What do masons think and how do they feel about Intelligent Design?

reply to post by Skyfloating


You should talk...

Not so much a difference when the "Grand Pontiff" is made public.
I have here the feats of the grand pontiff...

I the captivation of the souls of the earth, gift to Elisa, the wife of Michael, thefriend of trees.
II the usurpation of the earth, and the skies above the earth; gift to Elisa, the holy Roman empress.
III the establishment of the new and everlasting covenant and the end of religion.
IV the unification of the blue race and the commence of the holy Roman empire.
V the conversion of the repentant sinners of the blue race, their pledge of allegiance and the song of praise.
VI the exile of the blue race traitors from the holy Roman empire.
VII the excommunication of false idols and their ascendants and descendants.
VIII the extinction of the enemy tribe, and the example of them put forth to the world.
IX the expulsion of the infidels from the holy Roman empire.
X the example of the slave race perpetually bound to the holy Roman empire.
XI to drink of the "Cup of the Lord our God", our precious Elisa, empress of the Holy Roman Empire.

The feats gleamed from the manuscript of the AASR of the Freemasons.
Circa June 2012.

reply to post by Pinocchio


The Freemason Of The Ancient And Accepted Order Are Involved In The Conspiracy To Take Over The Earth.
The Will Become The Holy Roman Empire.
Elisa is latin for Alice.
The pontiff is the Hookah Smoking Caterpillar. He awaits her call.
BEWARE PPL! BEWARE!

If you apply some logic to the idea of creation one adult man and woman as well as every other species on the planet at some point in time had to be made or placed here. And that still doesn't explain completely the various races of people we have. I personally believe all the races were originally placed here and not that the entire human populace has come from Adam and Eve. I've also read various explanations of how races developed their characteristics based on the location they lived in and the temperature but don't buy into that theory too much.

The young could never have raised themselves without a mothers milk. Two male and female adults of every species had to begin the cycle at some point in time but how? Things don't just happen by themselves.

Originally posted by Saurus

Evolution is creation over time. Time is man made. God, being infinite, does not follow the rules of time like we do. Why then, is the time of the creation such an issue to men. Animals (dinosaurs ) were there before man in Genesis too, no? Does the bible specify HOW God created things? Have you ever considered that perhaps God did not click His fingers to make trees and plants, but instead commanded the earth to produce them. The precise methods of his creation are not described.

In answer to your question, What do Masons think of the creation - we are fully aware that we cannot know the whole nature of God nor how He thinks, but we are charged to think about it, examine all possibilities, and make a conclusion - each Mason for himself - which will ultimately affect that Mason's behavior in a good way and make thereby make a positive change in the world. And, since all the world may just be in his likeness, making a positive change in the world is the best way to Glorify God.

edit on 11/6/2013 by Saurus because: (no reason given)

These are my thoughts exactly.

There's no reason why "Intelligent Design" and evolution can't coexist, and the paragraph above very effectively explains why.

I believe that the word or concept that we have translated into the word "days" in the Bible, might not mean actual 24-hour periods, but "periods of time". The 7 days of creation wasn't necessarily a week as we know it, but could instead have been seven "periods of time", or seven "ages" of undetermined length. And I also believe that the concept wasn't uniform - the concept of "40 days and 40 nights", which occurs a number of times in the Bible, didn't necessarily mean "1.25 months", or "5 times the length of time it took to create the world", but simply meant "a really long time".

Evolution is a fact - we have actually seen mutations occur, and the resultant "mutants" be better equipped for survival than their parents. If that "improvement" is passed on and propagated, that animal will necessarily be more successful, and either the animals of the "old" design will be unable to compete and die off, or there will be a new subspecies created. If the mutation doesn't get passed on, so be it. Evolution is a long process.

I believe, as was stated by Saurus above, that evolution is "creation over time". In other words, its possible that the animals, plants, and even man that we know today weren't created in an instant in their current state, but to have developed over time, with many "prototypes" and imperfect iterations falling by the wayside. If you're not one who believes the geological fossil record is false or "put here by Satan to fool us", then you can see that the fossil record conclusively shows the slow changes over time.

