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It shouldn't matter if you aren't doing anything wrong

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posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 07:12 AM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 


I'm right there with you on this. I find it very worrying that people are not marching on Washington right now. Seriously, there should be anger out there that the US government (and the UK too by the looks of things) has been systematically monitoring its own supposedly free citizens.

Forget the ranting about gun control, this is the real deal, happening right there in front of you, sweeping invasion of privacy and the destruction of basic Human rights, and people are apathetic about it.

I have seen people on the BBC comments saying the same thing - if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about. How about saying if you've done nothing wrong they have NO RIGHT TO MONITOR YOU!?

The biggest bafflement in all of this is that people don't seem to understand that the gathering of massive amounts of data on innocent people has nothing to do with preventing crime or terrorism.

This is how it should go... there is a suspect, they monitor the communications of that suspect, and it leads to other suspects who they also then monitor. This is how we all pretty much believed it was being done, how it should be done, what we would accept as being reasonable. If there is suspicion, then there should be investigation. The gathering of massive amounts of data on people not identified as suspects has NOTHING TO DO with preventing crime and terrorism, nothing at all.

How does the mass gathering and storage of millions of people's information in any way helpful to preventing a miniscule minority of people from acting criminally? It doesn't, there is no way that harvesting such data can be of any use in tracking down or preventing "just the criminals" from acting.

Instead of looking for the needle in the haystack, they've collected up every haystack in the field. But for what purpose? The only explanation I can think of relates to that gigantic new facility they have in Utah, and the Stasi-like "file building" efforts where every citizen has a little folder and everything about them is detailed as and when it arrives.

The only reason I can think of for having such a system is for the manipulation and control of the population at large. This is about absolute power over the citizen. This is about a totalitarian state so terrified of its own population it would lock them all up to remain in power. This is the creation of a digital prison, a virtual cell where you are watched and flagged for having an opinion, or expressing something the government (whichever government that is) doesn't agree with.

When you combine this with everything else they have, such as no-fly lists of politically opinionated people, monitoring and infiltrating of peaceful protest groups, the TSA, the actions of the DHS in quashing Occupy, the monitoring of the Tea Party, the gags on media and reporting, secret courts, Bradley Manning... this is proving that the fears of people concerned about a totalitarian state are real and genuine.

There is no denying that this is bigger than Watergate, bigger than any scandal to have ever come to light, bigger than any conspiracy theory we have seen unravel in the history of the USA. But, people just don't seem to get it at all.

The only bright light we have in the UK right now is MP Kieth Vaz, he has consistently shown himself to be a true voice for the people and for justice. He was quick to get on the BBC and say that there needs to be an investigation into the powers the government has abused, and it seems he might be the only MP willing to demand that something be done.

But what can be done? Does anyone think that an investigation is going to do anything? Even removing our elected will not likely change anything at all, the next guy will do more of the same.
edit on 8-6-2013 by Rocker2013 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 07:41 AM
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reply to post by Rocker2013
 


Great post.

I am having trouble believing that the population is accepting this in the manner that they are.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 08:00 AM
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There is nothing that can be done. This world's history has been written in that book that most of you hate. The Antichrist and one world govt system will happen just as it was described 2000+ years ago. Repent and put your trust in the Savior before its too late. Or, you can just continue to mock and ridicule and take the mark of the beast like a good hell bound goat.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 08:02 AM
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this video pretty much speaks on behalf of how I feel about people with those comments.

as slack as it is, I've given up explaining to family/friends why this sort of stuff is a problem. They believe that since they aren't doing anything wrong, there's no issue. I've tried to say "we'll what happens when the things you do that are 'safe' now are deemed 'illegal' or whatever in the future, will it still be ok then?" But get an eye roll and a comment about being paranoid.
edit on 8/6/2013 by bkaust because: (no reason given)
edit on 8/6/2013 by bkaust because: fixing you tube link. Stupid androids.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 08:22 AM
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I have two suggestions concerning the reasons why more people aren't up in arms over these intrusions into their private details:

* All of these initiatives began under Bush--most of them in 2001--which mean they've been running for 12 years already. The fact that most people were totally unaware of this until now proves these initiatives had no discernible impact on the lives of the people being monitored. If something runs for 12 years without changing your life in any perceptible way, it's difficult to get angry about it when you finally learn what's been going on.

