HAARP for DUMMIES

Originally posted by tazdeill2

You don't get understatement, do you?

Yes, I do - what makes you think otherwise?

I don't see why there are so many people on this thread who are contributing little to the point of the thread, but are just locking horns in order to score points....

And you made this post to add one to that number??

Originally posted by totallackey
reply to post by WonderBoi

 

Scientists among you? Where is your SCIENTIFIC PROOF, that HAARP is just a "research facility"? All i've seen, is blah, blah, blah, from you and your crew of "scientists". (LAUGHABLE) I've been rereading this thread, and noticed, you all stick up and "star" each other, to make it seem like you got the facts. But yet, i see no actual information, to back up your claims. You're another person that needs to learn about our invisible world. And, sorry to say, you don't know what HAARP can or can't do. IMO, your word means SQUAT; and neither does the word of our mighty dictators.

Again, time and again, it has been pointed out to you, HAARP does not transmit ELF.

The last video you posted, the man states at approximately 1:00 into the video, "...what seems to be cause and effect."

This is accurate. The man goes on to present subwoofers and a diorama, supposedly demonstrating the effects of ELF on the ground, causing a rock to shift.

Now, even if HAARP did transmit in the ELF range (which it does not), and its antennae were steerable (which they are not, being a fixed array), you stated this earlier...and I have already quoted it once...

Yeah, some of you should DENY IGNORANCE, if you believe HAARP is being used to communicate with submarines, underwater. Sure, they're gonna bounce a signal off of the ionosphere, just so they can send that signal beneath the water. Never mind the transmission that would get lost, throughout the journey. I'm GLAD none of you are "scientists".

SO...follow me closely here...YOU DO NOT BELIEVE an ELF signal can be bounced off the ionosphere to communicate with a submarine...YOU CLAIM the transmission would GET LOST, even though SCIENCE and real-life experience has proven otherwise...

OH NO...you want to believe a video that claims an ELF signal can be bounced off the ionosphere, without signal degradation or loss of energy, in order to cause an earthquake?

Please, for the love of Pete, spare the ATS community any further examples of cognitive dissonance...

At this point he has gotten lost in his own argument. He cannot provide any of the proof that he claims to have, he cannot refute a single thing that I have posted here, and has outright lied about having "military documents that prove HAARP alters the weather." I have no problem with someone believing that HAARP can change the weather; its their delusion, not mine. But the second that they say that there is proof that it does, the people that actually know what they are talking about are here to tear them up.

reply to post by WonderBoi

Yeah, some of you should DENY IGNORANCE

That especially includes the OP.

reply to post by WonderBoi

Where is your SCIENTIFIC PROOF, that HAARP is just a "research facility"?

If someone were to give you the scientific proof you wouldn't understand it anyway, but here are some sites that explain it in an easy way..

www.haarp.alaska.edu...

www.alaskadispatch.com...

I've been rereading this thread, and noticed

What that you still don't understand how HAARP works?

And, sorry to say, you don't know what HAARP can or can't do.

And do you think your in the position to tell someone that?

IMO, your word means SQUAT

Refer to my comment above....

You can't handle the truth.

It is ironic you say that....

Originally posted by WonderBoi
Yeah, some of you should DENY IGNORANCE, if you believe HAARP is being used to communicate with submarines, underwater. Sure, they're gonna bounce a signal off of the ionosphere, just so they can send that signal beneath the water. Never mind the transmission that would get lost, throughout the journey. I'm GLAD none of you are "scientists".

AFAIK HAARP is not and was not used to generate ELF - it was used to study the ionosphere.

ELF transmitters have "aerials" 10's of kilometers long.

Very Low Frequency (3-30kHz) transmissions were used to communicate to submarines in WW2, and het Soviets and US used ELF - the last US facility was dismantled in 2004 - there were 2 transmitters - 1 at Clam Lake Wisconsin, the other at Republic, Michigan.

A summary of the Sanguine/Seafarer project can be read here

Originally posted by tsurfer2000h
reply to post by Bedlam

 

It would have been more interesting to be able to split the array and deliver multiple beams at multiple frequencies or polarizations.

I see a new thread in the works from the HAARP weapon crew...

You know, I probably ought to, but I still have a thread about boundary layer control I've never been able to get back to and flesh out. Maybe I'll hit a break here and get a day to finish that one, then do a 'real' HAARP thread. At least a few of you might find it interesting.

Right now, though, it's off to the salt mines again in about three hours.

Originally posted by totallackey
reply to post by siliconpsychosis

 

I am unsure of the formal name for the device. As Bedlam made note, communication via ELF has become obsolete. Could still be used in case of emergency. Very stable means of communication.

The big problem there is that the transmitters were sold for scrap a few years ago.

You could still use HAARP for that, if the stars are right. Or maybe that satellite constellation could do that too,but I never heard that, and they'd have to use the equatorial electrojet if they did.