Originally posted by Voyager1
If you apply some logic to the idea of creation one adult man and woman as well as every other species on the planet at some point in time had to be made or placed here. And that still doesn't explain completely the various races of people we have. I personally believe all the races were originally placed here and not that the entire human populace has come from Adam and Eve. I've also read various explanations of how races developed their characteristics based on the location they lived in and the temperature but don't buy into that theory too much.

The young could never have raised themselves without a mothers milk. Two male and female adults of every species had to begin the cycle at some point in time but how? Things don't just happen by themselves.

See, that's the thing. They didn't HAVE to have been placed here. Each of those plants, animals and men could have evolved as separate mutations over a loooong period of time - billions of years. Those mutated animals fed from their mother's milk. As each herd or tribe migrated to fill the world, again, more mutations occurred, and those whose mutations made them better competitors survived, and the others didn't. We have seen this occur in our lifetimes, albeit on a small scale.

That's not to say God didn't cause those mutations to start, or that he doesn't "guide" them...

Now, if you want to speak from the Biblical sense, it says God created Adam and Eve first, but it doesn't say that he didn't later create other couples, or populate other places. After all, who did Cain and Seth marry, their sisters?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
What I think? Im tired of Atheists and Christians peddling the same polarizations over and over even though Intelligent Design and Evolution are easily compatible. I`m also tired of secular-leftists and fundamentalist-right-wingers continually forcing their views into the public arena. Keep your wars private, we don't need them.

Actually I've put forth the case of intelligent design in the earth-moon-sun system/configuration and relationship as the "first cause" and the framework by which life has evolved on earth, by design. It's not a standard creationist model, but simply an investigation into the phenomenal world to see if there are design elements present, and there are, even to the degree that we were intended to recognize them. Don't assume because of my avatar, or the response of people with an atheist bias and an ax to grind, that it's not a valid line of inquiry with some rather startling observations.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
What I think? Im tired of Atheists and Christians peddling the same polarizations over and over even though Intelligent Design and Evolution are easily compatible. I`m also tired of secular-leftists and fundamentalist-right-wingers continually forcing their views into the public arena. Keep your wars private, we don't need them.

Please try to understand that I've simply been researching and presenting based on the data-set we're given regarding the unique and particular moon-earth-sun configuration, as the "first cause" and the very framework by which evolution has taken place, including that of man, with the analysis suggesting, in no uncertain terms that it was by no means a chance occurrence or a "fluke" coincidence but by-design and thus intended by anticipation from the first causes of first causes and if that weren't enough, done in such a way that we ourselves as observers would recognize the design, including the allegory it appears to describe in regards to the divine order and man as a reflection of the image of the Godhead or GAOTU. Please bear in mind that the only reason the thread appear to be a "warring" thread is because of the unfortunately and ill-conceived title of the thread, and that as a result it's been pounced on by strong atheists and by strong I don't necessarily mean intellectually superior in their evaluation of the data itself.

You see, if people were given to examine the data and conclude that we really are children of a loving and very generous God who's aim it appears to be to enjoy a shared experience or for us and "we", then that would really be something if we were to better understand our place in God's creation, and that's the overarching intent, not at all what you've assumed just by reading the title of this thread, which also might be somewhat ill-conceived except that mine was a genuine inquiry, not a "challenge" per se.

The response however is surprising imho.

For this inquiry, responses have included outright ridicule, a type of denial of the intended message and allegory embedded into the design and intended for man's own recognition as observer, whose interpretation needn't be construed as arrogant or solipsistic or narcissistic at all ie: in relation to any and all alien races or civilizations that might exist, to in your case, anger and outrage based on assumptions.

But I'm asking something else in my query, and yes I am quite surprised at the reactions and responses so far since this seemed to me to be very much applicable to masonic thought about our place in the cosmos as children of God.

