Water baptism

i have heard that baptism is an occult ritual which 'seals the heart chakra',
which prevents one from 'ascending'.
however, i am not an expert in these matters, maybe you could ask that 'initiate' dude and he will give us the answer!

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by deadeyedick
]Doesn't Lazarus story make this verse hard to understand? And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I don't see how producing an argument against the Lazarus event helps your case.

The decisive point against your theory is this- the total absence of any evidence.
If it had happened that way, there is no earthly reason why the gospels should not have said so.

I agree with you i failed to transition into that verse coherently. What i was getting at is that the verse could be used against my argument but since we all accept it and lazarus that would nullify any significance that verse would have in this case too and also reincarnation. The meaning i get out of that verse is that when we die there is some form of judgement that takes place other than what happens at judgement day and that judgement at death is what can cleanse you and if there is someone of faith like John had then doing the baptizing then ones life can be restored. It is an act of faith that is similar to the cross in some ways.

reply to post by deadeyedick

that none of that is relevant to today because Jesus the son of GOD won all power in these matters on the cross.

Then basically, you are disputing the "Great Commission" passage Matthew 28.

…18And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you: and, see, I am with you always, even to the end of the world. Amen.

reply to post by pthena

v2 begins with KAITOIGE- "and yet"- which Westcott explains as " a correction of the report which has just been quoted" (ie v1)
The crucial words for the translation are ALL HOI MATHETAI AUTOU- "but his disciples".
MATHETAI is in the nominative case, not the accusative. In other words, it cannot be the object of "Jesus baptised".
It has to be an alternative subject of the verb; "It was the disciples who baptised".

Originally posted by tinhattribunal
i have heard that baptism is an occult ritual which 'seals the heart chakra',
which prevents one from 'ascending'.
however, i am not an expert in these matters, maybe you could ask that 'initiate' dude and he will give us the answer!

I am suggesting that a real baptism has probably not happened since it was covered up if it was. That initiate dude is devilishly deceptive in acts of faith and trust in an unseen system that GOD has created. If you take a good look around ats you will see that the dark ones have amped up their presence and are preparing a big deception. It would be cool to get a off the cuff response on this subject from the other side.

reply to post by pthena


All i see there is Jesus delegating his authority but perhaps i missed your connection. I did mention that all power we see good or bad is of him to save or deceive.

reply to post by DISRAELI

It has to be an alternative subject of the verb; "It was the disciples who baptised".

That would imply then that the disciples had already been taught to baptize, either by John, Jesus, or some other party.

Since Jesus hadn't died yet, and neither did the disciples understand that Jesus was going to die, then that baptism would not have been into the death and resurrection but would have had some other significance. "Repentance?"

reply to post by deadeyedick

Maybe a better question would be if you was there and witnessed this act in the name of GOD with the son of man watching would you have enough faith in GOD to let go of the flesh or would you rebuke the son of GOD as your savior and join the stick parade?

I would rely on myself as my own master and savior. I am the only one who can solve my problems, repair my mistakes, and find the path that's right for me. There's no point in pretending otherwise.

reply to post by pthena

In the Greek, is it ambiguous as to whether it should mean "only the disciples baptized" or "baptized only his disciples"?

It may be both. I know that upon the return Jesus will give power to his elect and they will spread it to the believers. The top down method seems logical.

reply to post by deadeyedick

It may be both. I know that upon the return Jesus will give power to his elect and they will spread it to the believers. The top down method seems logical.

Ah, so it's an exclusive deal then, like a cult. Join us and share in our power, or choose your own way and be garbage. This is a perfect setup for divide and conquer, methinks. I can smell oppression on the wind already.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


So no faith bathes for you. Maybe try a good luffa sponge to scrub that sin away.
Would you do it if you witnessed the miracle for yourself?

reply to post by pthena

I don''t have any answer except the one you've suggested. I'm happy to go with that one.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by deadeyedick

 

It may be both. I know that upon the return Jesus will give power to his elect and they will spread it to the believers. The top down method seems logical.

Ah, so it's an exclusive deal then, like a cult. Join us and share in our power, or choose your own way and be garbage. This is a perfect setup for divide and conquer, methinks. I can smell oppression on the wind already.

Oppression does not quite fit what happens next try destruction.

reply to post by deadeyedick

Oppression does not quite fit what happens next try destruction.

You do seem to be talking oppression: "Submit to this or be destroyed"

I don't often quote 1 Peter, but:

1 Peter 3
when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.

Shouldn't a good conscience toward God be seen as the goal? How can anyone judge another person's conscience based merely upon some outward compliance to some ritual or creed? That doesn't seem right.

reply to post by pthena


Judgement belongs to GOD and is done on a spiritual level. That spiritual level has a platform in our reality and that will be as simple as bowing to GOD or one of his appointed. The reason is that by accepting Jesus as your savior that allows the Angels to wash away your sin which will allow the flesh to bow. It is a build up of sin and going against GOD that makes one contrite and keeps one from salvation. There are a few ways in which one can reduce ones debt. The best way was brought to us y the cross and sacrifice but so most do not accept that Jesus can heal the feelings of violence and sexual immorality put on ones soul and choose to act on the impulse instead of asking for strength to wait for the return. So day in and day out we hear of all the punishments being carried out in satans realm. Another way to reduce ones debt is to be sent to the lake of fire where ones debt will not effect everyone else. Another way to reduce your debt is to find the plant of cali or colo and dwell in or around it.