Originally posted by Y3K89Atmospheric Plasma sounds like you "Heat" an area (Direct-point) or concentrated area of interest.

Well, that's what HAARP does. It can only manage that in the ionosphere or just below. Too much matter density and you don't have enough power.

Originally posted by supergravity

The haarp cheer leaders on this thread are not lying about traditional methods of transmission systems, but.......

They ARE LEAVING OUT LITTLE KNOWN techniques that Tesla was working on and is the whole reason for the military experimenting on the atmosphere.

You're right - they're 'little known'. Maybe if Tesla comes back he can show us how these magical techniques work.

Originally posted by WonderBoi
First of all, the points i made, like this:

*Steerable Antennae: can aim 3.6 million watts of ELF waves, into one tiny patch in the atmosphere

were points made in the video.

If the video said that, you should immediately discount any other points you got from that video, because that's SO incorrect it should tell you about your source.

HAARP does not emit ELF. Couldn't if you wanted to. ELF isn't steerable, due to the wavelengths involved. And, well, that's also why you can't build an array like HAARP for ELF bands.

Hint - how long does an ELF transmitter antenna need to be? I suggest you look up Sanguine.

Originally posted by spektyr
reply to post by whatzshaken

 

This document may not be proof but it is good food for thought on this issue.

csat.au.af.mil...

Make sure you read the disclaimer. Also, go find out this was a graduation exercise for Air College, and that it wasn't a documentary about current weapon systems - it's a 'what if' that included ROTC cadets and movie directors.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

AFAIK HAARP is not and was not used to generate ELF - it was used to study the ionosphere.

ELF transmitters have "aerials" 10's of kilometers long.

It IS used to study the ionosphere and magnetosphere. But one tool in the bag you need in order to do that is to be able to push particles around up there in clever ways.

A common tool is to generate VLF or ELF in situ and use it to provoke tertiary reactions. I need to sit down with a six pack one day when I'm off and put together a HAARP tech history thread from hell.

But I won't have time tonight, alas. Some starting 'why do you need VLF and ELF to diddle the ionosphere' info - googlescholar Dr Helliwell and Siple Station, which was a starting point for this sort of thing AFAIK. Here is a link to start with.

The doc used wires strung out on Antarctic ice and used VLF directly. HAARP makes ULF, VLF and ELF out of the arctic electrojet by a variety of means, including geometric and density modulation. It does NOT emit 3.6MW of ELF. It can induce the secondary emission of about 30W of ELF out of the electrojet in some modes, if the stars are right. This is about 3-4x what Sanguine and Seafarer could muster. But it's still not much.

Originally posted by siliconpsychosis

didn't they call it the TLA (towed line array) or something?

Well, it went through a couple of iterations.

Subs have towed hydrophone line arrays. That's a different thing.

Early ELF links ALSO used a towed line - not the same one as the sonar - in order to receive the signal. It was pretty limited in the first gen because you need a WHOPPER antenna for ELF to have any chance at all to receive it after the signal loss due to dissipative losses in seawater.

So the next generation used an active towed line array. This wasn't an antenna in the classical sense, they were using an insanely complex but brilliant trick for looking at the e-field slope. I don't have a digitizing pad here, and I generally run to the white board at this point so you'll have to forgive me, I'm not sure I can describe it exactly right. If you look at a wave propagating through space, at point x on the wave the amplitude is y, at point x + delta a bit further down the wave, the amplitude will be y' and so on, matching the oscillations in the e-field component.

Visualize it as taking a jump rope and tying one end to a wall. If I shake the rope so that I get a couple of standing waves in it (that part doesn't translate well, don't overthink it), you can see that for a wave of that frequency, at this point I'd expect the rope to be going up a little, a bit further going up more, a bit further going up a lot, a bit further hitting the peak, a bit further being down some from the peak and so on.

What the smart array did was have little sensors every few inches for the e-field component of the wave, and they all talked together and with the receiver in the sub, and they decided if the electric field each sensor was getting matched the 'profile' of the ELF wave they were wanting to receive. And thus did they pick the signal out of the background noise. THAT worked. It worked pretty well, except the tail was still big, and bulky, and if it failed you had to replace it, and it cost a wad.

The next generation got rid of the towed array altogether and put a pair of SQUIDS in the boat (heh) and detected the h-field component of the ELF wave instead. And that's how they pick up VLF today, also. No array needed.

(edits to remove sloppiness)

Originally posted by winofiend

Originally posted by WonderBoi

Originally posted by tsurfer2000h
reply to post by WonderBoi

 

This is where the debunkers are HIGHLY mistaken.

And so was the premise of this thread...

Not really. Especially, when you consider who's got these weapons. You can believe the guise of 'research' if you want to. Your FREE choice. Others, like myself, tend to believe in an EVIL EMPIRE, hell bent on destroying our planet, and it's inhabitants. All this technology, and our planet is in worse shape than ever!!!!