I'll have to come back and offer some of the data, so that you can see what I'm driving at here and what a wonderful thing it is to see and recognize clearly, because the message can't be any clearer from what I can see, and it's right in our face, not secret, but spoken right through the creation revealing intentionality and infinite intelligence.

reply to post by buddhasystem


The masons have also been known to work in mysterious way. Assimilating themselves into a communities mainstream religion as a way to make themselves look better and and have a better chance to gain public office and enforce the collectives goals... just a thought.

reply to post by lucifer6

that's totally off topic, this isn't about the "evil" luciferian Masonic conspiracy, but simply to try to discern if they even believe (or have knowledge) in the things they feel are so sacrosanct that they cannot be shared with non-Masons. Would they turn away and turn a blind eye if God himself employed his own creation to present, without reservation, or secrecy, an allegory intended for none other than man?

Maybe they don't really believe in a Supreme Being or the GAOTU (Grand Architect of the Universe)? Thus, what would they do and how would they respond to actually see such an allegory embedded by design into the local creation even the very one by which man has come to be, not by accident or fluke however, but by intent and with anticipation.

The responses so far and the lack of response to this thread is unusual. Should I have used a capital M for Mason in the title, maybe that's where I erred..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I have one question. If nothing nefarious goes on within the free masons as a whole then why, all the secrecy. If all you do is promote good and give stability and better yourself then why all the smoke and mirrors why is the inner workings never talked about. In the words of many many masons, if you have nothing to hid then you have nothing to worry about. What degree of knowledge are you, under what rites were you initiated. If they are good as a whole then what is with all the esoteric symbols and decor. I understand why you needed so much secrecy back in 1776, you had plans to toppl two monarcy;s and infiltrate the church of rome, as a result 60% of the world who were being oppressed by the crowns and the church succeeded with reaffirming roman law into masonic installed first republics. Then your organization picked up where they left off, and as a result we are on pace to be less free then when we were under THEIR OPPRESSION.

Can you explain that

reply to post by lucifer6


Sure I can and I'm not even a Mason. The symbols and allegories of the initiatory rites are richly nuanced and deep, to the degree that to try to TELL someone what it means ruins the enlightenment and debases things that are intended to evoke wonderment, awe and a deep comprehension and understanding, which even when they "get it" is something that's going to be "personal" based on each person's own unique spiritual experience, so there's also issues of integrity, part of which is the ability to keep an oath, even though Jesus did advise against making oaths and covenants (swearing by). And even if they tried to explain it all, people wouldn't "get it" anyway, that's certainly what I'm finding with this intelligent design exposition. The only thing that "spooks" me to a degree is the checkered floor (foundation) representing the duality of good and evil, which is a flawed paradigm and does not represent the key to "knowledge" nor the pathway to goodness and righteousness. The only other flaw that I can see is the idea that one can somehow engineer their own salvation, when what we need to use an Egyptian analogy is a "towrope from heaven" to pull us out of the pit of ignorance, and even death, in resurrection. The idea also of the "worshipful master" sitting in the place of the sun while wearing a hat with horns, that's a little disconcerting I must say, but then again I don't have all the information not being a Mason myself, but never were we intended to be a stand-in for God but only to be in an intimate relationship with God as spirit and truth like Jesus said.

Masons are very found of intelligent design:
making the roof out of stone and putting it up first...then the walls
...not so much

reply to post by Danbones


I wonder if an ancient theodolite is among their (your?) "toolset"..?

What are the axises of a theodolite?

Answer:
Vertical and Horizontal. These are absolutely vital. some have The Horizontal ( latitude or Azimuth) scale given priority - some the Vertical or Altitude scale, but both are essential to a true theodolite - unlike a transit or level instrument no matter how powerful the telescope.

It's also a lens used for surveying in case someone didn't know.

..so that, upon close inspection and careful examination/evaluation, the plainly obvious might be recognized (re-cognized) for what it is, and what it represents and signifies.

It's more than a mere "magnifying glass" used by the likes of Sherlock Holmes because it's positional and relativistic, but with the applications of his deductive reasoning and logic, we then come to quickly see that it is entirely self evident that

“once you eliminate the impossible (random chaos combined with fluke coincidental happenstance in a purposeless and meaningless creation), whatever remains, no matter how improbable (intelligent design of divine origin with infinite intelligence creating purposefully and for a reason, and thus with intent and by anticipation from the origin of creation so that our experience might be possible), must be the truth.”