Originally posted by deadeyedick
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

None of that is worth a squirt of piss if they do not have faith in Jesus since he mastered the secrets of GOD. To me that is what most fail to realize is that any power wielded now or in the future will only be givin by Jesus in order to save or deceive. These pagan deities have already lost the battle because the cross was the price of the kingdom. Put your faith in false bs and your faith will be in vain.

Woah dude... I would never talk about your cult like that so I'm always a bit shocked when somebody talks about my gods like this.

But since you brought it up, answer me this. Why? Why do you believe that my faith is "bs" and that yours is the correct one? Why? Don't quote me scripture as a cop out because then I'll just ask you why you believe that scripture is correct to which you'll reply with a bunch of garbage about how it was put together to which I'll reply with a counter-argument which will end in the exposure that your doctrine is no more founded in accuracy or truth than mine is by any provable measure so... why?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by deadeyedick

 

None of that is worth a squirt of piss if they do not have faith in Jesus since he mastered the secrets of GOD. To me that is what most fail to realize is that any power wielded now or in the future will only be givin by Jesus in order to save or deceive. These pagan deities have already lost the battle because the cross was the price of the kingdom. Put your faith in false bs and your faith will be in vain.

I don't see the point of posting in these forums if all you want is for people to agree with you and suck up to your beloved god.

To hell with your god. He should be in the top ten of his book of judgment. I dearly hope he is, and if he isn't, then I will gladly offer him my seat in the burning abyss that he designed for the children he loves so much. That is my personal stance on the matter. You should check out my thread when you have a chance, and we can discuss the matter at length.

Here, however, I have provided proof that your baptism is not Christian. It is far older then Christianity. The Egyptians did it, the Greeks did it. I would hazard a suggestion that the Native Americans and Aztecs and Nordics did it too. Try Googling it, see if I'm wrong. None of the Abrahamic or Judaic or Christian faiths have any monopoly over baptism and the use of sanctified water, so your point is invalid. You asked for us to prove you wrong - albeit it with scripture, but that's cheating. You want us to prove you wrong using the same materials you used to make your point. I prefer to think outside the book, as it were.

And so here you have it.

edit on 7-6-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Afterinfinity, I normally cringe at some of the harshness you post to Christians on this site but I won't this time. He answered your post with hate and dismissive arrogance. I fully endorse your response.

reply to post by Cuervo

These pagan deities have already lost the battle because the cross was the price of the kingdom.

My answer was in the post you responded too. If you are receiving power from one of these pagan deities then you will soon find yourself explaining why you put any of them above the creator unless you are prepared to acknowledge the price that was paid by our savior. I know the one you have a relationship is real and that it can be a beneficial relationship however there is a spiritual power structure that they do adhere too because they were givin a job to do and it does not involve bringing you to eternal salvation but quite the opposite.

Water means meditation. The bible is a gnostic code for awakening the pineal. There are 2 ways, the dark hat and the way of giving, love and service to others. That is the right way. That is the Christ, we're all supposed to follow in His footsteps. He never meant to start a controlling religion.

www.spiritofthescripture.com...

Being dunked in water doesn’t change you. It can’t get rid of the sin nature. It simply makes you wet and is no different than swimming or taking a bath.

So did the Biblical authors have something else in mind when they spoke of baptism?...

In order to illustrate the above truth for you, let’s start with the Apostle Paul’s comment on the Red Sea crossing and how it relates to baptism. He states:

“…our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea” (1 Cor. 10:1-2).

In the above verse, Paul clearly links baptism with the Red Sea crossing. But what’s Paul talking about? Traditionally, the church has taught that Paul thought of this event as God foreshadowing what was to come for the church, and that literal baptism is now part of God’s commandment. But the Israelites remained dry as they crossed the sea. Likewise, being dunked, sprinkled, or submerged in actual water is not the true meaning of baptism, even in the New Testament....

“And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord…The Lord shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace” (Exodus 14:13-14).

Keep in mind that Moses is commanding the Israelites to stand still even as they are supposed to be walking across the Red Sea floor!

This aspect of standing still and holding our peace is the very act of meditation itself. This is the way to salvation!

The Psalmist reiterates this truth much later when he states:

“Be still and know that I am God…” (Psalm 46:10).

Originally posted by deadeyedick
reply to post by Cuervo

 

These pagan deities have already lost the battle because the cross was the price of the kingdom.

My answer was in the post you responded too. If you are receiving power from one of these pagan deities then you will soon find yourself explaining why you put any of them above the creator unless you are prepared to acknowledge the price that was paid by our savior. I know the one you have a relationship is real and that it can be a beneficial relationship however there is a spiritual power structure that they do adhere too because they were givin a job to do and it does not involve bringing you to eternal salvation but quite the opposite.

Why do you believe that? How can you be sure? If you have a personal relationship with your god and I have one with mine, why do you think you are more "right" than me?

I fully accept your god being an existing shaker and mover. I just don't agree with him ethically nor do I think he's any more omnipotent than mine. Also, I don't think either one of us is getting salvation. Because we don't need it. There is no sin that the gods didn't create and we are just reflections of them. We have no guilt to atone for and are only accountable to one another. My gods will not condemn you for worshiping the Christian gods.