Ahha! You're the rebel fleet.

Save us WonderBoi, you're our only hope.

We're in good hands.

Can I be Grand Moff Tarkin? Well, the young, roguish version... Guess that'd be back when he was just a Moff.

And I picture Wonderbra as Admiral Akbar or the guy from the trade federation that yelled, "Magnetize! Magnetize!" When the artificial gravity went out on Palpatine's ship.

So... I didn't read every page but have we all agreed and taken a page from ole Rodney King and decided to all "...just get along?" Cuz the first three or four pages were just painful to read...as a kidney stone.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by siliconpsychosis

didn't they call it the TLA (towed line array) or something?

Well, it went through a couple of iterations.

Subs have towed hydrophone line arrays. That's a different thing.

Early ELF links ALSO used a towed line - not the same one as the sonar - in order to receive the signal. It was pretty limited in the first
en because you need a WHOPPER antenna for ELF to have any chance at all to receive it after the signal loss due to dissipative losses in seawater.

So the next generation used an active towed line array. This wasn't an antenna in the classical sense, they were using an insanely complex but brilliant trick for looking at the e-field slope. I don't have a digitizing pad here, and I generally run to the white board at this point so you'll have to forgive me, I'm not sure I can describe it exactly right. If you look at a wave propagating through space, at point x on the wave the amplitude is y, at point x + delta a bit further down the wave, the amplitude will be y' and so on, matching the oscillations in the e-field component.

Visualize it as taking a jump rope and tying one end to a wall. If I shake the rope so that I get a couple of standing waves in it (that part doesn't translate well, don't overthink it), you can see that for a wave of that frequency, at this point I'd expect the rope to be going up a little, a bit further going up more, a bit further going up a lot, a bit further hitting the peak, a bit further being down some from the peak and so on.

What the smart array did was have little sensors every few inches for the e-field component of the wave, and they all talked together and with the receiver in the sub, and they decided if the electric field each sensor was getting matched the 'profile' of the ELF wave they were wanting to receive. And thus did they pick the signal out of the background noise. THAT worked. It worked pretty well, except the tail was still big, and bulky, and if it failed you had to replace it, and it cost a wad.

The next generation got rid of the towed array altogether and put a pair of SQUIDS in the boat (heh) and detected the h-field component of the ELF wave instead. And that's how they pick up VLF today, also. No array needed.

(edits to remove sloppiness)

edit on 9-6-2013 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)

Wow thank you for the detailed explanation. I think I followed you. Let me paraphrase....

If you can detect small pieces of the whole signal you can extrapolate the whole signal using a "what we expect" template?

Originally posted by siliconpsychosis

Wow thank you for the detailed explanation. I think I followed you. Let me paraphrase....

If you can detect small pieces of the whole signal you can extrapolate the whole signal using a "what we expect" template?

Yes, in this case detecting small pieces of the signal is something physical. You look down this array length you're towing, and sort of apply a template of what the ELF wave would look like at various places on the tail. The tail is a very small fraction of the total length of an ELF wave, which makes this a pretty complex task, but they pulled it off with pretty crude electronics compared to today.

It's easier/smaller/quieter to do this looking at the magnetic field component inside the boat with a SQUID, so that's the 'preferred' way these days.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

AFAIK HAARP is not and was not used to generate ELF - it was used to study the ionosphere.

ELF transmitters have "aerials" 10's of kilometers long.

The doc used wires strung out on Antarctic ice and used VLF directly. HAARP makes ULF, VLF and ELF out of the arctic electrojet by a variety of means, including geometric and density modulation. It does NOT emit 3.6MW of ELF. It can induce the secondary emission of about 30W of ELF out of the electrojet in some modes, if the stars are right. This is about 3-4x what Sanguine and Seafarer could muster. But it's still not much.

As I understand/imagine it, it can oscillate its own signal intensity at that frequency, thus inducing a response at that frequency in its target.

But it's output still remains in the kHz range - the intensity/power is ramped up and down 30 times/second.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
As I understand/imagine it, it can oscillate its own signal intensity at that frequency, thus inducing a response at that frequency in its target.

But it's output still remains in the kHz range - the intensity/power is ramped up and down 30 times/second.

Nuh-uh. HAARPs direct output is 2.8-10MHz.

In order to produce ELF, they paint the auroral electrojet with a pattern, altering it in a manner that causes ELF radiation from the electrojet.

One way is with density modulation, where you paint the jet along its length with a ramped power output. The more efficient way is to use geometric modulation, where you rapidly paint a pattern on the jet that causes it to 'wobble'.

All the emission is caused by diddling the electrojet.

ULF output is a different trick, it's even more indirect.

reply to post by Bedlam


MHz, KHz...what's 3 orders of magnitude between friends!!

I'm a network administrator, not an electrical engineer. I do understand the essence of how HAARP works and what it is NOT capable of doing, but some of this detail outside of the HAARP issue is very educating