~ Sir. Arthur Conan Doyle, Sr. (1859-1930) quotes

1. And I saw in those days how long cords were given to those angels, and they took to themselves wings and flew, and they went towards the north.

2. And I asked the angel, saying unto him: 'Why have those (angels) taken these cords and gone off?' And he said unto me: 'They have gone to measure.'

3. And the angel who went with me said unto me:
'These shall bring the measures of the righteous,
And the ropes of the righteous to the righteous,
That they may stay themselves on the name of the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever.

4. The elect shall begin to dwell with the elect,
And those are the measures which shall be given to faith
And which shall strengthen righteousness.

5. And these measures shall reveal all the secrets of the depths of the earth, And those who have been destroyed by the desert.

Book of Enoch, Chapter LXI.

A perfect reflection


Eclipse


Earth-Moon (check THAT out eh!)


Solstice and Perihelion


A living World, phenomenon of man included and not excluded.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


check out the celtic cross
it does it all
www.crichtonmiller.com...

what a theodolite does
what a sextnt does
what a clock does

and more

its why we say to "cross" an ocean
the robot found one in the shaft in the great pyramid right under the sky chart dated 10, 000 BC etc
i betcha it was the secret instrument of the ANCIENT masons

eta
the movie documentary used to be on youtube
" the cross of thoth "


oh yeah
you have to KNEEL at the foot of the cross to take a BEARING on the BEAR ( northstar ) in the ARCtic etc

In case anyone was wondering what that was supposed to reveal, this video might help you to realize what I'm pointing to.


Please just ignore the one part where they refer top the moon's rotation keeping the same face to the earth that's called "tidal locking" and it's not the least bit unusual as there are more than 30 other moons in our solar system that do the same thing relative to their host planet. Quick question: How many planets in our solar system have only one moon? You guessed it. One - Earth.

About Earth

Earth is an ocean planet. Our home world's abundance of water - and life - makes it unique in our solar system. Other planets, plus a few moons, have ice, atmospheres, seasons and even weather, but only on Earth does the whole complicated mix come together in a way that encourages life - and lots of it.

The Moon - A Steady Hand

The Moon is more than a pretty accessory in our night sky. It stabilizes Earth's wobble, which led to a more stable climate and probably helped life evolve. The Moon also guides the ebb and flow of Earth's oceans.

solarsystem.nasa.gov...

"Probably" helped life evolve, that's funny, probably helped out a tad.. lol

reply to post by Danbones

Cool.

The theodolite cross of knowledge in the form of a tool capable of measuring the world including the earth, moon, sun and stars. Imagine being a master mason armed with one of those?! You'd know, with certainty. Know what I've been researching lately, and boy the level of immersed participation in "closing the circle" by the ACT of measuring, and then building on a foundation and cornerstone framed by the cosmos, now that's participation and co-creation employing the key to true understanding and comprehension.

Those Egyptians they had the sacred science down pat, and it was really all about measuring and using universal design principals adopted by an examination of the creation itself, starting with the earth, moon, sun configuration and then extending to the "heavens" with the precession of the equinox, and more.

Do you know if the ancient Egyptians used the "bird" (in many cultures that's how it was associated) of the "Northern Cross"? It, the constellation flaps it's "arms" and in ancient times turned atop the northern horizon. and at one point in ancient times it's brightest star, Deneb, served as the pole star. It intersects the dark rift in the Milky Way Galaxy (heavenly reflection of the Nile) so it was surely well recognized and of great importance to the ancient Egyptians.. this is important to my current "research" project so if you know anything about that pass it along (even Google has it's limits).

reply to post by NewAgeMan

A perfect reflection

No it isn't.
Do you really have to spam ATS with repeats of the same nonsense?

reply to post by Phage

It's almost exactly perfect, and for all due purposes, as a visible reflection by human observation, it is.

Phage do you have to chase me all over the forums? I thought I might find some like-minded folks around here who might have an interest in such things and their implications as regards to intelligent design.

Do you have to stalk me? Really?

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Almost.
Works in horseshoes and nuclear weapons.

Almost just right.