would deal falsely. Isn't that prejudice?

It applied to Arabia not to all lands.

So what is the boundary for Muslim lands? An army of 3000 went into Syria to punish the Romans. Is there a boundary? Or is the documentary correct in stating that the whole World is the envisioned territory?

reply to post by pthena


The pagans were providing water from the zam zam well thats near The Kaaba.
They would also force pilgrims to circumambulate around the Kaaba in new clothes sold by them otherwise naked.
They were the guardians of the "House" and allowed idolatory, all this was stopped by Islam.

There is a specific boundary around Makkah inside which non-muslims can't enter or live.
Outside that, its fine.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by buster2010

 

Here's the link to the thread being rebutted
Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)
Do you have the breakdown of all the producers and speakers?

I think I've heard of that Spencer guy of jihadwatch

edit on 9-6-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

ROBERT SPENCER is the director of Jihad Watch, a program of the David Horowitz Freedom Center
. . .
Spencer has led seminars on Islam and jihad for the United States Central Command, United States Army Command and General Staff College, the U.S. Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, the FBI, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, and the U.S. intelligence community.

Spencer is the Associate Director of the American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI).
Robert Spencer

edit on 9-6-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

Here is some more info.

Originally posted by buster2010
Robert Spencer this man has made his living whining about Islam.

Spencer co-founded Stop Islamization of America (SIOA) and the Freedom Defense Initiative (FDI) with Pamela Geller in 2010. Both organizations are designated as hate groups by the Anti-defamation league and the Southern Poverty Law Center.

You know you have a problem when Jewish organizations starts pointing your antisemitism towards Muslims.

In the Summer 2011 issue of Intelligence Report, published by the SPLC, Robert Steinback listed Spencer as a member of the "anti-Muslim inner circle", noting that "Spencer has been known to fraternize with European racists and neo-fascists, though he says such contacts were merely incidental.

Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) called Spencer and Geller American anti-Muslim writers because their writings "promote a conspiratorial anti-Muslim agenda under the pretext of fighting radical Islam. This belief system parallels the creation of an ideological — and far more deadly — form of anti-Semitism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries." He continued, "we must always be wary of those whose love for the Jewish people is born out of hatred of Muslims or Arabs."
In an October 2010 news article, an investigative report by The Tennessean described Spencer as one of several individuals who "...cash in on spreading hate and fear about Islam." Tennessean investigation concluded "IRS filings from 2008 show that Robert Spencer earned $132,537 from the David Horowitz Freedom Center, and Horowitz pocketed over $400,000 for himself in just one year".

There is money in spreading hate.

Serge Trifkovic this guy is such a racist that Canada wouldn't even let him in their country.

Bat Ye’or

is not a scholar; she does not have the credentials of a historian from any recognized university. She is referred to as an “independent researcher,” a euphemism for a random person who goes to the library, opens up some books, and starts writing.

Bat Ye’or: Anti-Muslim Loon with a Crazy Conspiracy Theory Named “Eurabia”

Walid Shoebat

CNN’s Jerusalem bureau went to great lengths trying to verify Shoebat’s story. The Tel Aviv headquarters of Bank Leumi had no record of a firebombing at its now-demolished Bethlehem branch. Israeli police had no record of the bombing, and the prison where Shoebat says he was held “for a few weeks” for inciting anti-Israel demonstrations says it has no record of him being incarcerated there either.

He said his own family has vouched for his prison time. But relatives CNN spoke to described him as a “regular kid” who left home at 18, eventually becoming a computer programmer in the United States.

“Now, we aren’t saying every single mosque is potential terrorist headquarters. But if you look at certain reports by the Hudson report, 80 percent of mosques they found pamphlets and education on jihad. So they’re in the mosque, the mosque in accordance to the Muslim brotherhood is the command post and center.” The conservative Hudson Institute said it never issued such a report and has no idea why its name was invoked.

Congrats OP you found and posted a video about Islam that was made by well known racist, lairs and Islamophobes good job.

reply to post by buster2010

Thanks buster,

Spencer is an associate of Pam Geller, and the rest are "paid experts"

reply to post by buster2010

And you know what, buster? You didn't respond at all to me when I said that I REALIZED, via the help of other members' links (like yours), that the film WAS propaganda.

You didn't give me credit for that at all. The only one of the opposition who did was logical7, who then turned around and failed to address the issues of educating ALL Muslims to "real Islam" or present solutions to the infighting and for Islam to take due accountability for the problems WITHIN the global Muslim community.

Therefore, we are back at square one. I also said that I am currently reading Jeremy Scahill's latest huge volume Dirty Wars on the Special Ops agenda of Bush and Rumsfeld, and I have PLACED BLAME SQUARELY on those nefarious activities.

I am quite well aware of the "New Apostolic Dominionist" agenda, and I see that the film was a tool of theirs. - I have made a CRITICAL thread on THEM as well here.

ALL SIDES are to blame. The Zionist Christian warmongers, the government warmongers, the deal-making among world leaders, and the failure of Islam to ensure that their diaspora are ALL literate, educated, and peaceful -- ALL have resulted in massive slaughters on every side - and ALL of them are WRONG.

But no one seems to notice when I say that.

I look at ALL INFORMATION for answers, and am routinely met with backlash as being a bigot, which is not the case.

reply to post by wildtimes

ALL SIDES are to blame. The Zionist Christian warmongers

You know ? I have discovered one new sect.

There are Zionist Christian who don't know they are Zionist Christian.

But they have been always doing what it is necessary to defend Zionism.

And they say they are not religious , but they attack Islam in the same time.

All the attempts to help them know Islam will fail because they want to know Islam the way they want.

As soon as they are exposed to the dark side of the truth behind the actions of their government they put fingers in their ears.

As soon as they are going to learn that Islam is not what their govt tells them nor what some people do , they put fingers in their ears.

They think they are alternative , but they are the alternative that the same MSM wants them to be.

They believe that they have the right to kill other people in numbers and in the end , even if they were wrong , Christ will wash their sins.

And they always think that all these actions are not serious and their bigotry will be covered.

I do believe that they ar same version of Al-Qaeda and Wahhabism being born in somewhere else.

If Mohammed oversaw the beheading of 700 people, then I have no respect for him, sorry.

reply to post by mideast


THANK YOU MIDEAST!!!

As soon as I first found about the New Apostolic Reformation, I brought it here for all to see. My efforts are NOT to condemn any one group of people in a generalized way. I believe I have done due diligence in providing 'exposure' of the negative actions and intentions of ALL "groups" of people that I'm learning about. I dissected "Christianity" first, as I was brought up in that vein of "faith" - which I have since left behind. Now I am trying to get to the bottom of Islam - and after this I will no doubt explore Judaism beyond what very superficial understanding I have of it. I know Buddhism "fairly well" from former studies, but am not versed in Hindu lore and tradition yet, but I'm working on it.

I've said before, and will repeat here:

The simple, broad categories of "Jew, Christian, and Muslim" are no longer adequate for global understanding. The three have all dissolved into chaotic infighting among various sects ALL claiming "truth" is theirs exclusively.

We need new "common vocabulary" to tell all the different factions apart. Those who denounce ALL sects as "not real" in their particular faith are dangerous, in my opinion. Those "Real Christians" that do not identify with any one denomination are frequently promoting the Zionist aggressive types that want "war."