* All of these initiatives are 100% legal, and have operated with complete court approval. This makes it difficult to claim that civil liberties and constitutional rights are being infringed. Moreover, as previously noted, the alleged infringement of civil liberties has gone competely unnoticed by the alleged victims for 12 years, which suggests (a) there was no actual infringement, or (b) there was, but it didn't actually change anything. Either way, people have nothing to be frightened about. It seems that for the vast majority of people, 'you have nothing to fear if you've done nothing wrong' is entirely correct.

On a final note, I think it's amusing that conspiracy theorists are claiming vindication on the grounsd that 'This is what we said all along.' I have two thoughts about that.

Firstly, considering the conspiracy theorist community has about 5 million consiracy theories on its plate at any given time--and constantly produces new ones--it's not entirely unexpected that one of them will at least appear to be correct... EVENTUALLY.

Secondly, can anyone direct me to a conspiracy theorist who accurately predicted these Bush-implemented data monitoring initiatives long before they were implemented? I doubt it. Most conspiracy theories are either too specific to be fulfilled by anything but the most extraordinary set of details--which are so unlikely that they never eventuate--or so vague that a subjective interpreter can consider them 'fulfilled' under almost any circumstances whatsoever (just like religious 'prediction.'

This issue is not 'bigger than Watergate.' Watergate was illegal. By contrast, these Bush-implemented data monitoring initiatives are entirely legal.
edit on 8/6/13 by Sankari because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 08:36 AM
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Having a s**t isn't illegal, you are doing nothing wrong, assuming you do it in a proper w.c. (or if you're camping, you don't litter etc). But I don't want someone standing next to me while I do it. It's PRIVATE.
The terrorism threat they use to scare us into accepting their s**t is so stupid, it's almost a joke.
They are doing it because they know, sooner or later, it's going to be US that they need to protect themselves from so it's US they've got to watch. And the US are just ordinary people who they have kicked so much, we will eventually kick back. We're all nice and tidy for them on ATS, but there are others who aren't on forums like this, and they must also be 'available' to them.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by Sankari
* All of these initiatives began under Bush--most of them in 2001--which mean they've been running for 12 years already. The fact that most people were totally unaware of this until now proves these initiatives had no discernible impact on the lives of the people being monitored. If something runs for 12 years without changing your life in any perceptible way, it's difficult to get angry about it when you finally learn what's been going on.


There is no evidence that the extensive nature of this monitoring has been in effect for those 12 years. There is evidence to suggest that the massive trawling of data is comparatively new. Take a look at the leaked powerpoint presentation and you can see that Apple only joined the collective of data gathering last year.

These companies have not been allowing access to their systems for 12 years, to suggest so is false. In addition, those companies are denying that they gave permission for their systems to be open to such intrusion, meaning - if true - the US government has been ILLEGALLY hacking and mining the data of PRIVATE companies.


Originally posted by Sankari
* All of these initiatives are 100% legal, and have operated with complete court approval. This makes it difficult to claim that civil liberties and constitutional rights are being infringed. Moreover, as previously noted, the alleged infringement of civil liberties has gone competely unnoticed by the alleged victims for 12 years, which suggests (a) there was no actual infringement, or (b) there was, but it didn't actually change anything. Either way, people have nothing to be frightened about. It seems that for the vast majority of people, 'you have nothing to fear if you've done nothing wrong' is entirely correct.


They most certainly are not legal.
If the NSA, DHS, FBI and CIA (etc) have been accessing the private computer systems of private companies without presenting those companies with the legal requests and permissions to do so they are a fundamental breach of law.

The law, as I understand it, does not allow the UK or US governments to spy on their own citizens without individual court requests. Even if one of those parties requests another government or foreign agency to do so on their behalf, they are still gaining that information ILLEGALLY.

If I pay someone to hack the computer systems of a bank and transfer funds to me, am I innocent? Have I not taken part in a crime? The same applies here.

The fact that a crime has taken place is not rendered irrelevant simply because the criminal party has used another party to break the law for them.


Originally posted by Sankari
This issue is not 'bigger than Watergate.' Watergate was illegal. By contrast, these Bush-implemented data monitoring initiatives are entirely legal.
edit on 8/6/13 by Sankari because: (no reason given)


See above.
The documents leaked suggest that under PRISM these agencies have access to the computer systems of private companies such as Google, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook and others. Google has stated on record that they have not supplied this access and only comply with legal requests for information on individuals when presented with a legal request for that specific information. So if access is possible as stated in the documents outlining PRISM, and these companies have not provided that access, then the only reasonable explanation is that these government agencies have illegally hacked and mined the private data of private individuals through attacking private companies.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 09:07 AM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 


Really I expected them to monitor everything after 9/11. Phone, email, credit cards, viewing habits, browsing habits. They probably have some algorithm to say, hey maybe we should look into this guy based on A,D, and H.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 09:51 AM
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In the US, we are forced to pay for our government to spy on us. I'm paying for the gov to read this and make a note about it somewhere. It's just wrong. If your going to spy on me, don't make me fund it.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 09:59 AM
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I know they cannot have enough people to monitor all traffic on the web, that would end unemployment everywhere.
So, they must have computers programmed to flag key words and phrases for later examination by real people to determine if action is desirable. If people started adding some of these key words and phrases in everything they post, Aliens control the CIA, it could overwhelm their monitoring systems and render then potentially useless.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 10:18 AM
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reply to post by Rocker2013
 


I'm just wondering when the owners are going to realize, they got no worries
and just do what ever it is their going to do. What ever the goal is just do it !
It's obvious no one's gonna do squat.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 10:43 AM
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Let's all calm down and deal RATIONALLY over the situation, so that we all may not become manipulated by others to become canon fodder of those whom have intentions to divide, hurt and harm.


1. Most citizens fear such intrusions of privacy and is real, for none of us, none is an angel. Let' be honest, for only in acknowledging truths can we ever hope to find solutions.

We do not want such information to be archive and some years later down the road, when we had matured and changed, be held accountable or blackmailed for our past discretions, more so for those who are seeking for public office.

Today, President Obama's administration may be benevolent, and will not do such a thing, but what about FUTURE administrations with such powers of information on their hands? Will they, can they, be as benevolent?


2. Equally, let us be honest too that there are evil persons HIDING in our midst whom do have the intentions to cause hurt and harm to others, such as criminals, pedophiles, bankers, corrupted,racists, discriminatorists, druggies, terrorists, insane minds, etc whom uses our communications systems to carry out their atrocities upon innocent humans.

The greatest trick the Devil had done is to prove that he does not exist. And those evil misanthropes hiding in our midst had done the same, using our laws and liberty against us, and the deluded support them in crying that they do not exists in our midst, as if an evil misanthrope would put on a shirt which says 'I am a criminal, arrest me now'.

NSA and FBI have a duty to defend and protect by all means possible, even stopping crimes and attack before it can happen and hurt caused to innocents.

Its act and approved by the judiciary was meant to protect and defend innocent civilians, and there are safeguards within that jurisdiction to not use it for anything else which will not be upheld by the judiciary in a court of law except for what is meant for - stopping crimes and terrorism.


3. BUT MOST CRITICALLY OF ALL - WHO leaked this NSA info?

NSA is an uber secret agency and YET - it had proven itself vulnerable, to have its secret information revealed not only to the public, but to the criminals and terrorists as well, whom will now take better precautions to avoid detection so that they can kill, hurt and harm MORE innocents.

WHO LEAKED THE INFO?

And WORSE, the timing was just right for China's President Xi visit to USA, a time when USA was going to confront China to hold them accountable for stealing american tech and science secrets, but now that the press is going on a circus villifying the american govt of spying on its own people - never mind that it was for a different purpose - USA will have a hard time to convince China who is laughing behind their backs.


WHO IN NSA SOLD OUT USA'S SECRETS TO CHINA WHO LEAKED IT TO THE UK AND USA PRESS who then went to the circus with it???

May the pepertrator be caught, and NSA's liberal governance that resulted in organizational negligence be tightened up, or worse will happen if leaking national secrets becomes a hobby of those whom had sworned to defend and protect America in such secret organizations.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 10:45 AM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 


Propaganda has conditioned people to be more afraid of terrorism than Fascism in the US.
Propaganda has installed "you're either with us or against us" binary thinking.

That's all you need.

I don't believe this is the first outbreak of full on Fascism. I believe it started in earnest with WW1.
The common thread is the idea of the "enemy". They have been different through the years.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 10:49 AM
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The frog has been in the pot for a long time and the water is too hot to jump out now.

My GF has the attitude, "Were you hurting before?"

A good friend we know had it all going for him. He owned a couple of nice properties, a nice house and big pole barn, he worked from home doing CAD, he married his sweetheart, then he got involved in the sovereignty movement. His attitude changed and he lost his job, got blackballed, lost his property, got divorced and now DJs for a living. Drugs and alcohol were not a factor in this guy's life.

He wasn't hurting before he saw the "truth" about the system, ignorance is bliss. He's not in a great place now by comparison. He never got out of the system either.

This is basically how the better half thinks of all this, "go along to get along" and as my Great Grandmother would say, "Dats da vay it is. Vhat you gonna do?"
edit on 8-6-2013 by MichiganSwampBuck because: Typo



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by InverseLookingGlass
Propaganda has conditioned people to be more afraid of terrorism than Fascism in the US.
Propaganda has installed "you're either with us or against us" binary thinking.

That's all you need.


Terrorism and crimes are NOT propaganda. They are real and exists in our world.

The only propaganda that exists are the screams of lies that terrrorism and crimes did not happen, it cannot be stopped and all humans die only of natural old age.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 01:13 PM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 

Easy.. They have been slowly conditioning us to accept this before leaking this big story. They use the old proven technique of boiling a frog a live. If you put the frog in scolding hot water it will immediatly try to jump out.
If you instead slowly up the heat then they will stay in pot and not even notice that they are being cooked alive until it is too late.

It is that easy to manipulate humans.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 01:25 PM
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We live in the Information Age.

Information = Knowledge

Knowledge = Power

DUH!

To the people who are just now starting to get pissed off about this…I have no sympathy for you. You deliberately kept yourselves from educating yourself. You refused to see reality for what it is and stuck to the MSM teat.

This program has been known about for years, by those who really have no power over you. You just wouldn’t listen.

And now you’re surprised?

The ignorance of the average American has me more irritated than this Admin. And that is saying something.



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 01:30 PM
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reply to post by TDawgRex
 

Most Americans did NOT know that this was happening. And the OP was surprised about the LACK of REACTION.
So just because you knew this already you are going to just continue like normal and accept this crap??
If so then that is exactly the reaction the government was hoping for and they did a good job with conditioning you.

Even a year ago most people would call you CRAZY for even suggesting that such programs exist. Now you act like everyone knew all along which is completely bull. I surely knew and tried to wake people up but was called a crazy conspiracy nutcase for doing that.
edit on 8-6-2013 by juleol because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 01:46 PM
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I would imagine that REAL terrorists either don't go on line as they know it is watched and scrutinized or they are for 'some reason' ABOVE monitoring on the internet!
So the purpose of monitoring every Tom, Dick and Harry on the net? Well, if you need to make money, a good way is to have a HUGE prison industry! Then make a list of everyone who, for example, looks at pornography. Make looking a porn illegal. Arrest everyone on the list ...........and imprison them.......for a LONG time! The tax payers can pay for the incarceration but the rich 'friends' that own the prison industry get very RICH off the backs of the tax payers. Then make a 'product' illegal. Everyone who has bought it.......arrest them.......imprison them? Make a certain web site illegal, a book or anything infact and lock the 'criminals up'! Think of the money you could make leeching and parasiting over everyone on the planet!
If you're not or think you're not doing anything wrong..........you soon could be!!

My advice, throw away your computer, your mobile phone and your TV but then you'll probably go on a list for that to........



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by juleol
 


Yep, a year ago and even further, people called me crazy. But I knew what I knew and it was not buried information.

I was angry at first but have gone to the annoyed phase. Please tell me me how to stop these programs. I would like to know.

I have accepted that the programs exist, but I haven't accepted the programs, if you know what I mean. I'm almost done beating my head against the wall, not quite there though, but close. I'm thinking it's getting to be time to move on.

And if you look at all the MSM webpages, most of this news is starting to be already buried under other stories.

Let people believe what they want...That's the way they like it. Reality has no place in their world.
edit on 8-6-2013 by TDawgRex because: Just a ETA





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